A number of sources do suggest that very thing:
Death to Pigs, by Hendrickson pg501
Bugliosi interview by Merrick, 12-15-71
Bugliosi: "I'm the one that put Manson inside the gates of the Tate residence. I put him in there, not on the night of the murders, but a couple of nights earlier."
Manson's Right Hand Man Speaks Out by Charles "Tex" Watson c. 2012 pg43
It's believed that Manson was at the house looking for Terry the night before the murders and was offended by the new occupants.
www.mansonblog.com/2016/07/does-hour-or-three-make-difference.html
Grimtraveller said... "Back in 2005 on Col Scott's site, someone called GLH said that he'd spoken with Tex the month before and this is what Tex had told him "Manson had been to Cielo the night BEFORE the murders". I debated that with him, saying I'd heard that Manson had been there in March '69. He stood firm on his claim that Manson was there on August 7th (in the evening). ...and Manson was agitated the next day"
Jay Sebring’s business partner Jim Markham:
"I believe Manson had gone up to the house” — Polanski was away shooting a movie — “and Manson wanted to sell cocaine and marijuana,” he says. “He showed Jay and Wojciech the product. They were going to buy some of it, but the two of them beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them].”
truthontatelabianca.com/threads/true-detective-1970.2881/
Beausoleil: "He(Charlie) had been over near his [Melcher's] house and, as he said, he checked out the wires, telephone wires and the electric gates and exits from that property."
=======================================
Wait... wasn't Charlie down in San Diego County on that date, bringing Stephanie Schram down to her sister's house in Jamul and having dinner there, and then sleeping on the lawn of the residence of one of Stephanie's friends? Well, that is what Bugliosi claimed. But what was that based on?
Not Charlie. He admitted going down to Jamul but didn't put a date on it.
Not Schram. She couldn't remember the date:
Helter Skelter, pg368
"Stephanie was a bit vague when it came to dates. She "thought" the day they returned to Spahn Ranch was Friday, August 8, but she wasn't sure."
Not that traffic ticket Charlie got from the Highway Patrol near Oceanside on the way down. It's never been made public.
Not Stephanie Schram's sister, identified only as "Mrs. Hartman," who allegedly claimed that Charlie told her that "people were going to be slaughtered, they'll be lying on their lawns dead." Her interview was never released.
Not Stephanie's 'friends' in San Diego on whose lawn Manson and Schram allegedly slept on, the night of Aug 7 to the morning of Aug 8. There's no evidence they were ever identified.
=====================================
Though of course Schram never said anything about Charlie stopping by Cielo Dr. in the time she was with him, from her meeting him near Esalen to when they allegedly returned to Spahn, "arriving there about two in the afternoon" on Aug 8, in Bugliosi's version.
But Schram claimed it was Aug 5 when she first came to Spahn with Charlie. They had dinner there, and then in the evening drove off the ranch, but only for a couple of blocks before Charlie pulled over and they slept in the bakery truck that night. The next day, which would have been Aug 6 if Schram is right, they drove down to San Diego, spent the night, returning to Los Angeles on what would have been Aug 7. Note that during his trial Tex claimed he saw Charlie at Spahn the next morning, on Aug 8. There are now enough gaps in the timeline to make a trip to Cielo the night before very possible.
So why didn't Bugliosi use evidence of this alleged visit by Charlie up to Cielo the night before, at the trial? It would have been very incriminating to Charlie, whether the visit was to do a drug deal with Voytek, as per Markham, or to do a reconnaissance, as per Beausoleil. The only realistic scenario is that Bugliosi could not have entered this evidence without revealing the source, which might refer to the house being under surveillance before the murders, as Doris Tate claimed.
Submitted by Starviego. Thank You Starviego.
45 comments:
Thanks Starviego.
I have older submissions from you (and others) that I will post in the coming weeks.
Grimtraveller said... "Back in 2005 on Col Scott's site, someone called GLH said that he'd spoken with Tex the month before
He had spoken to Tex the month before what?
and this is what Tex had told him "Manson had been to Cielo the night BEFORE the murders". I debated that with him, saying I'd heard that Manson had been there in March '69. He stood firm on his claim that Manson was there on August 7th (in the evening). ...and Manson was agitated the next day"
I agree with Grim. Manson was there in March 1969 when Hatami was there and told him to get lost!
I believe that Manson was driving that stupid bread truck around until he returned to Spahn on August 8th when he learned that those 2 dopes were arrested for stolen credit card usage and he needed money to bail them out.
Why use stolen credit cards at Sears? Why not get some good steaks or something worth stealing? Oh wait, we're dealing with people who don't have brains.
Thanks Starviego for a decent concise article.
If anybody was watching Cielo, I would bet it was someone working for Folger’s father watching AF.
For the trial Bugliosi only presented what was needed to gain convictions. For the book Bugliosi was interested in selling books and patting himself on the back. The whole truth was not his concern for the trial or the book.
To me Bugliosi appears to emphasize that drugs were not part of the motive for the killings at Cielo. He also over emphasizes the “Helter Skelter” motive.
It would have been very difficult to prove that Manson was at Cielo on 8-7 to sell drugs to VF and JS. It was easy to prove that Manson spoke to many people of the “confusion” known as “Helter Skelter”.
Manson may have been at Cielo on 8-7, but Bugliosi wanted no part of that.
According to the book "Helter Skelter"
". . . Manson was cited for only having no valid drivers license in his possession. Manson gave his correct name and the ranch address, and signed the ticket himself. Officer Willis noted on the ticket that Manson was driving a 1952 cream color Ford bakery van, license number K70683. The date was Thursday, Aug. 7, 1969, time 6:15 p.m.
"That night, according to Stephanie, she and Charlie parked somewhere in San Diego and slept next to the van, returning to Spahn the next day, arriving there at about 2 in the afternoon.
According to Linda Kasabian, on the afternoon of August 8, Manson gave Mary Brunner and Sandra Good a credit card and told them to purchase some items for him. At 4 that afternoon the two girls were apprehended driving away from a Sears store in San Fernando, after store employees checked and found the credit card was stolen. The San Fernando PD arrest report stated that they were driving a "van 1952 Ford license K70683".
I don't think it's likely Manson was at Cielo Drive the night before.
Bugliosi apparently based his Jamul timeline solely on the traffic ticket issued by the CHP near Oceanside. From Helter Skelter, pg367-8:
"Manson... drove to San Diego... to pick up Stephanie's clothes.
Enroute, about ten miles south of Oceanside on Interstate 5, they were stopped by California Highway Patrol officer Richard C. Willis. .... The date was Thursday, August 7, 1969; the time 6:15P.M. The ticket, which (LAPD Sgt.)Patchett and (LAPD Sgt.)Gutierrez found, proved Manson was in Southern California the day before the Tate murders."
Bugliosi is quite explicit on the time and date of the ticket. Yet he only implies--but does not explicitly state--that this was on the way to San Diego(in the southbound lanes of I-5), but what if it was while on their way back from San Diego(in the northbound lanes of I-5)? That would allow Charlie to make it to LA in time for an evening trip to Cielo Dr. the day before the murders.
--The evening of the 7th of August, 1969, the four occupants of the Cielo house--Sharon, Jay, Gibby, and Voytek--are over at Sebring's house, located at 9810 Easton Dr. in Beverly Hills, watching a movie on cable TV and having dinner when the wires going into the house are allegedly cut, messing with the lights and interrupting the cable signal. Leading to the conclusion that this was an aborted murder attempt on the house's occupants, presumably by the same cast of characters that would finish the job the next night at Cielo Dr.
Listening to the recorded interview with the butler, the only time mentioned is 11pm, when the group finishes their dinner. Thus they probably would have arrived at the Sebring house that night between 9-10pm. This timeline is roughly consistent with Manson's alleged trip up to Cielo Dr., with a subsequent angry or even violent encounter with Jay and Voy as per the account of Markham, at around 8:30 to 9:30pm on Aug 7.
www.facebook.com/watch/?v=256052789067547
In Helter Skelter, Bugliosi implied the immediate precipitater to TLB was Charlie's anger for being snubbed by the audience at Esalen several days before. But the idea of Charlie being slapped around or disrespected at Cielo, just hours before a first murder attempt at Sebring's house, is a far more realistic proposition, IMO.
-------------
So what did Charlie do? Did he race back to Spahn, quickly gather up a kill posse, and then race over to Easton Dr. to do the dirty deed, somehow knowing Jay's location and address, only to be stymied by some complicated wiring?
Or did Charlie hang around Cielo, following them in their vehicle as they left the Cielo house, all the way to Easton Dr. a mile to the north? Did he then launch a plan to mess with their minds by cutting some of the wiring on their house? This would explain why none of the other family members ever mentioned this foray to Jay's house the night before. They didn't know about it. And if Schram was told to stay in the bread truck while Charlie walked up to the Sebring house, all she would know is that Charlie parked on some dark residential street somewhere and that Charlie walked off and didn't return for about half an hour.
Bugliosi claimed that Manson slapped Schram after being snubbed by the Esalen audience. Schram claims Charlie slapped her for messing up the chance to get a free meal, even before they went to Esalen. I speculate that was just a cover for Charlie slapping Schram after he was dissed by the Cielo residents, and before the wires were cut. Manson was so angry he couldn't control himself. IMO only!
From 'TaborFresca:'
"The 4-6-70 Brunner Statement/Interview could be used to support this hypothesis.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Is that when Charlie got back to the ranch with that bakery truck?
MS. BRUNNER:When he got back which time?
MR. STOVITZ: Well, no - you we can fix the date that you went out on August the 8th and you and Sandy had that bakery truck why, why didn't you take it before (unintelligible) bakery truck.
MS. BRUNNER:Unintelligible.
MR. STOVITZ: Charlie had to come back with that bakery truck sometime before you and Sandy (unintelligible) do you remember when it was?
MS. BRUNNER:He went up north and then he came back, then he left again, then he came back, then he left again, then he came back. He might have gotten back that day or the day before, I don't remember."
Starviego said: MS. BRUNNER:He went up north and then he came back, then he left again, then he came back, then he left again, then he came back. He might have gotten back that day or the day before, I don't remember."
Well that's as clear as mud! HA HA HA!!! I can't remember now but I'm thinking that Sharon wasn't feeling very well on the evening of August 7th and didn't want to go anywhere. 11:00pm seems really late for Sharon, being in her third trimester and being tired all of the time.
I know it's about a 2 hour drive from San Diego to LA, depending on how fast you drive I guess. I always assumed that Charlie got back to LA on August 8th.
Hopefully we could learn more details whenever Stephanie Schram releases the book she teased in 2011:
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/starcityradio/episodes/2012-05-16T15_57_33-07_00
Video of a parole hearing for Charlie: https://youtu.be/gp1_0N_3oj4?t=16
Charlie: "...ask him why the District Attorney moved the Highway Patrolman to the east coast, along with the traffic ticket...."
As far as I can tell, the CHP officer was never interviewed, nor has the traffic ticket ever been put into evidence, so Charlie may be onto something.
From the Schram interview of 2011 by Brian Davis.
6:35
Brian Davis: "Some of Charles Manson's supporters claim that Charlie told them that he was not at the LaBianca's house that night. Instead, he was on his way back to the ranch and you guys got a speeding ticket."
[the truck was actually stopped due to an equipment violation]
If true, Manson is claiming they got the ticket in the northbound lanes of Interstate 5, as I suspect.
Another one of your ridiculous conspiracy theories, Star ? You never give up. You're so prescient at ignoring and trying to manipulate actual evidence, heck, you could be CIA ! 😄
I can't help it. I gotta be me!
That's what Charlie Manson used to intimate !
The meaning of Prescient:
pre·scient adjective
having or showing knowledge of events before they take place:
"a prescient warning"
Starviego said:
Brian Davis: "Some of Charles Manson's supporters claim that Charlie told them that he was not at the LaBianca's house that night. Instead, he was on his way back to the ranch and you guys got a speeding ticket."
[the truck was actually stopped due to an equipment violation]
I thought we were talking about Manson being at Cielo Drive not Waverly Drive.
We were. The important part is Charlie seems to be endorsing the idea that they got the CHP ticket on the way BACK to LA from San Diego. And not TO San Diego, as Bugliosi strongly implied(but never explicitly stated as such).
According to Ed Sanders:
Manson & Stephanie arrived at Spahn's Ranch on the afternoon of August 6, 1969. They stayed part of the afternoon and evening at the ranch, then headed to San Diego, spending the night in the Twinkie truck. The next morning, August 7, 1969, they headed to Jamul, CA where Stephanie lived with her sister & brother in law, Mr. & Mrs. Hartman. At 4:15pm near Oceanside, CA, Manson was pulled over by the CHP and got a ticket for not having a license. They had dinner with the Hartmans and he talked about people dying on their lawns. Manson & Stephanie drove the truck to somebody's lawn and spent the night. That was on August 7th and on the morning of August 8th they drove back to the ranch, arriving around 1pm.
Wow I didn't mean to shut down the convo!!! I feel like Cat Stevens...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI2ToUNVh5s
That one guy looks like a "size LARGE". HA HA HA!
To reiterate, there was plenty of hard evidence to establish an accurate timeline in the week before the murder:
--The credit card slips used at the four gas stations where Charlie got gas on the way to and from Esalen.
Aaron Stovitz to Rolling Stone
DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AARON STOVITZ: You see, Manson has an alibi right up until August 7th, 'cause he met this girl, and he, uh, drove with her from Big Sur all the way down to Oceanside. And they made gas purchases on these stolen credit cards all the way down the line.
Helter Skelter, pg366-8
Aug 3 - "...sometime between seven and eight(am)(Manson) purchased gas at a station in Canoga Park, using a stolen credit card.
"On August 4, Manson, still using a stolen credit card, purchased gas at Lucia. ... he did it again the next day."
"...Manson left Big Sur on August 6, making gas purchases the same day at San Luis Obispo and Chatsworth..."
[And presumably any credit card slips on any gas purchases made on the way to and from San Diego.]
--The front desk register at Esalen, and any witnesses to Charlie's presence there.
--The people who encountered Charlie and Stephanie in San Diego. Meaning Schram's sister and the people at the house where they spent the night
--The CHP ticket given to Charlie near Oceanside.
Plenty of evidence, but all of it has been kept from the public eye! So there was definitely a cover-up going on. The only reason for this has to be that none of it is in accord with Bugliosi's own timeline.
Well Beauders what do you think about Luna being a killer? She has Botox lips. I don't like her.
"Aug 3 - "...sometime between seven and eight(am)(Manson) purchased gas at a station in Canoga Park, using a stolen credit card."
Charlie never got up that early! He was a BUM!
I don't like this new look.
It is not hard to get up early if you haven’t gone to bed the night before..l
Good point. I suspect Charlie and the others were doing a lot of speed at that time.
I made this comment and it disappeared. I'll make it again.
I thought "The Day of the Dolphins" was directed by Roman Polanski but I see it was directed by Mike Nichols. I thought Roman was working on that before the murders. What happened?
And Charlie is still a BUM!
Polanski was writing a script based upon the book “Day of the Dolphin’s”. He said that writing a script that the audience would believe was difficult due to holes in the story and figuring how to make the dolphins talk. He said that he lost heart for the project after TLB but did supply a script and movie proposal but UA rejected it with his $5M budget being higher that their max of $4M. He said he probably could have rearranged things to fit into UA’s budget, but he chose not to pursue that path. He describes this in the book “Roman”. You can read it free on the Internet Archive.
Okay thanks Tab! That makes sense. I think he was working on that script when Sharon came to visit him and left to go back to the states I think in July of 1969. She left him a note. I'll think of what that is tomorrow. :)
I worked as a projectionist at a drive in during the late 1970's, my grandmother ran the snack bar, my father was a projectionist there before me. I had some connection to nearly every movie that came out from the late 1960's to the early 1980's. "The Day of the Dolphin" came out in 1973, I never saw it though, I would have been 12 at the time, it was rated "PG". It never came to "my" drive in, it was at one of "our" indoor theaters. It was more difficult for me to get into "PG" rated movies at indoor theaters, although I could sometimes get in. In any case, I didn't see that movie until years later, and I don't think I've ever watched it all the way through.
Wikipedia says: The film version was originally going to be directed by Roman Polanski for United Artists in 1969, with Polanski writing the script.[4] However, while Polanski was in London, England, scouting locations in August 1969, his pregnant wife, the actress Sharon Tate, was murdered in their Beverly Hills home by disciples of Charles Manson. Polanski returned to the United States and abandoned the project.
To be honest, for me, "The Day of the Dolphin" was a science fiction "garbage" film you could "get away with" in 1973. Basically, Hollywood cranks out movies to make money, and this was one of a very great many.
This is the trailer--The Day of the Dolphin Trailer
Thanks Sunset! I would have worked as a projectionist, but I can't stand that flap sound.
I liked that movie The Day of the Dolphin. Of course I was probably stoned when I saw it. Well, not stoned, maybe rocked. Well I wasn't rocked maybe stoked. Not sure what would have stoked me. I'm sounding like Mr. Kimble.
Drive-In Movies were a big thing back when I was a kid. It was a Dollar a Car Load back then. We'd put folks in the trunk to get in. And if you got there before dark you could go to the playground and swing on the swings and wait until the picture started. Drive-In food was good. Hot dogs, hamburgers, Frito Pie, Ice Cream! You put that speaker on the windah and let it fly! You could turn up the volume and hope you didn't get static. And if the speaker didn't work you drove to another pole.
I don't remember when they did those ratings, but I remember in 1969 Midnight Cowboy was rated "X". Which made everyone go see it at the Drive-in because you didn't have to prove anything. I saw it at the Drive-In and didn't really understand why it was rated "X", except for that scene in the movie theater.
Beauders B&B has gone mad. Where are you? I hope you're okay!
I'm still here Katie. I'm really enjoying B&B. I still think Luna's father is Finn's
father.
Yeah Luna went haywire there for a while. I'm wondering what's gonna happen to her in the future. Well, I guess Luna's father is either Finn's Dad or Tom.
Katie, I have Soooo many memories from the drive in, I basically lived there for about 15 years. My grandma ran the snack bar, she'd let me sit in her car and watch the movies when I was a little kid. About halfway through the movie, she bring me out pop corn, pizza, a drink, a hot dog, a hamburger or a steak sandwich, (and french fries). She had a great parking place by the snack bar, and one of the best speakers on the lot. I could sit in the car by myself and watch the movie, (or sleep if I felt like it).
Later, she got me to work in the snack bar running drinks. I was only like 14, they didn't have to pay me minimum wage, I got "student wage", like 85 cents an hour. One thing I remember about that time was the day Elvis died, it's all my aunt talked about that whole night.
Later, I ran the projectors. I had to carry the cans of film in when we got a new movie each week, and put them on "our" film reels. The reels they came in on were often bent and would jam and break the film. Sometimes the film would break, 200 cars would start blowing their horns, I learned how to fix it fast. Our house was about 3/4 of a mile away, dad would sleep on hot summer evenings with his window open, he could hear the cars blowing their horns and always ask me the next morning, "did the film break"? (of course he knew it did).
After the movies were over, I had to pick up the trash off the field, a stick with a nail in it to pick up the used condoms and beer bottles. Every spring I had to put all the speakers on the poles, every fall take them off. In the fall, there was almost always a bees nest in the cap on the poles. I'd tap the top with handle of a screwdriver, listen for buzzing, then take the screws out, flip the cap off with the screwdriver, and run.
In the winter I worked as an usher at an indoor theater. They usually had better movies, but not by much. I remember "Grease" and "Saturday Night Fever" were sell outs, I think they were both "held over" for 3 weeks. About the only movie I remember people walking out of was "The Life of Brian". I was sitting in the lobby, after about the 10th person walked past me, I asked "why are you walking out", a woman said "it's sacrilegious"
Our drive in screen could barely be seen from the highway on a sharp angle. We had many "soft core" "R" rated movies and later "hard core" "X" rated movies. People would pull off the highway, we had to call the police a few times because they were nearly causing accidents. Many people complained about those "adult" movies. One of my school buddies was coming home from church one night and he said as they drove past the drive in, all they could see on the screen was "a big bare ass". His dad was a deacon in the church and they weren't happy about it.
I definitely got an "education" from those movies. There was an "X" rated parody of "Jaws" called "Gums". Brooke Shields appeared nude in the movie "Pretty Baby", she was only 12 years old. (I felt sorry seeing that little naked girl being used like that). Carol Connors was a model that appeared on "The Gong Show", (I remember seeing her on that show). Not long afterwards, she did "adult" films. I was a senior in high school and I'll never forget "Candy Goes to Hollywood". There was a character in that film called "Sarah Dawcett", (she looked exactly like Farrah Fawcett). Her "talent" on "The Dong Show" was shooting ping pong balls out of her hoo haa and a guy catching them in his mouth. (you didn't see stuff like that in this small town around here very often).
Those were the days. The intro to Candy Goes to Hollywood
Sunset, remember the videos that played at Intermission? We would bail out of the car and run to the Refreshment Center. I loved the Drive In Theater! Yeah I remember the cars honking if the film broke. I think they would also turn on their bright lights, like that helps. But most of all I remember my Dad having trouble with the speaker and moving from pole to pole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26pQNKEOXjo
I remember when the Drive-Ins closed, and it was sad.
Katie, actually, I don't really "remember" the intermission video. When I ran the projectors, I had I think it was a 10 minute reel for intermission, but I never ran it, they told me not to. Often, our intermission would only last about 5 minutes and people would start blowing their horns. I could look out the door of the projection booth right into the snack bar and could see when there were only like 2 or 3 people left, I'd start the second movie. Might be 1 minute, might be 10 minutes, just depended on how many people came in.
Hollywood priced the drive in's out of business. They charged so much to rent their movies, they controlled ticket prices. People aren't going to pay $25 for a ticket to see a lot of the garbage they crank out. The only money the drive in's had to pay the employees and other "overhead" came from snack bar sales, Hollywood took all the ticket money. Yes, it was sad when they closed, (especially for me)
My dad said when he worked there they had pony rides on the playground. The guy that owned the place would drive south, I think the Carolina's and buy a large quantity of fireworks for the 4th of July. My mom said they used to have shows on the roof of the snack bar. I asked her who, the first one she named was Dottie West.
One of the bad things for me was my high school buddies and girls would come and sit out on blankets, I couldn't go sit with them because I had to run the movie and stay close to the projectors. I sat in my lawn chair outside the door, usually with a big cup of Sprite, and ran and watched the movies, 7 nights a week in the summer.
You know Sunset, back in the day movies that ended up at the Drive In were considered "B" movies that would never make it at the sit down theaters. I don't remember porn movies being shown at the Drive In (not to say there weren't any), but mostly junk scary films that were churned out in 2 or 3 weeks and distributed to the Drive Ins. Movies like "The Last House on the Left", "I Spit On Your Grave", "Don't Go In The House", etc. Actually one of the movies I saw at the Drive In was Fearless Vampire Killers with Sharon Tate & Roman Polanski. That movie really SUCKED! LOL.
I was watching the old TV show "Dragnet 1969" last night. This "hippy cult" up in "Oak Leaf Canyon" was stealing payroll checks. When they walked into the apartment, "Gannon" said to "Friday", "Don't inhale or you will be higher than Apollo 8" (Apollo 8 launched in late December, 1968. It went to the moon, orbited 10 times, but didn't land).
Sunset I LOVED Dragnet. Sargeant Joe Friday. He had the best delivery. I think that is who the "library cop" on Seinfeld was imitating. I also love Adam 12. I think that was a spinoff of Dragnet. They show a lot of street scenes on both shows and I swear I've seen the bicycle shop where Gibby's bike was on the day of the murders.
B&B: Taylor has been diagnosed with 'broken heart syndrome". GET OUTTA HERE!!! LOL.
Yes that is so rediculous.
Lets figure out a new subject!
Now they are going to do work on her chakra, I wish it would cure my cancer.
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