Chaos by Tom O'Neill, pg369
"The most puzzling question of all," Bugliosi wrote, was how Manson had turned his docile followers into remorseless killers. Even with the LSD, the sex, the isolation, the sleep deprivation, the social abandonment, there had to be "some intangible quality... It may be something that he learned from others."
Here are some other candidates for that 'intangible quality.'
MENTALISM
Death to Pigs, by Robert Hendrickson, c.2011 pg323
".. Phil Phillips was actually being played by the workings of a "mentalist" ..."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism
...mentalists, appear to demonstrate highly developed mental or intuitive abilities. Performances may appear to include hypnosis, telepathy... mind control.... Mentalists perform a theatrical act that includes effects that may appear to employ psychic or supernatural forces but that are actually achieved by "ordinary conjuring means", natural human abilities (i.e. reading body language, refined intuition, subliminal communication, emotional intelligence), and an in-depth understanding of key principles from human psychology or other behavioral sciences....
Long Beach Independent, 10-28-70
"When I(Vern Plumlee) first met Charlie, he walked up and said 'Let me run your life down' and he did. It just kinda blew my mind. He said I had been in jail since I was 14; knew I was at McClaren (Juvenile) Hall; knew I was AWOL. I don't know how he knew."
Maybe Charlie was employing the mentalist tactic of 'cold reading.'
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
Cold reading is a set of techniques used by mentalists, psychics, fortune-tellers, and mediums. Without prior knowledge, a practiced cold-reader can quickly obtain a great deal of information by analyzing the person's body language, age, clothing or fashion, hairstyle, gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, level of education, manner of speech, place of origin, etc. during a line of questioning. Cold readings commonly employ high-probability guesses, quickly picking up on signals as to whether their guesses are in the right direction or not, then emphasizing and reinforcing chance connections and quickly moving on from missed guesses.
Dianne Lake 2022 interview
"He (Manson) had an uncanny ability to read people..."
MAGIC
Manson also used simple magic tricks to impress his followers with his powers:
Lynette Fromme says in Reflexion, pg19, shortly after first meeting Charlie:
"Later that night I watched cards, coins, and cigarettes disappear and reappear, slipping through his(Manson's) fingers. Not only did the tricks capture my awe, but his showmanship and spirit did too. I had to remind myself that this person could barely read..."
www.vanishingincmagic.com/mentalism/articles/history-of-mentalism/
These talented mind manipulation artists combine their keen understanding of human psychology with excellent showmanship and theatrics to create the illusion of extraordinary powers.
Death to Pigs, pg461
Good: We've seen him do, you know, what people call supernatural things. We saw him bring a bird back to life. We've seen him jump over things that no human being could jump over, all kinds of things.
Bringing a bird back to life is actually a fairly common magic trick:
HYPNOSIS
Manson apparently had sophisticated hypnosis skills, too:
medium.com/@donallogue/before-helter-skelter-2b86c0d3d8d0
(Danny Trejo) said (Manson) had hypnotic powers.
“That was the dude’s trick,” Danny said. “He survived inside by getting people high just talking to them. If he wasn’t a career criminal, he might have been one of those dudes who went to high schools and state fairs, the kind that brings people up on stage and gets them to do stupid things like pretend they’re a cat and sh**.”
Helter Skelter, pg162
Joseph Krenwinkel, father of Pat, re Manson:
"I am convinced he was some kind of hypnotist."
Death to Pigs, pg327
Interviewer: How could he control people like that?
Inyo County Deputy Sheriff Don Ward: Through suggestion--through mysticism--hypnosis if you wanna call it.
Shadow Over Santa Susanna, by Adam Gorightly, pg23
Most likely, Charlie employed various elements of hypnotism. It all had to do with the cadence of his voice, the intense look in his eyes, and the rhythmic movements he made with his hands and body.
Death to Pigs, pg244
Brooks: "Well, before when he put his motions in with it, all he had to do was start his motions and it's like, I would immediately turn on like a computer. Like, the button would be clicked and I'd become whatever machine or whatever tape was playing at the time."
www.woodstockjournal.com/pdf/RFK%27sFinalDayA.pdf
In late August of 1964 CIA off-oid Sydney Gottlieb put into place a project called MK-SEARCH.
“A member of the American Society of Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis was recruited for the purpose. The hypnotist was dubbed ‘Fingers’ by Dr. Gottlieb from the theatrical way he used his hands to put a patient into a trance.
ACTING
Amazing acting skills were also part of his repertoire:
Reflexion, pg88
"Charlie was full of characters who took our attention, among them a lounge singer, a cowboy crooner, and "Hyme Feinschleister," a nebbish."
Member of the Family by Dianne Lake
--He could change his voice, intonation, and accent depending upon who was on the receiving end.
--Charlie used the shape of his eyebrows and the muscles in his face to become different people. He must have practiced a lot in prison, because he could isolate parts of his face that I didn't realize could move separately from the whole, dropping his brows in unison and then raising up only one. Then he made a V with his brows that made him look like the devil. With every movement of his face, his eyes changed as well, like a shapeshifter creating the illusion of different people and personalities.
15:25
Dianne Lake 2022 interview
"He (Manson)just had this uncanny ability to morph into these different personalities and people... "
LSD
Charlie's employment of LSD to influence his recruits is well known, using some well placed props:
Shadow Over Santa Susanna, pg17
"On the wall of Manson's pad was a picture of Jesus, and below it Charlie often sat, sending out heavy vibes. ... Brockman was stunned by the realization that, if one dropped enough acid, then--like a psychelic alchemist--Charlie could manipulate the elements, turning himself into Jesus at will. "Charlie as Jesus was branded into my thoughts.... .. I knew I couldn't submit to whatever it was the idea of Charlie as Jesus expected of me. I only knew the man was playing heavy games. Charlie could plant that in a person's head, or create it, the same way a magician creates a bunch of flowers in the air.."
PSYCHOLOGY
Charlie also used his knowledge of human nature to exploit people's vulnerablities:
www.stlmag.com/news/years-of-chat-with-charles-manson/
Ken Dickerson, 20 in 2017, Manson pen pal 2005 to 2012
"He always wanted people to get rid of their ego..
--“He would make sure that any weirdness you had inside you, he found it.” Manson used that knowledge two ways: “He’d make you feel good about yourself, always make sure that you were happy in one way or another, give you compliments. If you didn’t feel comfortable with your body, he’d always say, ‘You are perfect. There’s nothing wrong with you. What’s wrong is other people judging.’” On the other hand, he also knew how to “make you as uncomfortable as possible.” Suggest homosexuality to someone who was totally straight. Keep people off base."
The success Charlie had conning people out of their property is a testament to his powers:
Death to Pigs, pg230
Watkins: "Charlie could go into some guy's house and talk him out of a ten thousand dollar piano."
The Family, pg50
-"Manson.. gave to Melba(Cronkite) a 1967 Red Ford Mustang which a New Yorker named Michael... had given to Manson."
Death to Pigs, pg258
Watkins: "When a guy goes off the ranch and comes back thirty minutes later and has a car and two hundred dollars and says somebody gave it to him. you know. He used to do that..."
Reflexion, pg120
Lynette: "I don't think I ever heard him directly ask for money, but it seemed that people couldn't wait to give it to him."
Conclusion
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism
Like any performing art, mentalism requires years of dedication, extensive study, practice, and skill to perform well and perfect.
Charlie developed a high degree of competence in the use of these mental mind-manipulation techniques. The question is, where did Charlie acquire these skills? He didn't get it from reading a book on magic tricks or hypnosis. Someone must have taught him.
We all know that Alvin 'Creepy' Karpis schooled Charlie in prison on the rudiments of playing the steel guitar. So why don't we know the names of these other teachers?
/end
Submitted by Starviego. Thank You Starviego!
224 comments:
1 – 200 of 224 Newer› Newest»Thanks Starviego. I think Charlie developed a variety of "survival techniques" while in prison. He was a little guy and I'm assuming the probability of him being bullied by other inmates was pretty good. Plus the people he was pulling these tricks on were on drugs, so that would make it even easier.
Bringing a bird back to life is actually a fairly common magic trick
Really? I would think the only way you could bring a bird back to life is that he wasn't entirely dead.
Katie,
Starviego submitted a video for the magic trick. The video somehow got lost during the communication between us. I added the magic trick video onto the thread.
Okay thanks Lynyrd!
Also Katie, why do Ridge and Bill need an entire room of spy gear to keep track of Sheila?
Katie if you have time there is a documentary on youtube about Jonestown you should watch. Just plug in Jonestown Terror In the Jungle. It lasts two hours and forty minutes. It was put together by the Sundance Channel. It explains the truth of the massacre.
Beauders, what I want to know is why they need a full time FBI agent to watch Bill's living room 24/7. For some reason, they think that the minute Sheila gets that ring on her finger, she's gonna start singing like a canary about all the people she's killed. LOL. I'll check out that Jonestown video this weekend.
(Danny Trejo) said (Manson) had hypnotic powers.
I didn't know Danny Trejo knew Manson. I looked up his Wiki account and found this:
While doing a stint in Los Angeles County jail in 1961, he met Charles Manson, whom he described as a "dirty, greasy, scrawny, white boy" who was allegedly a talented hypnotist.
Wow! I never knew that!
I think Trejo’s comments are similar to the oh so many people that were supposed to be at Cielo that night, but fate stepped in. An attempt to insert oneself into something just for the attention. In ‘61, the Wooly Hophead was still in his slick, pimp-like huckster phase, he had not yet experienced his grubby phase.
Good point Dill!
I watched that bird video. Something fishy about that. That bird was definitely dead. And he turned it over and it was alive??
I looked up the "dead bird back to life trick" yesterday. Apparently, some birds are easy to train or they might "play possum" in a crisis and pretend to be dead. I can't find the link again right now to post it. I suspect that's how Blaine and others do that trick.
Do any of the people on here that watch soap operas remember Thom Bierdz?
"Thom Bierdz (born March 25, 1962) is an American actor best known for his portrayal of Phillip Chancellor III on the daytime drama The Young and the Restless."
I watched a documentary about him last night. He had a brother Troy that was psycho. When Troy was a kid he would torture insects and keep journals about how he killed them. Rabbits, caterpillars, spiders, ants, turtles, flies, very descriptive and horrible. One of his drawings apparently depicted how he wanted to kill his brother, it showed a stick figure hanging connected to a battery with jumper cables. The TV documentary didn't even mention it, they might not have even noticed, but at the bottom of the drawing was a notation I certainly noticed. "Helter Skelter II"
Troy Bierdz eventually beat his mother to death with a baseball bat. Bierdz Brothers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_death
Apparent death[a] is a behavior in which animals take on the appearance of being dead. It is an immobile state most often triggered by a predatory attack and can be found in a wide range of animals from insects and crustaceans to mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and fish.
Apparent death is a form of animal deception considered to be an anti-predator strategy... When induced by humans, the state is sometimes colloquially known as animal hypnosis.
-----------------------
Another tactic that Charlie used was something known as the "Russian Scam" in magic circles. It's based on the theory of reciprocity. The magician gives you something--like a playing card--and he then gets you to give him something back--like your wallet.
Charlie of course was known for giving a lot of stuff away--cars, cash, sex with his girls--but you can bet he always demanded or expected something in return.
Sandra Good never blinks. That could be significant. Just sayin'.
Katie, what a week on B&B am I right did Ridge and Bill give Deacon money for turning on Sheila? Sandy Good is still crazy in my book but the one that still scares me is Nancy Pitman, just look at her kids if you want a fright and of course she lives in Oregon.
Yeah I think that Ridge and Bill gave money to Deacon for turning Sheila in. I can't believe that Sheila fell out of a 2 story window onto concrete and just got up and drove off.
Yeah Nancy is scary. Wasn't she involved in the murders of the Willets? She was another "rich girl turned bad". Charlie hit the jackpot with those girls who could get money from their Daddys. I've gotta say, whatever you want to say about Charlie, he knew how to read people to glom money from them.
This was on my Facebook feed this morning Lynyrd Skynyrd Tribute Medley of “Simple Man” & “Sweet Home Alabama” | 2023 CMT Music Awards
Thanks Sunset!
Some more evidence of Charlie's charisma:
love-it-loud.co.uk/cease-to-exist-charles-manson-the-beach-boys-and-the-death-of-the-sixties/
Cease to Exist – Charles Manson, the Beach Boys and the Death of the Sixties
Atkins: "And as he sang, the song that hit me hardest was The Shadow of Your Smile. Even before I saw him, while I was still in the kitchen, his voice just hypnotised me, mesmerised me. Then, when I saw him, I fell absolutely in love with him."
Manson’s ability to charm and seduce through either intimidation or empathy was a characteristic that he had developed as an adolescent during his time in a boy’s home. With little contact with his family, the teenager was forced to develop certain defensive traits and these abilities would eventually come into play in his adult life.
‘By fourteen, Charlie had an uncanny ability to decipher the unspoken vocabulary of body language. His skills were as honed as those of the best analysts,’ claimed Lawson McDowell in Before He Became a Monster. ‘It was not Charlie’s imposing physique that captivated them, for he was short and thin. Maybe his smile struck them. It was magic to be sure, but his fierce eyes were what they found most unusual. Never had they seen such eyes in a boy their own age. Those spellbinding, entrancing portals were something they had never seen.’
For his newfound teenage friends in the late-sixties, they too saw the mesmerising spark in his eyes and were overtaken by the commanding tone of his voice. ‘After listening to Charlie sing and talk, after dancing with him and making love, after sensing and seeing the power of his mind, I knew I would go with him if he asked,’ admitted Atkins ...
Charlie had instantly seemed more of a father to me than my own father.’ ...
Charlie was no hippie. He was an entrepreneur. He gave people things – drugs, his own shirt – to get things back. ....
Another big weapon that Charlie used to bastardize the minds of his followers was his relentless promotion of amorality--the absence of any morality at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorality
Amorality (also known as amoralism) is an absence of, indifference towards, disregard for, or incapacity for morality. ... Amoral should not be confused with immoral, which refers to an agent doing or thinking something they know or believe to be wrong.
Witness to Evil, by George Bishop c.1971 pg352
Manson told Jacobson, through the course of many conversations, that he believed there was no such thing as right or wrong and that he personally could do no right or wrong.
Q: (Bugliosi) He told you that it was not wrong to kill?
A: Yes
Alone with the Devil by Markham pg205
Manson told them there was no such thing as bad and no such thing as wrong. Also, Tex recounted, "there was no such thing as death, so it was not wrong to kill a fellow human being."
The Manson Women, a "Family" Portrait, by Clara Livsey MD, c.1980 pg196
She(Lynette) was admired and respected by Manson, unconditionally. ...she felt that according to Manson she could do no wrong.
Will You Die for Me? by Tex Watson pg67
I quoted Charlie and told her(Kasabian) that there was no wrong, no sin; everything anyone had was meant to be shared.
Witness to Evil, by George Bishop c.1971 pg7
I asked if they have any sense of remorse for anything they might have done.
"No guilt feelings at all," Fitzgerald replied. "They've been conditioned away from society's generally accepted mores."
IMO, it was this, rather than any inherent coldness or callousness, that caused all the inappropriate behavior by the girls in the courts--the singing, the giggling, etc.
Katie, sad news Elizabeth Hubbard, Lucinda Walsh on ATWA, has died at 89.
Beauders, I'm sorry to hear about Lucinda. Although it is ATWT, not ATWA. LOL.
Starviego, Charlie was a hustler, a con man, a bunko artist, a quick change man, someone who lived his whole life convincing anyone that his way was the only way or the better way.
It's not surprising that he fooled a bunch of stupid girls looking for love and acceptance from some guy into thinking that he was some kind of super hero that should be looked up to. Have you ever heard him sing? It makes you want to barf!
The men should have known better, except that some of them were "girl like" in that they needed male acceptance too. I think Tex falls into this category.
I think Tex was lying when he claims that he did everything Charlie said. The next night Charlie said it was "too messy" and he would orchestrate it.
Charlie and Tex were NOT connecting at that point.
BTW Beauders, Brooke is pushing the envelope when it comes to Ridge with that skimpy outfit, and I can't think of one reason that anyone would go after that hound dog with that untrimmed beard and stringy hair. Uggghhh!
Good catch Katie, which have I written more ATWA or ATWT? ATWA of course. Yes, I thought Brooke was going to tackle Ridge in her nighty. So that's how she sleeps when she is alone, ya right. Ridge definitely needs a shower, a shampoo, and a lot hair cut off his head and face.
Is anyone following the Lori Vallow trial? It started Monday. They're not allowing cameras in the courtroom but there are several You Tube sites that stream the audio for each day after court is recessed. I've listened to quite a bit of it and learned some new stuff I hadn't heard. I'm wondering if Lori will testify.
Katie, I'm keeping up a bit, with Lori Vallow trial. This woman seems to be crazier than Susan Atkins. She's been married five times, which I'm sure is frowned upon by the Mormon Church, which she is a member of. A lot of people have died around her. Is there more that her children and husband #5's, the Daybell guy, wife's dead? I predict she's going to turn on Daybell and throw him under the bus. Idaho does not have an insanity defense, so it will be interesting to see how she is defended. Idaho also has reinstated the death penalty, by firing squad. Lori is not being tried as a death penalty contender, but what about Daybell? I'm sure they will ask for the death penalty for him. I'm sure he now wishes he had never met Lori.
Beauders there is so much about this case that it's hard to begin.
This woman seems to be crazier than Susan Atkins.
I'm not sure when she turned crazy. I thought she only began listening to crazy stuff when she started up with Chad Daybell, but I've been listening to testimony and I'm beginning to think she was crazy from day 1.
She's been married five times, which I'm sure is frowned upon by the Mormon Church, which she is a member of
She's a member of the LDS church but she is/was involved in a cult offshoot that the Mormon Church doesn't approve of. At least according to testimony.
A lot of people have died around her. Is there more that her children and husband #5's, the Daybell guy, wife's dead?
Her 4th husband Joe Ryan died young of a mysterious death. I think they're looking into that one. Supposedly she was the last person to see him alive. Also her brother Alex Cox, the "hit man" for Lori, died suddenly in December of 2019. Which I find awfully convenient. They can both blame all of this on him since he can't defend himself.
I predict she's going to turn on Daybell and throw him under the bus. Idaho does not have an insanity defense, so it will be interesting to see how she is defended. Idaho also has reinstated the death penalty, by firing squad. Lori is not being tried as a death penalty contender, but what about Daybell? I'm sure they will ask for the death penalty for him. I'm sure he now wishes he had never met Lori.
You're right, Idaho doesn't have an insanity defense. I don't think that Lori will turn on Chad, I think she will blame this all on her dead brother Alex. I don't know what charges they are bringing against Chad but I do think he will try to blame Lori for all of this.
They went into some detail about the kids being dug up at Chad's place. It was so gruesome. I can't imagine anyone doing something like that to your own family.
And according to people who are attending the trial, Lori is still giggling and smirking.
She's a monster.
Chad probably wishes he had never met Lori, but he was dumb enough to have those kiddos buried on his property. He was attracted to her for the kinky sex. Sometimes you get what you ask for!
I've only followed the Lori Vallow case slightly, that whole crew seems somewhat "strange". Here's something I ran across if you haven't seen it--Spin That Wheel
Thanks Sunset. Lori seemed normal back when she was on Wheel of Fortune. They mentioned in court that Lori claimed that God is the one who put her on Wheel of Fortune, so I guess she was cracked even back then.
I made a mistake by saying Joe Ryan was her 4th husband. He was her 3rd husband. Her 4th husband Charles Vallow was killed by Lori's brother Alex.
Chad told Lori he had a "gift" of being able to determine if people were "light" or "dark", dark meaning they were demon possessed. So suddenly anyone who was standing in Lori's way or preventing her from doing whatever she wanted were determined to have "turned dark". The dark list includes Charles Vallow, Lori's own children Tylee & JJ, and Chad's wife Tammy. So conveniently all those people are now dead.
Tylee was only 17 years old. She was dismembered and burned. The only thing left to identify her were some teeth and bones. JJ was only 7 years old. He was wrapped up in duct tape all over his body including his face. He was probably smothered to death. Then he was buried vertically. How could you do this to your own children?
I could go on and on about this case, but I see it as a "slam dunk" for the prosecution. You can't explain all this stuff away. There's just too much "coincidental death".
Beauders I didn't know Idaho had the firing squad. That seems a fitting end for the fat pasty cult leader Chad. LOL.
As I stated, I don't know much about the Vallow case, but from what I've seen so far, there isn't much direct evidence tying the Daybell's to the murders. They are certainly crazy, but that's not evidence of murder. Jealousy motives and money motives appear to be very apparent, but that it still not direct evidence of murder. I just got approved for a Facebook room that discusses that case this morning. There is often information in those groups posted by friends and family members, etc. that knew the people involved. I'm in 2 of those groups following the Bryan Kohberger murder trial.
Facebook
Your request to join Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell Murders and Trial - Case Discussion has been approved. Now you can post and comment in this group.
In the Idaho student murder case involving Bryan Kohberger, internet speculation and accusations were insane. One of the people often accused by "online sleuths" was Kaylee Goncalves' boyfriend Jack DeCouer. They owned a dog together. After the murders, he was given the dog. He came in one of the Facebook groups and posted photos of the dog and gave updates about his health. It actually gave the impression the dog "missed" Kaylee Goncalves.--Murphy the dog
Thanks Sunset. Let us know how it goes in that Facebook group.
I don't know if the prosecution has presented any direct evidence connecting Chad & Lori to these killings, at least not yet, but there is so much circumstantial evidence it's overwhelming.
Chad & Lori were constantly texting & e-mailing each other, discussing the victims in this case. Chad even told Lori in a text message that his wife would die soon, and that was right before she died. And now her death has been ruled as asphyxiation, which means she was killed. And the only one with her that night was Chad.
There has been testimony that this group of people, Chad, Lori, etc. had regular "sessions" to drive demons out of certain folks, the same folks that are now dead. The same folks that Chad declared were "dark". It was revealed that the only way to get the really bad demons out was to dismember, burn and bind the possessed person. And that's exactly how the kids were found: Tylee was dismembered and burned and JJ was "bound" with duct tape.
These are way too many coincidences to just ignore.
I haven't had much chance to read through that Lori Vallow Facebook page yet, but what I saw yesterday they were talking about life insurance polices and who the beneficiaries were.
I don't know if you are interested of if this Facebook link will work for you, but there apparently is audio of Chad Daybell trying to change the beneficiary on a life insurance policy-- Chad Daybell audio
It might take a second to load, click the little "play" button on the bottom left and the little "speaker" icon on the bottom right to have sound.
I think Lori Vallow is on her way to being the most hated woman in the United States, like Casey Anthony was, for so long. Normal Mormons believe some crazy stuff, including the Book of Mormon claims Jesus walked in the United States and blessed this country. The Book of Mormon should be read by all non-Mormons, it the quickest growing religion on this planet, well after Islam. Idaho is a quarter Mormon and half of Utah is Mormon. I have Mormons in my family and I understand why the church is so important to my cousins. Lori's little cult with Chad Daybell is just nuts. Katie, I hope, Hope has an affair with Thomas, it would liven things up a bit. Did you watch the documentary on Jonestown? It is really worth the time.
Sunset thanks for posting that link. That was very interesting.
Beauders, I don't don't know very much about the Mormon religion but surely Chad and Lori weren't following those teachings. The cult that Chad started seemed to continually evolve according to his wants and desires, and later to include Lori's wants and desires. This stuff about living several other lives on different planets is just too bizarre. It's interesting that Chad's little cult group was mostly composed of women. In fact I think the only man there besides Chad was Alex Cox. It seemed to be like a little "harem" for him. This case is getting weirder and weirder by the day.
Travis Alexander was a Mormon. Jodi Arias joined the Mormon church so he would marry her, which didn't work out. Also Susan and Josh Powell were Mormons.
I don't know what's going on with Hope. She's acting like she's one brick short of a load. It looks like she and Thomas are gonna hook up. I think they're leaning towards Steffy and Liam getting back together.
I didn't watch the documentary on Jonestown. I just forgot about it. Can you post that link again?
Katie just put Jonestown Massacre on youtube search and a documentary should show up that lasts 2 hours and 40 minutes. It is very good, answers a lot of questions, and is worth the time. Regular Mormons believe in planet stuff. They believe that if a man is a good Mormon when he dies he gets his own planet, where he can call up his wife, family, and any non Mormon's he wants. It is an interesting theology. They also don't have a hell or some bad place.
I know very little about Mormons however, it seems to me they practice "polygamy" (multiple wives). That has been a contentious subject around Mormons for many years. I think Donny and Marie Osmond are Mormons. There are a number of "obscure" religions still around to this day. My dad was a preacher in a "Brethren" church for many years. We had his funeral there about a month and a half ago.
I'm not going to go into all the details, but some of these religions started from people breaking away from the Catholic church in the 1500's Menno Simons started a religion known as the "Mennonites". There is a Mennonite church right down the road from me. In 1693 in Switzerland Jakob Ammann and his group broke away from the Mennonite church, his followers became known as "Amish". Generally, the Mennonites and Amish refrain from "modern" things, although I think the Mennonites are less strict than the Amish. The Mennonites drive cars, have electricity, etc. The Amish are more strict and often drive horse and buggies. There have been many terrible car accidents involving Amish buggies and motor vehicles, often involving Amish children being killed. I almost hit one myself once. Going down a rural road, speed limit 55, around a sharp curve, and there was an Amish buggy going like 5 mph. I had to hit the brakes very hard. Amish buggies are fairly common in some places around here, the Amish tend to live in the same area.--Amish Buggy
I think the Mormons are somewhat different though. I think John Smith started the Mormon church. Here is a documentary about some of Mormon history, (I don't know if it's all true or not)--Mormon Documentary
Thanks guys! Sunset I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your Dad.
Beauders, it's convenient that the Mormons don't believe in hell. Because when you kill your kids it's pretty evident you're going there!
Chad and Lori think they are god/goddess, so I'm surprised they haven't sprung out of jail yet. You wouldn't think that such super beings would be bound by mortal iron. LOL.
I've been working today and maybe the rest of this week. I'll comment more in a few days.
Normal male Mormons also believe they will have multiple wives on their planet and that they are Gods on their planet.
By the way Katie, why did B&B make such a big deal about Stephie's birthday? Did miss something?
Wow Beauders, I didn't know the Mormons were so dangerous! Maybe we should put crosses up in their faces, like vampires, when we see them. Although I've never seen one in Texas. I guess they don't like it here.
I don't know why they made it a big deal about Stephie's birthday. I guess the writers went on strike for a day. How about RJ coming back to town today? And Deacon drooling over Sheila in jail today. Something's brewing there.
I think the prosecution is just about done with their case against Lori. The defense will take over soon. Although I don't know what defense they can offer. There is none.
I saw on a channel that Chad won't be testifying against Lori. I don't know if he was testifying for or against her. But she will have a chance to testify and it most likely will be against him.
Did you hear that phone call between Lori and her son Colby? That was the most heart-stopping thing I've ever heard. He was yelling at her for killing his siblings. My heart goes out to him. He's lost his mom and siblings.
I really think that Lori has lost her mind!
Katie, most Mormons are harmless, they make good neighbors, but they do vote conservative, which I don't like. My cousin, who is Mormon, and her husband lived in Texas for a while, so there's a few for you. She now lives in Salt Lake City, has six daughters no sons, and is suffering from breast cancer. I wish that Lori's trial was on tv, it would be interesting. She's obviously nuts but no insanity means that doesn't matter. Any mother who can kill her own children and then go to Hawaii and marry and have a great vacation has to be nuts. Sane women do not murder their children. I suspect that Lori has been at least a little nuts for most if not all of her life.
Well I'm sorry to say that I was right. The Coroner announced today that JJ was smothered to death with the duct tape. That poor little boy was smothered by his own mother, uncle or creepy boyfriend. You might wonder why Chad Daybell would want those bodies buried on his property, which was really stupid, but he probably told Lori that the land on his property was "hallowed ground" and the best place to bury them.
Thanks Beauders, I'm sure that most Mormons are harmless. There are a lot of people who join cults who aren't Mormons, and that includes the Manson Family.
I heard the testimony of Lori's sister Summer today. The testimony was pretty bland but the phone call between the 2 sisters while Lori was in jail was heartbreaking. Lori's sister Summer and her mother had been defending her on TV shows for months, saying that if Lori said the kids were "safe and happy" then they were. On the phone call she's pretty much screaming and crying about why didn't Lori tell them they were thrown away like trash on Chad's property.
I suspect that Lori has been at least a little nuts for most if not all of her life.
I agree. You don't just "turn nuts" after meeting some goomer. The nails were already in the coffin before she met Chad. They just got hammered in further.
Beauders, who is the guy that came to see Sheila?
That was a disappointment, it was Finn's dad.
Saw this on Facebook, apparently hair found on the duct tape on at least one of the victims matched Lori Vallow--Hair
Yeah I saw that yesterday Beauders. I thought he was dead or something.
Thanks Sunset. I heard about that hair DNA belonging to Lori yesterday. I also heard some very disturbing testimony from an expert who explained that Tylee wasn't just dis-membered. Whoever did that to her didn't just cut her up. The bones that were found were splintered and broken which indicates that someone took a sharp instrument and whacked her body over and over in a maniacal manner. We can only hope she was dead by then. I hate to say this, but it's been reported that Tylee had a smart mouth and argued a lot with Lori, and we know that JJ was autistic and acted up and spoke out a lot. Was the manner of death for these children "the last word"? Tylee cut to ribbons and JJ's mouth duct taped shut?
I think the defense will start in about a week. I can't imagine what defense they will have for Lori. People who were close to her have testified against her. There is no defense. The only thing they can do is (a) try to blame it all on Chad Daybell or (b) try to have experts on the stand that say she's nuts and brainwashed.
Katie, I guess we can all just wish that someday that crazy woman will understand what she has done and she herself, knows she is evil. She will not be popular in prison. Katie do you what is the problem between RJ and Thomas?
Beauders I guess RJ is mad at Thomas for making that phone call to CPS and using Brooke's voice. I don't really remember a lot about RJ.
Being nuts and/or brainwashed is not an allowable defense in Idaho. Katie the rift between RJ and Thomas seems older than Thomas calling CPS on himself. Oh well no big deal gotta remember soaps are fiction.
Beauders I guess Thomas & RJ don't like each other because they have 2 different mothers who hated each other.
The prosecution rested yesterday in the Vallow case, and the defense isn't going to say anything. I heard someone make a comment that the defense must think the prosecution didn't prove guilt, but I think it's because they don't have a defense. They can't put Lori on the stand because she's got a lot of "splainin' to do and there's no one else to put on the stand in her defense. Her own family testified against her.
Those text messages that were recovered in Lori's ICloud account were really hard to listen to. Chad actually said he was going to "turn up the pain" on the children. That's heart breaking to imagine how those kids died.
Chad's attorney has been in court for this trial and I would imagine he's telling Chad to just plead guilty to a lesser charge because if he goes to trial, he's gonna get the death penalty.
So it is always interesting when Defense chooses not to put on a case. While some may view at it as a strategy of a directed verdict, it typically does not work out that way. Jury’s are fickle and they notice many things. While defense counsel may view it as a case was not made, many times a jury will see it as the defendant was guilty but did not want to show how weak their case was. In a case like this, she would have been better off taking an Alford plea.
Thanks Dill. Lori's attorneys are public defenders I think. I think they are in over their heads on this case. There are just too many text messages that include Lori in these murders. Speaking of Lori, I've heard that she usually smirks, giggles and acts silly during testimony. I know the jury can see that too.
What's an Alford plea?
An Alford plea is, in essence, a form of a plea bargain. It allows a defendant to maintain their innocence while accepting responsibility for the crime. It typically goes hand-in-hand with a reduced sentence rather than bearing the full weight of a finding of guilt. In this case, there is no way a conviction is not coming.
Thanks Dill, I agree.
I've got to relate something funny, well not funny "ha ha", funny strange. In the text messages that were revealed in testimony, sometime during September or October 2019, Lori and Chad had a fight. Evidently he wasn't killing his wife fast enough for Lori. She had already done away with her husband and children, but Chad kept promising her that his wife would die under random circumstances, but the deed hadn't happened yet. So Lori texted him and brushed him off, saying she was tired of being "second best" and "maybe he'd be better off without her". Then she stopped answering his texts.
Well, Baby-butt Chad started bawling and screaming because of the loser guy he is because Lori wasn't answering his texts, and then he texted her that "God told him" that since she's not answering his texts, that the "angels weren't protecting her anymore". He actually said that if you give me a "thumbs up emoji" that the "angels would change their minds and protect her".
She gave him an emoji smile, and his wife Tammy died days later.
This is an open and shut case. As Archie Bunker would say: CASE CLOSED! LOL.
Lori Vallow found guilty on all counts of conspiracy to commit murder, first degree murder and grand theft. She wasn't smirking today. She looked a little mad...
Even Stevie Wonder would have seen that verdict coming. The only bad thing is that Idaho had taken the DP off off the table early. Some people say that LWOP is worse, but that is not always the case. Some convicts do not give a shit about their victims,so they will do the time and never think twice about the harm they caused.
Thanks Dill. I think that it's a big wake-up call for Lori knowing that she will live her life in prison instead of dancing on a Hawaiian beach for all eternity like Chad promised.
I wonder what Chad's defense will be. He will probably dump all this on Lori during his trial, if that will help. I'm thinking that guy needs to bend over and kiss his butt goodbye.
If anyone is interested, there is a new Dateline on NBC tonight from 8 to 10pm Central time, outlining this case.
Like I said before, Lori will not be popular in prison, and I think she is vain enough that she will never accept responsibility and will always blame others. She will not have a good time being locked up for the remainder of her life. Life in Idaho is not easy, it is hotter than a furnace in summer and freezing in the winter. It is a lot like Death Valley. Idaho is mainly a desert, and prison have minimal heat in the winter and no air conditioning in the summer. I think Chad will be found guilty and given the death penalty, even if they try to lay it all on Lori. Remember the condition these children's bodies were in when they were dug up. That's where the case was lost for Lori, and most likely will be where Chad's defense will lose. On 60 Minutes on Sunday, they are airing a story on the wealth the Mormon Church has, a must watch or anyone watching this new emerging religion.
Quite the cliffhanger on B&B today, will Hope kiss Thomas or not? I cannot believe Steffy would ever leave Finn for Liam though.
Also I am surprised Lori didn't throw Chad under the bus, she must actually love him, in some sick way.
I saw Lori Vallow was convicted last night, but that's about as much as I know. I wasn't able to follow that case very closely, it wasn't covered much on TV where I am.
Beauders I don't like the storyline on B&B right now. They're making Hope look like a whack job that can't control herself because of her mother. I hope Steffy doesn't leave Finn for Liam. I want to see Sheila again.
No Lori isn't going to like being in prison and up until yesterday I really think that Lori thought it would be all over yesterday, she would be found not guilty, the shackles would fall off and she would run to Chad. Either that, or she thought God would rip the roof off the courthouse and a giant hand would reach in and grab her. Either way, when she was pronounced guilty on all counts and taken back to her cell that must have been a giant wake up call for her. You could tell by the look on her face that she was mad. All this time she's been in the court room laughing, smiling, smirking and looking around at everyone like she's a movie star. That stopped yesterday.
I heard yesterday that Lori told her defense attorneys that she didn't want to blame this on Chad or Alex. I just wish someone would spill the beans on what really happened.
Sunset, I've been listening to this trial on You Tube channels. It wasn't on my local news, but yesterday when the verdict was read they cut in on some major channels for the reading of the verdict.
Another example of Charlie's mental tricks in action:
Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered by Lester Grinspoon c. 1997
pg186
In a 1977 prison interview with one of the authors... When she(LVH) became attached to Manson as a father-substitute, he taught her to "get rid of Leslie": abandon the self that cut her off from the work, and allow it to die so that she could give herself up completely to him. She had to purge from her mind everything that her parents had taught her--what Manson called "reflections."
Starviego, Charlie was a cult leader. Cult leaders use all kinds of tricks to get followers. They look for weaknesses in people that will allow them to be controlled. Charlie used drugs to enhance the experience of people thinking he was their "leader". I think the reason he had more female followers than male followers was the "Daddy thing". Men aren't looking for a "Daddy", they're looking for power and sex. I'm sure Charlie learned a lot of psychological control methods in prison. Charlie wasn't "magic" he was just a grifter looking for people to control so he could feel better about himself.
Some cult leaders don't use drugs, they use fear. It's just as effective. Chad Daybell was one of those cult leaders.
When Cielo Drive was attacked, Hollywood went into lockdown. They were all in fear of these killings. That gave Charlie power in his head. The next night he wanted to be in charge. That gave him more power in his head. For once in his life, he was someone.
He didn't have a mama or daddy who cared about him, but he suddenly had a group of misfits who adored him. He was just as squirrely as his converts because it didn't take long for the law to catch up to him. He just wasn't as smart as he thought he was.
I'm still following 2 cases online, the Bryan Kohberger case in Idaho, I don't think they've even released the 911 call yet. Four Idaho students were murdered, it seems both the prosecution and defense are delaying. I think his next hearing is in late June or July.
I'm also following "Taylor Schabusiness". She apparently has a new lawyer after attacking her last one in court a few months ago. She admitted to strangling a guy, they found his head and "organ" in a bucket. I can't find the video now where the deputy in the court room apparently says into his microphone--wrestling with Schabusiness
Sunset I saw on the news that Bryan Kohberger was indicted by a grand jury to stand trial for those murders. That's another bizarre case. Why would he kill those people? Did he know them? Was he mad at them? I haven't really studied that case.
For me, I would guess the "why" of Kohberger killing those 4 students was drugs. As I've said many times before, whenever a murder is described as "bizarre" or "senseless", the first thing to look for is what drugs the murderer was taking.
Anyway, I don't know if he knew the victims or not. I don't think the victims had any clue he even existed (or very little clue), he might have stalked them however, for whatever reason. A lot of that case is being kept secret. They haven't even released the 911 calls yet, plus one of the surviving room mates doesn't want to testify. I think there's been court wrangling over that.
Apparently, just yesterday, Kohberger was indicted by a grand jury, he supposedly will appear on court on Monday, possibly to enter a plea. My "guess" is the prosecution got a grand jury indictment so they could keep the evidence secret. Witnesses would have had to testify at his preliminary hearing and I don't think they wanted that. A lot of this case is being kept secret. Apparently, they have Kohberger's DNA on a knife sheath found at the crime scene. However, there are "rumors" that one of the cops that collected evidence was under investigation for doing "something" wrong. In any case, Kohberger is supposed to appear in court, here's a news story about it--Indictment
Thanks Sunset. Just wanted to let everyone know that there's a 2 hour Dateline special tonight on the Idaho murders of those 4 kids. It's 8pm to 10pm Central Time. I'm going to watch it and catch up on this case.
RIP NFL great Jim Brown, whose name appears in the 2nd Tate Police investigation report.
I still have Jim Brown on a football card. My dad said he'd never run out of bounds to avoid a hit, every time he saw someone do that, I knew exactly what he was going to say, "Jim Brown wouldn't have ran out of bounds like that". I had no idea he was mentioned in the Second Tate Homicide report. Rest in peace.
Katie, did Dateline claim that Bryan Kohberger is a incel?
Beauders that Dateline was 8pm to 10pm and I fell asleep around 8:45 that night and missed most of the show. I was going to ask if anyone knows when they will repeat that show because it was a really good show for a while. I'd like the chance to see the whole thing.
What's an incel?
incel
a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually, typically associated with views that are hostile toward women and men who are sexually active.
I think it's "involuntarily celibate". A guy that wants to have sex but can't find a partner for whatever reason.
It's one of those new words that not everyone knows what it means, like LGBTQ, misogyny, narcissistic, etc. At least I don't know what they mean without looking them up. They are usually sexually related as nowadays, many people seem to think that other people want to hear them shout about their sexuality at the top of their lungs.
One thing the internet is always good for is jokes:
An InCel is someone who is involuntarily celibate. What do you call someone who is voluntarily celibate?
Married.
Try Youtube or NBC, Katie.
Wow Sunset told a joke!! HA HA HA HA! All these new words people are coming up with! Sounds like baby-talk to me!
Beauders I've searched for that Dateline episode and all I can come up with is a 5 minute snippet that advertises it. I'll keep looking.
Katie, this MIGHT be the recent Dateline episode, I'm not sure. I searched on DuckDuckGo, that gave me this Reddit link, it's just a plain youtube video, but I think Google hides stuff like that. I'm not sure if this is it or not though, I don't watch that show.
The Killings on King Road
Also, apparently We need trans people
If you Google "Dateline The Killings on King Road" the NBC Official Website Stream will pop up in the video options and you can view the episode
Unfortunately, I can't view it in Canada
Cheers
Thanks Sunset. I checked out that video and I think it's something that someone evidently uploaded to You Tube after having recorded it. That's watchable but I've noticed that sometimes the camera angles are off and you can't see people's faces for a few seconds then it clears up. I'll try watching it.
I can't believe that anyone voted for that crazy lady Senator.
Thanks Doug. I'll try Googling that and see if I can find it on the NBC Website.
sunset77 said...
I had no idea he was mentioned in the Second Tate Homicide report.
Here is the full quote:
the 2nd Tate Police investigation report:
"On 9-8-69, an appointment was made by Kate Saxton, aka Baird, Pegrum, and Marilyn Kirk to
talk with Sergeant Calkins at Parker Center ... Kate Baird is from England and had been an actress in that country for a number of years. She was married to
a male Negro by the name of Harry Fredericks Patterson Baird, an American.... According to Kate Saxton, Harry Baird is a close friend of Mohammed Ali and ex-pro football player, Jim Brown. All three of the individuals are active in a black power movement which encompasses both England and the USA. ... She is convinced that the homicides were a means of the black power movement in this country to show their force and strength. ...Saxton states that her ex-husband knew about the murders "almost as soon as they happened." "
Well I was able to watch the Dateline episode. Thanks to everyone!
I'm not sure why they zeroed in on Bryan but there are many videos of his white Elantra being near the crime scene before the murders and around 4:30am on the murder date.
They think that maybe one or two of the victims were targets. The others were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I don't know how one person can kill 4 people with a knife without waking everyone up. They still haven't explained that.
For being a really smart guy and pursuing a doctorate in Criminology, this guy was really dumb.
He didn't know video cameras would spot him? He didn't know leaving his sheath would incriminate him?
As far as I heard he wasn't classified as an "Incel". But they did say that he probably watched their Tik Tok videos and tried to hook up with them, and when rejected, he could find out their location.
starviego said...
Thanks for posting the quote of the Second Tate Homicide report mentioning Jim Brown. I had probably read that at one time, but it's been years ago since I read those reports.
Some more examples of how Charlie manipulated his followers, according to Tex Watson psych reports:
From Dr. Joel Fort's interview of July 1971, pg6:
"In recalling his life on the ranch Watson states that a "bunch of times Manson would give us a lot of acid and have us play games with make believe people there and us killing them. " "
From Dr. Joel Fort's interview of July 1971, pg7:
"...a form of brainwashing or re-conditioning (re-education) of the girls and Watson was carried out by Manson through a combination of social isolation, creation of strong dependency on him, extensive use of LSD-type drugs and moral corruption.
From Dr. A. Tweed's interview of June 15, 1971, pg4,7,8:
.... Every night, while they were under the influence of various drugs, Manson would work through their fear and resistance against killing. ... He became so confused during that period that he began to see imaginary people which were being "killed" in these situations which Manson was creating for them to visualize. .....
...Thus, Watson, while in a highly suggestible state of intoxication was gradually desensitized to believe that to kill was not wrong and robot like he was able to carry out the wishes of his master and dissociate his feelings from the action. This seems borne out by the cold, detached manner in which the acts were accomplished. All the while only hearing the voice of Manson within him computing his every action. He actually believed at the time that they were really imaginary people. It was in such a drug induced psychotic condition that the acts were carried out.
....At the time of commission of the alleged offense, while he did have the mental capacity to form the specific intent to commit murder, this was only because he had been brainwashed, programmed and desensitized to believe that such acts in themselves were not wrong and that what he was doing was right."
Manson was certainly a "master manipulator". He'd been in prison, plus he knew effect of drugs, plus many of the young girls he recruited had no "worldly" experience. Manson knew exactly what he was doing, unfortunately, his followers did not. There are many examples of "crazy" people being able to manipulate others, often to the detriment of others.
Here's a more recent example. This woman got people to give her billions of dollars for nothing. can't touch this
Leslie's getting out. https://www.facebook.com/cielodrivecom/
Nope, not yet. Newsom can direct his AG to file a motion with the California Supreme Court, which, on a 2-1 appellate decision, makes sense. Once before the SC, a couple of things could happen. LVH could be freed, she could remain incarcerated, she could be released pending review. This is far from over. As Newsom continues his shadow presidential run, he understands that capitulating on something so infamous can be very damaging politically.
I think she stays in. The Governor was given veto power over parole for a reason.
Thanks guys! Boy, the things you can get away with when you play politics!
Good to see you ColScott!!
I guess I can't call her "horse teeth" anymore. I think she got some new choppers. I wonder if "baby-killing" Tex is jealous.
Of course, Tex is jealous, he knows he's never getting out, unless the second coming happens, and Jesus requests his release.
Beauders, LOL. Tex tried his best to put the blame on Charlie and the girls, but it didn't work. Mostly because he's a DORK!
Update. I was recently contacted by a former classmate of mine and I think she's trying to borrow money. That's not happening.
Also, I listened to a You Tube video that suggested that Lori Vallow ate her daughter's leg. That was so disgusting that I almost puked.
Finally, I blew a perfect smoke ring. It only took one try.
Night y'all!
I love Santana!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Whgn_iE5uc&list=RDMM&index=14
Is anyone suffering from the smoke from Canada? Reminds me of Cheech and Chong.
I hope everyone is okay.
Another insight:
Chiaramonte, Peter No Journey's End My Tragic Romance With Ex Manson Girl, Leslie Van Houten (c.2015)Page n49
When Manson first met the pretty brunette Beausoleil brought with him this time, he dropped what he was doing to study her closely. Charlie had plenty of experience handling runaway teenaged girls like Leslie before. First, he tacitly implied he possessed insight into all of her lonely disaffections. For example, he used a common theatrical device to mirror her moods. By copying each changing expression or gesture Leslie made, Manson intended to show how well he could identify what she was thinking and feeling.
Leslie Van Houten was just like any other teenager in the 60's. She was very popular at school. She was a cheerleader. Then her parents got a divorce and her mother "made her" have an abortion. So that made her turn into a killer psycho? BOO HOO!
Charlie "mirroring her" reminds me of the Big Bang Theory where Howard Wolowitz used the "mirroring technique" to pick up a nurse at a party. LOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFIVCIR7LEY
I'm sure Leslie Van Houten's mother wished her whole life that she let Leslie have that baby. I think the abortion effected Lelsie more than most of think. I knew someone who had an illegal abortion as a teenager and when she lost an adult child, she felt she had lost two children.
Katie, Taylor's voice is really annoying. Brooke and Taylor's friendship lasted longer than I thought it would. Now they are going back to fighting over Ridge. Same old, same old and boring.
I know Beauders, SOSDD. The ratings probably plummeted when Brooke & Taylor had their "pact" so they decided to juice it up again. How anybody can fight over Ridge is beyond me.
Shadow Over Santa Susanna, pg17
" ... Brockman was stunned by the realization that, if one dropped enough acid, then--like a psychelic alchemist--Charlie could manipulate the elements, turning himself into Jesus at will. "Charlie as Jesus was branded into my thoughts...."
Leslie Van Houten was subject to the same mind control treatment:
No Journey's End My Tragic Romance With Ex Manson Girl, Leslie Van Houten by Peter Chiaramonte (c.2015)pg136
LVH "...one time, while on LSD, I'd actually experienced my own crucifixion. ... that was a turning point for me in terms of devotion to Manson. .... it was a hard chargin' trip. I saw myself bleeding from both my hands, my feet and from right here just under my heart," she said, pointing to the exact spot. "Like all the blood was draining out of me, and I just kept seeing Charlie's face in front of me the whole time. My whole world became Charlie and the ecstasy I felt led me to him. I thought he was the holy spirit of Christ."
Interestingly, Ella Jo had a similar experience on acid at Gresham, felt like she was "being crucified."
Has anyone ever figured out who Brockman really is? Katie if you haven't seen B&B today beware. There is a close-up of Thomas's pimply, greasy, pock marked nose, while Hope is fantasizing about doing the deed with him. Beware, I had to look at it twice, just to make sure I was really seeing what I was seeing.
Beauders, yeah who is Brockman? Why do all those cult leaders involve Jesus in this stuff? Isn't there anyone else to emulate? Hitler? Mussolini? Why would they involve Jesus in Bad Guy Stuff?
I've gotta say that I don't feel sorry for LVH. She's just another stupid ass that fell for baby-boy tripe. Reminds me of Lori Vallow and the Chad Daybell "god stuff".
How dumb can people be? No excuse for this type of behavior. It seems to be more prevalent in CA for people to believe dumb things.
Thomas does have an ugly nose, and I watched the B&B today. I saw a bunch of Hope stuff but I wasn't looking too closely because I was eating lunch and hoping to not throw up.
I don't think Charlie planned on killing people when he first got out of prison. I think he wanted to start a "family" because he never really had one, and he also wanted to play and record music, especially after befriending the Beach Boys. And he obviously didn't really care about money. His supposed orders to kill people doesn't really make any sense. I think he could think of a million other ways to get money. In fact, it doesn't really make any sense to go to people's houses and trying to get 100's of dollars. Most people wouldn't have that lying around the house. I'm starting to question Tex's version of what Charlie told him.
Also, can anyone explain to me why Donald Trump is being indicted for taking boxes of stuff from the White House, when every other President has done the same thing? Am I missing something here?
Trump refused to return them Katie.
Thanks Beauders. I didn't remember that. Did anyone else refuse to return stuff?
Speaking of B&B, (1) Steffie has had a boob job because every day she's got those things popping out of her top! (2) Taylor really needs to get a haircut because it's just hanging all over her. (3) Brooke needs to cut her hair because she's too old for that long stringy bleached hair. (4) They need a new Ridge! LOL.
This book lays out the tactics Charlie used:
No Journey's End My Tragic Romance With Ex Manson Girl, Leslie Van Houten by Peter Chiaramonte (c.2015)
pg24 FEAR
...Mr. Bugliosi discussed the ways Manson used fear to make his followers' sense of themselves disappear, so he could replace their will with his own. In fact, Bugliosi admitted, "Whether he perfected this technique in prison or later is not known, but it was one of his most effective tools for controlling others."
pg49 ACTING
When Manson first met the pretty brunette Beausoleil brought with him this time, he dropped what he was doing to study her closely. Charlie had plenty of experience handling runaway teenaged girls like Leslie before. First, he tacitly implied he possessed insight into all of her lonely disaffections. For example, he used a common theatrical device to mirror her moods. By copying each changing expression or gesture Leslie made, Manson intended to show how well he could identify what she was thinking and feeling. That's why they call guys like him "con [i]artists[/i]."
pg50 HYPNOTISM
Other witnesses corroborated the effect Manson had on each of his followers. Most agreed he was like "some kind of hypnotist" who savored the role.
pg62 ACTING
Tex Watson described Manson as a chameleon."And with each change he could be born anew... Hollywood slicker, jail tough, rock star, guru, child, tramp, angel, devil son of God," Watson wrote in his book, Will You Die For Me?
Beauders said:
Who is Brockman?
John Gilmore’s Joe Brockman may be a conflation of multiple people.
Brockman was supposed to be present the April 1968 Oxnard arrest (Nine Nude Hippies). Mark Arneson and Bruce Van Hall were arrested. After being arrested again in May, nothing further is reported concerning Van Hall. Arneson is a Spahn during February to early May in 1969 and is given Hinman’s van in late July/early August.
Brockman was supposed to have been at Barker. There are no reports of Arneson or Van Hall being present at Barker.
Brockman was supposed to have known Atkins before Manson. There is no report of any male associated with the Family knowing Atkins before Manson.
TaborFresca thanks that's probably why I'm confused about Brockman. Katie, everyone else gave back their files, Trump is in trouble.
Katie, did you like the guys on B&B flexing their muscles, or did you think it was silly like me?
Beauders I've said for a long time now that the writers on B&B have got to be women. They make all the men look like "arm candy" and when they do have lines to deliver they're always just whining about something. Except for $ Bill.
I like seeing Finn topless but that RJ creeps me out. He has a girl face. And if Liam whines about Hope one more time I'm gonna throw something at the TV. LOL.
I watched an old episode of Batman today and it was the one that had Jay Sebring in it. His name was "Oceanbring" on the show.
Yes, I've seen that episode too Katie.
Thomas's shirt wow a little loud. What's your weather like, Katie?
Beauders it's smotheringly hot here!! I think yesterday it was 106 and with humidity it felt like 115. Ugghh! After 2pm or so I just don't go outside.
Your weather sounds terrible. That is one thing you would like about Portland, it doesn't get too hot, maybe a little in the summer and we really don't have humidity. I don't know how people stand that kind of heat. We do have earthquakes, that's how mother nature gets to us. You are right Katie, the way they dress the characters on B&B is just terrible. Hope it cools down for you, have you spent your whole life in Texas?
Well Hope had her big "showing" in Rome today and she and Brooke were wearing the ugliest outfits I've ever seen. Brooke looked like she had "wings". They modeled a total of 3 dresses. I thought this was her new "Line". LOL.
Beauders the weather forecast is more of the same for the next week. 100+ degrees. It's hard to live thru this just having to "endure" the heat. I've noticed that when it gets this hot people really drive even more recklessly than usual. I think it's because everybody's A/C is broken and they have to rush to get to an inside cooled off place.
I was born and raised in Texas. Never lived anywhere else. My neighbors are from California and we were talking one day and he was complaining about the heat in Texas, then he said he'd better stop saying that because Texans don't want anyone complaining about their state. And I said "well I'm from here and I have every right to say YES IT'S TOO HOT!" LOL.
BTW I hope they can rescue those people in that sub that was trying to find the Titanic. That's terrible!
I was in Waco and Ft. Worth for a few days late last week. I didn’t mind the high 90’s, we typically get 2 1/2 months of over 100 degrees in Central California every summer, but that Texas humidity really kicked butt. Thank God a couple of stops at Buc-ees, and the bar at the Drover Hotel in Ft. Worth made life better…
I live in Western Maryland, this has been one of the coldest, wettest summers so far that I can remember. It's 5:30 in the morning, it's 55 degrees and it's raining. It's been raining off and on for about a week. Earlier in the year it got to 90, I assumed it would just stay 90 or more cuz that's what it usually does. I put my window A/C in, I just turned it off yesterday and got my little room heater back out.
I seen some of those heat advisories for Texas on the news, they look kind scary, over 100.
Finally, I don't expect a good outcome for the people on that sub. The CEO of that company, Stockton Rush had a pretty "cavalier" attitude when it came to safety. He's one of the people missing. Here's the NY Times article that talks about it, a submarine can dive, surface, and travel on it's own, a submersible needs a ship on the surface,--Titan Submersible
Katie I'm really sorry you have to deal with that heat. Do you have any way to get cool? I know you go to the library, does it have air conditioning?
Katie, I know you can't live in a library, but there has to be a place to cool down. By the way, I hear libraries are a good place to pick up men.
Beauders I have A/C in my house (you have to have it to survive here). The problem is going outside. I went outside today to bring my Recycling Bin back to the garage and I almost blacked out. The humidity hits you like a sledge hammer. I don't know what homeless people do. The city provides cooling centers for people who don't have A/C. But I think they have certain hours so you can't just move in there until it cools off.
Dill I'm glad you made your annual trek to The Lone Star State early and missed this awful heat.
Sunset, the report is that the little sub imploded shortly after they lost contact with it. I guess they'll never find the bodies. I'm not sure what happens when an underwater vessel implodes but it can't be pretty...
Well at least you have some relief Katie, are you nocturnal or do you have to live in the day?
Beauders, I am a "day person"!
Speaking of B&B, I can't even stand the last few days. As I've said before, men DO NOT write this show. No man ever talks like that.
Ridge looks thru the "keyhole of the future" and sees Brooke. Then he runs for 100 miles to find her, although she was RIGHT THERE by the keyhole. And BTW, he WASN'T EVEN WEARING SOCKS!
Then he giggles and asks her to "marry up with him". UGGGH. Then on top of all that, Liam kisses Steffie.
I've had it. That's it. I'm done with this!
I wonder if Brian Wilson went crazy because of Manson.
Are you quitting B&B for the weekend of forever, Katie?
I'm sure I'll watch it again on Monday Beauders. I just get so aggravated with those storylines!
Michael Channels has released a LVH 8 pg letter, written in 1972. It's got an interesting reveal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ937CtExjw 0:52 mark
"It was a strange feeling to see them all sharing their food and listening to each other tell secrets about themselves most people would have been ashamed to ever reveal. The hang ups they had, things they'd done, and incidents that used to upset them. As one would tell of a situation, others would listen, then giggle because each of us had the same ones. It seems that by doing this, the Family became so much closer. Instead of hiding from one another, we were learning to show off for one another."
7:51 "Soon, I became accustomed to revealing my personality's hidden secrets. Everytime I gave one up, it was gone forever, never to haunt me again."
The stuff about revealing embarrassing personal details in front of the group reminds me of communist "struggle sessions" where you are encouraged to reveal your weaknesses and hold yourself up to criticism. It's another mind control technique.
And then Leslie talks about feeling the love just from the way Charlie hugged her. Manson didn't miss a beat.
Starviego, who did Leslie write the letter to?
Channels does not say, so far. Stay tuned!
Starviego, I was watching an old episode of The Beverly Hillbillies and noticed that in 1968 the skyline in Los Angeles was very smoggy. I was reminded of ATWA. Whatever happened with all that?
Whatever happened to the smog? Smog tests for cars, mostly. Also, shutting down all the polluting factories up in LA.
No I meant what happened to ATWA. Is that still an organization? Are Sandy & Squeaky still a part of it?
Back when they first joined up with that group people didn't really talk about pollution, at least not where I was living. Now it's pretty much all anyone talks about.
Katie, you're right RJ has a girl face, he's wearing a lot of eye makeup.
Beauders that RJ creeps me out!! He looks like something out of a scary movie.
I can't believe that Liam went over to Steffy's and kissed her. How dare he?? Who does he think he is????
I hope that guy who plays Liam doesn't mind looking like a stupid sissy. Maybe he makes enough money that he doesn't care how he looks.
He makes a lot of money, but what a hypocrite, he's so upset about Hope kissing Thomas but thinks nothing about kissing Stephie when they are both married and not to each other.
I know that's what I'm talking about. He's whining and crying about his wife kissing another man but he thinks it's okay if he kisses another man's wife? And after Finn was so supportive of him flying to Rome to save his marriage. And the way he just "lunged" at her. Pathetic!
And Steffy should have slapped his face. If those 2 get back together...Grrrr.
In the late 60’s, the Sierra Club launched Ecology Now, one of its earliest anti-pollution efforts. It was popular with hikers, backpackers, and mountain climbers, who were considered edgy people. Of course, the Sierra Club has since been radicalized by politics in today’s world, but back in the day, their goals were somewhat honorable and well-meaning.
Well Katie, Portland isn't as hot as Texas but we're 88 degrees now and it supposed to be 95 tomorrow and 97 degrees on Wednesday. Of course, we don't have much humidity. Stay cool.
Beauders I hope you have an Air Conditioner. I hear a lot of people in your area don't have one because it's not really needed. We've had a few days of relief because it was only 98 here. But the forecast just goes up again.
Today B&B is showing an old episode with Sally in it. I guess they didn't want to film a new 4th of July episode.
I don't have air conditioning, but my sister does if I want to stay with her. All the soaps are repeats today, except Days of Our Lives, which is only on the computer now.
Katie, Liam has now lied to Hope, when he said he wasn't thinking of Steffie, who was he thinking of then when he kissed Steffie?
I know Beauders, Liam makes me sick. He's mad at Hope for kissing Thomas, but yet he kissed Steffie twice and he thinks there's nothing wrong with that I guess. I'm glad Hope is starting to see thru his baloney. Good riddance!
According to the Ashleigh Banfield program, Newson is not going to block Van Houten's parole. She will be released in the next few weeks.
Here's an article about Van Houten, it's Yahoo so it's probably not the best article, but I don't have time to look for a better one--Possible Van Houten release
Since she is a "celebrity" I wouldn't be surprised if they release her, to keep it secret. There might just be some press release saying she was released and moved to an undisclosed location. (probably a halfway house). It might be a condition of her release that she not give interviews, so where she is, what she is doing, and what she is saying might not be available for a period of a year or more.
It's pretty much been that way with Lynette Fromme. She's pretty much kept a "low profile" for years. I expect that was a condition of her release.
Thanks guys. Can you imagine being in prison all those years and then getting out? It reminds me of that movie Shawshank Redemption, where that guy finally got paroled and kept trying to think up ways to get back in prison.
I don't know what she's gonna use for money. Does the prison give inmates any money when they're released? I know on the old movies they got a new suit of clothes. I can't imagine anyone wanting her to live with them after what she did. I wonder what happened to her adopted siblings.
It will be interesting to see what happens.
She has family that will take her in and I'm sure she will get Social Security as she worked while she was imprisoned. I think it's time, actually she should have been released 25 years ago.
Beauders what family would take her in? Her parents are probably dead by now.
She should have been released 25 years ago? I think not. It is being widely reported that she has met all conditions set to make her eligible for parole. The problem with that argument is that the goal posts have been moved many times over the years, making it easier to make parole in California. LVH has hit the Convict lottery, and society is none the better for her being released.
If getting paroled and actually getting released is so easy then Krenwinkel is next. People are paroled because they earned it, not to improve society. I stand by my statement that Van Houten should have been released 25 years ago, because anyone who commits the same type of crime serves about 25-30 years in prison. The only thing that has kept Van Houten in prison is her connection to Charlie Manson.
Katie, I had to fast forward through the Hope/Thomas scenes yuck. Liam is a child.
As California continues down the path of reducing prison populations, many inmates are seeing hope where no light has previously shone. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to say that anyone who commits a similar crime receives a lessor sentence is incorrect. Every case stands on its own, with separate facts, and laws, at the time. Judges are required to follow sentencing guidelines established by the legislature, but have no control when the legislature subsequently changes both sentencing, and parole, guidelines. Inmates are often paroled in California only because they have reached a level in which credits have accrued, or because feel good measures have been enacted. That does impact society, but not in a positive way.
I'm not sure how I feel about Leslie getting out. I've always opposed it because of the way she talked about killing people being fun and the way she acted in the courtroom. Now I'm thinking after all these years, how can she even survive being paroled? The world has changed drastically since the late 60's and early 70's. The article that Sunset posted said that all she had to do is learn to use a cell phone. There's a whole lot more to know than that, and at Leslie's age, does she even have time to learn it? Think of the way technology has changed pretty much everything now. It's like waking up from a 50 year coma and trying to survive in the New World. Would't it be more humane to keep her in prison instead of turning her loose in a completely different world?
I don't know if Leslie is being sincere when she apologizes for her crimes, but if she's not sincere, Lord help whoever she's living with. Only she knows for sure.
I absolutely don't think Pat should be paroled. She went charging thru Cielo Drive after Gibby like an elephant chasing peanuts. No hesitation there or at Waverly.
I was watching a podcast yesterday of a lady that was saying Leslie should have been released years ago, and went on to discuss the case and it was very evident that she didn't know anything about this case. She called her Leslie Van Hooten. She was excusing Leslie for mistakenly following a man who led her down the wrong path. When I was 19 years old, if I had met a man who talked the way Charlie did I'd have instantly labeled him a "kook" and put miles of distance between him and me. So I don't buy all that "she just made a mistake" crap.
Beauders the only good thing about yesterday's show was Sheila's back. I couldn't fast forward thru the Hope/Thomas trash fest so I just turned the channel. Whew! Liam just goes from person to person whining about life. LOL.
Van Houten was released today and was driven to transitional housing. I do feel bad for the LaBianca family and their supporters, I'm sure they are very upset.
Wow that was quick! I wonder if she waved bye bye to Pat.
Beauders what's transitional housing?
A halfway house Katie. I'm sure Krenwinkel congratulated Van Houten. This is very good news for Pat. She was paroled during her last hearing but of course Newsom would not sign off on it. This is not going to be a quiet release, it is the lead story on most news servers.
Here is an interview with Van Houten's lawyer from about 1 month ago--Nancy Tetreault
I'll be interested to see if Van Houten does an interview. If she doesn't, I expect she's not allowed to as a condition of her parole. I would guess many news organizations would want to interview her, some would probably pay a great deal of money for the rights to an interview.
I'm not going to lie, if it were me, I'd have "words" for Gavin Newsome, and they would not be pleasant. He wanted to play "politics", he didn't win that round.
Yeah I agree Sunset. I think he's going to run for President or something. In this political environment I wonder who else is going to get out.
I heard that the Mendendez brothers are getting out. Don't know if that's true or not.
I don't think the Mendendez brothers won't get out because yes now they have confirmation that the father was a child molester but that still does not explain why they killed their mother.
Agreed Beauders! Those boys were old enough to just move away from that house and get away from their Dad, but chose to kill their parents to get all the money. Which BTW, they spent pretty quickly! IMO.
Katie after a week of Thomas and Hope in bed, I have come to the conclusion that Liam is bad in bed because ol' Hope has never looked so satisfied.
Debra Tate must be pretty ill, as there has been nothing in the press about her, in regards to Van Houten being released, for over a month.
I just looked, apparently, Debra Tate gave an interview, however, there is no photograph of her in the article by TMZ. Debra Tate is apparently 69 now, she was 16 at the time of the murders. Leslie Van Houten was not involved in the murder of her sister. Debra Tate
Yes I know that Sunset, Debra Tate is usually included in LaBianca issues as a support person.
Has anyone heard from Anthony DiMaria?
Anthony DiMaria has been interviewed on a lot of cable news channels, Katie. You can see a lot of it on YouTube.
Thanks Beauders! It's only 105 degrees at 7:37pm. No hill for a stepper!
I didn't get to watch B&B today I had a medical appointment at 1:00. Did anything happen except Hope & Thomas ca-noodling?
I'm sorry for the TLB victims having to endure the fact that Leslie got out. We'll see what happens to her. My prediction: She will figure out a way to get back in the slammer because she can't handle it on "the outside".
Here is Debra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knjihz7xCcs
It's probably part of Leslie's parole conditions that she can't contact any former Manson family members. Other than family, who would take her in? Except maybe some "groupie" that's curious about her, which would probably lead to no good. According to this video, Leslie has had a lot of job offers. I wonder what kind of job she could get.
I can't imagine starting life over again in my 70's. I hope we can get updates on her progress.
I always had the opinion that Charlie liked it better in prison. He felt more in control there.
Dianne Lake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64f0A3C-W6o&t=651s
Hey Sunset! I've been looking all over to see if I can stream the 1976 movie Helter Skelter with Steve Railsback. That was the scariest movie ever made. It was a 2 night "made for TV movie". Do you have any links you can post? Steve Railsback was SUCH a good Charles Manson!
I watched a video made by Scott Michaels with Dearly Departed Tours about LVH getting out. I love that guy, but I can't figure out if he's sad or glad. He mentions Suzanne LaBerge. Which is interesting because she tried to get Tex out, but she hasn't lifted a finger to get any of the others out. She has been silent on Leslie getting out. As far as I know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s61IsMF9auE
Katie, thanks for the link to the Diane Lake video and the Debra Tate video, I hadn't seen either one. I read somewhere Debra Tate was ill, at least she's apparently not in the hospital.
I remember the 2 night CBS movie "Helter Skelter". I just happened to watch both parts from the beginning those 2 nights, and yes it was scary back in those days. I don't think it even came on TV until 11:30 at night those 2 nights. Most people around here didn't stay up that late watching movies, I sometimes did. Anyway, I found 3 versions of that film online, none are great. One on a russian website has an ad that keeps popping up, the next has Spanish subtitles that can't be turned off, and this last one is not formatted right, it doesn't fit the screen, (or at least my screen). However, if I put it on full screen I'm able to watch it.
Steven Railsback answered one of my e-mails once, there was something "odd" or "special" about the production of the movie, I don't even remember what it was now. I thought the woman that played "Sadie" (Susan Atkins) was particularly creepy. I had no idea people like even existed in the world back in those days. Those were the days of Billy Graham crusades around here.
In any case, you might be able to watch the film here, it works best for me on full screen. This link may or may not work for other people depending on how your computer is set up--Helter Skelter
Thanks Sunset. That movie was really scary, at least back then.
I really feel sorry for Dianne Lake. She was way too young to have this lifestyle foisted on her and she really had no choice. It's amazing that the police officer took her in and got her some help. Who knows where she would have ended up if not for that.
Katie, try to find Friday's episode of B&B. Hope and Thomas are interrupted by none other than Brooke and she is in fine form dictating what Hope is going to do.
There is a second part to that Dianne Lake interview, I just happened to run across it last night. Dianne Lake
It was kind of "surreal" for me last night. I had Helter Skelter 1976 open in one tab, and the interview with Dianne Lake open in another, she's talking about getting up one morning and seeing Van Houten burning things that belonged to the LaBianca's. Manson is dead, Atkins is dead, Watson and Krenwinkel are still in prison. Van Houten just got out. It's like it never ends. 200 years from now people will still be arguing about the meaning of "Helter Skelter".
Yes, Dianne Lake is very lucky she is not dead or still in prison, just like any other member of the Manson "family". Manson could have picked her to go along on the murders or any other member. The ones he didn't pick, are probably the luckiest ones.
Thanks Sunset! I also found that Part 2 of the Dianne Lake interview and I had the same experience. Over the last few years I've kind of lost interest in this case because of the fact that nothing was happening. But now that something is happening my interest has piqued again. I've been doing a lot of searching on the internet for Manson stuff and I ran across this You Tube Channel that I discovered a long time ago but simply forgot about.
https://www.youtube.com/@HAllegraLansing
When I discovered this channel I really loved it, and I'm just now getting back on there to watch the different episodes. I recommend this channel to anyone who wants to know more about this case or just refresh your memory. I think it's a good channel.
Beauders I saw B&B Thursday when Brooke barged into Thomas' apartment like she owned the place and discovered Thomas & Hope in the sack. I watched it today and listened to her psycho babble, and I know she's going to keep this stuff a secret from Ridge and here we go again! LOL.
Remember Alisa Statman?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igOtUFPcHo8
That reminds me Katie there is a book out titled "Savage Appetites" by Rachel Monroe that has a chapter on Alisa Chapman and her obsession with Tate/LaBianca and the Tate family. I knew most of the information already getting it from Bill Nelson. I am glad to have this information confirmed. I don't know what to make of Statman.
Thanks Beauders. I will get into Statman tomorrow. It's beddy-bye time here.
And Liam is still a wienie. LOL.
Liam is still really bad in bed. LOL
The only thing I remember about Statman is that someone (can't remember who) stated that she stole some stuff from Altobelli that had to do with the Tate family and then gave it to the Tate family to get ingratiated with them. I don't know if that's true or not, I just remember those details. I did read her book years ago and I remember there were a few things said in that book that I questioned as being accurate, but I can't remember what that was now. I don't even know if I still have that book. I'll look and see if I can find it to refresh my memory. I'm pretty sure she and Patti Tate got really close and I think they were living together at some point.
I corresponded with Alisa for a short period. I had heard about the allegations and never inquired as that was not the purpose of the communications. I do recall some errors in her book, but what I liked about the book was that I felt she really did a good job dealing with the human aspect of victims families. I thought there was a great deal of empathy that had been missing in many other writings.
As far as books go, I thought it added value to the Wooly Hophead conversation, something many books failed to do.
It was 121 degrees in Death Valley today, I wonder if that would be too hot for Charlie? Knowing him he probably would like it.
Thanks Dill. I do still have that book and I plan to re-read it.
I've been watching so many Manson videos on different channels that have refreshed my memory. I've gotta tell you, if that wormy little dweeb had ever approached me, I'd have kicked him in the nuts!!!! He is so totally disgusting.
I was watching a video today of the time he was driving that stupid Hostess truck and ran into Stephanie Schramm and talked her into leaving her then boyfriend and hooking up with him, and I just sighed a big sigh. Is it California or did women just fall for some skank guy sniffing around to hook up? It's too bad they didn't live in Texas. We have higher standards. The sniffing guy has to at least have real money and muscles and be over 5'4: tall. LOL.
Portland police have connected four murdered women to a serial killer, Jesse Calhoun.
Thanks Beauders. I had heard on the news that they were trying to connect those Portland murders to that big guy who was just arrested for those NY murders.
Those are murders in Portland, Maine not Portland, Oregon. They caught a suspect here named Jesse Calhoun. All fair-sized cities and larger have serial killers. Cities the size of New York, Los Angeles, or Dallas have multiple serial killers, anywhere from five to ten at any given time. Pretty scary stuff.
Beaders did you notice yesterday that RJ took his shirt off twice in front of Ridge, and then Ridge walked over to him and helped him button it?? That was SOOOOOO Creepy!!
It is said that Jesse Calhoun received a conditional commutation of his prison system a a result of work credits and good behavior, but has since had his commutation rescinded. Sadly, he is not the only inmate that has engaged in ongoing criminal activity since Oregon has jumped in feet first into the criminal forgiveness program. Fortunately, it appears many Oregonians are now beginning to push back on idealistic liberal policies.
Dil, Jesse Calhoun had a commutation of his burglary conviction because he fought the wildfires of 2020. No one could know he was going to become a serial killer. Our former governor is appalled that this is the end result of letting him out. I didn't catch that Katie, but it doesn't surprise me, all the parents on B&B are over involved in their adult children's lives. How old is RJ supposed to be? He looks like a high school student, but he's been in Europe on his own.
I realize that his conviction was for burglary, and that he was part of a work detail, but not knowing he might goon to kill is irrelevant to me. Given a high rate of recidivism, it was a bad decision to provide mass commutation, and at least four women paid for the governor’s action with their lives. How many other victims, violent and otherwise, will occur because Governor Brown pushed a soft on crime liberal agenda?
Katie, that was awkward we go from Brooke haranguing Hope about Thomas to next we see her having lunch with Eric and haranguing Eric and Dekan, is that all she does now. I kinda preferred her being friends with Taylor. Did it surprise you that Sheila got freed?
Dil, believe me, no one in Portland likes what Calhoun did, it is appalling. Hopefully, there are no more victims. I may support Leslie Van Houten being released but I am not soft on crime. I support the death penalty and believe it should be extended to violent sex offenders. I know from my research what those monsters do to their victims and the victims families. I have been assaulted twice for being gay, a woman threw a cup of coffee on me when I went to PSU and I was punched in the face by another woman. I probably got off easy in the homophobic eighties but those two events are still affecting me.
Katie, you should check out General Hospital for yesterday's episode and today's episode as Hayley Mills from B&B (she plays Pam) is back playing crazy Heather Webber. There are quite a few actors from ATWT on General Hospital and several are on 7/20 and 7/21.
I got her name wrong the actress is Alley Mills, Katie.
Dil, Calhoun would have been released 2022 if he served his full sentence, the murders happened in 2023, he would have been out in time for the murders regardless.
Does anybody know if the Corrigan Movie Ranch is the same as Spahn's Ranch? I watched an old episode of Superman this morning and it was filmed at a western town setting and I saw some buildings that looked like Spahn Ranch. AND in one scene I saw what looked like George Spahn walking up the street with a cane. I looked and this episode was filmed at Corrigan Movie Ranch and it sounds like it's in the same place as Spahn's, Santa Susana Mountains. The episode was called "The Bully of Dry Gulch". I tried to find it on You Tube but couldn't find it.
Beauders they kept saying that Sheila was gonna have a trial, but they just ended up in the Judge's office. I kept saying "where is the jury?" LOL. I can believe they let Sheila go but I can't believe that Finn keeps hugging her on the back like that. These writers just make all the men on these shows look so STUPID!
Beauders, I was not questioning your position on crime, over the years I have come to understand your common sense stand on crime, and respect your for it. I am sorry for what happened to you, there is no excuse for any actions like that, and I fully support the prosecution of anyone who commits such an assault.
As far as Calhoun original release date, it illustrates that our the corrections system is continually failing society with good time credits, release based upon age, and other modifiers. That at least four people are dead is tragic, that is undeniable,
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