Paul writes:
Hello Beauders. Can I ask you something about a book you mentioned on the MansonBlog webwite in 2018?
It was part of a discussion about the Spiral Staircase house in Topanga Canyon, and about the possible owner being Georgina Brayton of the OTO Solar Lodge.
It's called Inside Solar Lodge. The author is Frater Shiva. He was actually one of the members of Georgina Brayton's Solar Lodge group in the late 60s. You said something interesting... that Shiva said Tex Watson was seen at a Solar Lodge meeting. Is this true? Was that in the book? THANKS SO MUCH for your help.
Beauders replies:
Hi Paul, funny you asked about Frater Shiva's book as I was just thinking of it the other day. It was not spectacular just a run down of the group's history. It goes into the boy in box scandal but I do remember one interesting thing and that was that Tex Watson not Charles Manson was seen at a meeting the group had. Amazon has an expanded edition for $29.99 which is probably a fair price. If you get the book let us know what you think of it, maybe Katie will put a discussion up of the subject. These side groups are very interesting.
Let the discussion continue....
132 comments:
Oh yeah, I'll have the 3-piece mixed with fries and coleslaw and a jal-a-pan-ya!.
Oops sorry, I'm on the wrong window. HA HA HA HA!
Does anyone have an interest in the side groups of the Family such as the Process, Solar Lodge, Jean Brayton---did she own the Spiral Staircase House, I think she did, and what else was she involved in, etc. People on other blogs think this blog is now a Bold and the Beautiful blog so let's get back to Manson. Another question I have is I heard rumors that Van Houten was involved with a splinter group of the Process, a more satanic based group in the Santa Cruz Mountains in the Bay Area is this true, does anyone know?
Katie is that order Kentucky Fried or Popeyes?
Neither, it's Church's Chicken. LOL.
Didn't LuLu meet up with Bobby B. long before she met Manson and the gang, and was in fact "Bobby's girl" when they got to Spahn's Ranch. And we know that Bobby was involved in satanic musical groups long before he met Manson. So it makes sense that LuLu was involved in that too.
We don't have Church's Chicken here. I thought Van Houten met Beausoleil when the bus broke down in the Bay Area in 1968. She was always considered Bobby's girl by the Family, even though I think she slept with Paul Watkins before Beausoleil. And yes, Bobby was involved in a very Satanic scene in San Francisco. He claims he was on an all meat diet, an example of him trying too hard to fit in with those friends. That is the thing about Beausoleil he tried too hard to fit in, such a handsome boy with women hanging off him and he had so low self-esteem that he's spending the rest of his life in prison for it.
I guess Church's Chicken is a "Texas thang".
Didn't LuLu decide to join a commune to become a nun or something? I'm pretty sure she met Bobby B. before and he was the one who took her to Spahn's Ranch along with Gypsy. Gypsy is also the one who brought Kasabian to the ranch. Gypsy was great at getting followers for Charlie. Probably until he socked her in the face and broke her jaw. Maybe she wised up then.
We could talk all day about Bobby Beausoleil. That guy was never a follower of Manson, yet he claims he killed Gary Hinman under Manson's direction. Hinman's murder is the ONLY ONE I don't blame on Manson. That's all on Bobby.
Bobby was "happily married" for years and his wife ditched him. I have no idea what he's doing now. He's been moved from prison to prison. I think he was in a prison in Oregon for a while, then sent back to California. He still plays his stupid music, that nobody likes.
I need to do a thread on Bobby.
Leslie Van Houten was a "high school princess" that got knocked up and her mother made her get an abortion, according to her. And according to her, she hated her mother for that.
She got out for a while because her conviction was overturned because her lawyer died. She thought she had it made until she was tried again and convicted.
She was mad because she wasn't chosen for the first murders, and begged to go on the second murder spree. Then she claims she wasn't aware of what was happening. She didn't know what murder was?
After the murders of Leno & Rosemary, she rifled thru Rosemary's dresses and picked out what she wanted. She later said that stabbing became more fun the more you did it.
She can't erase what she said. While in prison I think she married some jerk that tried to get her out. Didn't work.
You know I'm getting tired of this blog, this story, this situation, this outcome. It's SOSDD, which means Same Old Shit Different Day.
Nobody has anything to say anymore. There's nothing more to say. Either you crack the case with some kind of break through that nobody else ever happened upon, or you just write a book and make shit up to fit a narrative.
Either way, I'm just tired of it. Charlie's 6 feet under, or wherever he wound up, and those fuckers are not getting out.
The victims are still dead, and the perps are still in prison.
Nothing else happening unless you make shit up.
Night y'all!
Katie, Paris and Zoe are getting a mother, she's an actress from ATWT named Cassandra Creech.
It is the ebb and flow of the Manson family. I predict that in the next twelve months there will be new discussions around either paroles realized or deaths while incarcerated, which will kick the discussions into high gear.
I agree that there are some far-fetched ideas out there right now, as well as attempts to soften the culpability of the minions as well as the Wooly Hophead himself.
Hang tough, Katie….
Thanks Beauders! Thanks Dill!
I think the biggest argument of all is motive. Manson never revealed the motive and he spent a lot of time making sure people thought he was innocent, which I think is a smoke screen.
Since he never revealed the motive, we will never know what it was. We can guess, figure, calculate, surmise, uncover, read through the lines, re-read 100's of books looking for clues, etc. but we will NEVER KNOW the motive for sure. Because Manson took it to his grave!
Yeah these folks will start dying in prison and there will be talk. Whether or not they get released is up for speculation. With all of the current Democratic reasoning of clearing out prisons, you would think that they would all get released, but for some reason, I guess that's a taboo subject now.
I have my own opinion of motive, and might finish my thread on it.
Right now, I'm just tired of this case. I've been through all of this since 1969, and frankly, I'm burned out. I get e-mails from people who are interested in discussing this case, and they just drop the ball.
I'm still gonna be here, but frankly, I'm going to just be an observer. Don't e-mail me again unless you mean business. Because frankly, I've got other things to do other than making threads on this blog.
Thanks Beauders for the heads up on B&B. Paris & Zoey need a mother, except Zoey split! LOL. Every guy at Forrester is after Paris for some reason. It must be her hair hat!
Katie, did B&B ever explain why Paris and her mother have a U.S. accent and Zoe and their father have U.K. accents?
Well I remember when Zoey first came on B&B and spoke with that English accent and she was talking to Xander and they both giggled and said "let's stop using this accent". And after that they both spoke with American accents.
Not that it matters, but I think Sharon was supposed to deliver in October. She found out she was pregnant in January. So add it up.
The news media likes to say she was 2 weeks away when she was killed, but that probably wasn't true. I know it's amazing and unbelievable that the news media would be wrong, but YEAH!!
Colleyville or Copeville, TX???
I think it was Kimchi who asked why are there so many "villes" in Texas?
I actually didn't pay any attention to it until now.
It's Copeville, Texas.
PS I'm reading "I Love You, But I've Chosen Darkness," by Clare Vaye Watkins, Paul Watkins daughter. It is good, she is a professor in San Diego and has a child. This book is about what happens to some women after they have children. I've never had a child, cats are enough for me, so I wouldn't know. My sister has three children, one natural and two adopted, and she was in love with each child almost immediately.
Thanks Beauders! Strange name for a book. The vote's still out on Paul Watkins. I don't know if he was an FOC or
not.
What does FOC mean Katie?
Friend of Charlie.
I think he was a friend when it was sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll. When things got violent, he was friendly with the girls for sex but I think he was disillusioned with Manson. The fire in the van, I think was planned by the girls, and that turned him completely. Do you realize he was only 40 when cancer killed him.
Yeah that's sad that he died so young. He was a cute guy.
I was watching an episode of Adam-12 today, which of course takes place in Los Angeles, and in this episode, a gang of motorcycle bums was terrorizing Malloy & Reed on a deserted western movie set, and one of the gang was a girl, and I was thinking, how could a girl intend so much harm on people. But then I remembered, Manson's gals KILLED FOLKS!
We need to stop thinking about girls being demure and harmless when it comes to the Manson gang. Because those girls were dangerous! They killed people they didn't even know for no reason at all!
And they weren't dangerous until they met Manson. Think about it!
People who think Manson had nothing to do with the murders are working under a delusion. Manson was the key in ALL of these murders.
Hinman: He wanted money because he thought Hinman had some.
Tate: He was mad at Hollywood and anyone involved in it.
LaBianca: Not sure about that one. But I'll figure it out!
Shea: He hated him because Shea didn't like him and was trying to get rid of him.
More to come.
The Manson women are housed with the first modern school shooter. Her name is Brenda Spencer. A song by the Boomtown Rats is about her. It is titled, "I Don't Like Monday's. That is what Spencer said when asked why she shot up the school. There is a pretty decent documentary on YouTube about her for those interested. It lasts less than an hour.
Something else. Tex never told the girls at the Tate murders WHY they were killing these people. He just said to kill them.
Tex never told the girls at the LaBianca murders WHY they were killing these people. He just said to kill them.
He never gave a reason why. And the girls just did what they were told.
Does anyone see anything strange about this?
Van Houten now says she stabbed Mrs. LaBianca because Watson was so menacing. She felt he was going to kill her if she didn't.
LVH also said that Sorry was just a five letter word. She has, over the years, rehabilitated her involvement so as to appear to just being another victim of the Wooly Hophead. Her words mean shit…
I wonder what Van Houten’s life would be like if her mother had allowed her to have that baby?
The girls had been told what to write on the walls by Charlie. They all knew they were going up there to murder even before they got in the car.
Charlie just said "leave something witchy". He didn't tell them to write anything. According to Pat, Linda & Susan, they didn't know they were going to kill people until they got to Cielo Drive. Linda even said she thought it was a "creepy crawl".
Of course, the 2nd night Pat had to know what was expected because she was in on the first night. And Leslie had to know what to expect because she had heard them talking about what happened at Cielo Drive.
But not one of the girls asked anybody "why are we doing this"? And neither Tex nor Charlie offered a reason to them either. At least, not that I know of.
Katie, that is why it so hard to nail down a motive, the killers all had their own motive. Tex wanted Manson's power with the Family, Katie was a good soldier, Susan just wanted gore and was a follower, and Leslie admired Patricia and wanted to be like her.
Also it looks like Douglas is going to drop Brooke in it. Maybe Brooke and Ridge need to go to Paris. Of course that would only encourage the writers to write for only Hope, Liam and Steffie which we do not need.
Beauders said, "the killers all had their own motive".
I know nobody has figured out a motive as of yet. But that's an interesting concept. I will delve into that one.
Douglas is gonna crack the case why "Grandma" kissed Santa, Quinn and Eric have disappeared, nobody ever goes to that restaurant where Deacon mops the floor except Sheila, Paris and Carter can't seem to figure anything out, Zende is after a model that has normal hair, and Brooke and Ridge are gonna have to fight Taylor.
I could write this show, except that (1) I don't have the time and (2) I don't have any interest.
katie8753 said...
"According to Pat, Linda & Susan, they didn't know they were going to kill people until they got to Cielo Drive."
Of course not. They all minimized their responsibility.
------------------
Tex Watson, Will You Die For Me?
pg71of120 "....we were to... write messages on the walls in their blood. When he started listing what he wanted written — things like HELTER SKELTER and RISE — I told him I couldn't remember all that. But he said it was okay; the girls would know what to write."
Susan Atkins interview with Paul Caruso
"...the only thing I remember being instructed to write on the door was "Pig"...."
Thanks Starviego, but I don't believe anything Tex says.
Susan Atkins interview with Paul Caruso
"...the only thing I remember being instructed to write on the door was "Pig"...."
Who instructed her to write that???
Susan also said she thought of writing the word "Pig" because they had written "Political Piggy" on Hinman's wall.
Well I'm assuming if no one answers in 4 days it's because they don't have an answer, or I'm right! LOL.
I'd say your right Katie, it was a familiar word.
Douglas dropped the Deacon bomb yesterday.
Douglas is the one who always tells it like it is, remember Beth.
Yeah poor Douglas has to tell the truth to these losers and he feels guilty about it. That little kid who plays Douglas is the best actor on that set.
Meanwhile, Hope has to go to Deacon's workplace to discuss personal information and Sheila can overhear it all the while holding up a MENU??? HA HA.
I'm surprised that Deacon's supervisor didn't complain that Deacon has all this company while he's working. I used to work in a restaurant as a "waitress" back in the 70's and believe you me, I couldn't have personal visits while I was "on duty". LOL.
katie8753 said...
"Who instructed her to write that???"
Charlie, of course. He gave detailed plans to all the participants, including what to write on the wall.
I thought Manson told the women to do what Tex says and leave something 'witchy." Did he say more?
Watson 1978 Parole Hearing
But I was told what to do, and I was told in the order to do it and the steps to do it.... And he(Charlie) had already told the girls what to do, which is writing on the wall...
Okay, dumb questions:
1. was the Spiral Staircase house in "the Snakepit" or was it somewhere else?
2. What is located on the land where the Snakepit was located? It seems like it would be far to valuable to have it remain undeveloped.
Starviego, in that same Caruso interview, Susan said this:
SUSAN ATKINS: We were instructed to go to this particular house. It was at night and I had no knowledge of what was happening until we actually got there.
PAUL CARUSO: Who instructed you to go to that house?
SUSAN ATKINS: Charlie. Charlie instructed me and Tex and name also Charles, a girl by the name of Linda and Katie – Patricia Krenwinkel.
If Susan had no knowledge of what was going to happen at the Tate house until they arrived, how could Charlie have instructed her to write Pig on the door before they left Spahn's Ranch? The only thing I've ever heard from anyone else involved in this case was that Charlie told the girls to leave something witchy. He didn't go into detail. The words that Pat wrote on the LaBianca walls were words pertaining to Beatles songs. I don't think Charlie told anybody to write anything, including Bobby. That was all his idea to write Political Piggy at Hinman's. I think he was trying to blame the Panthers.
Also, like I said, I don't believe anything that Tex says.
Hi Fullbug. I don't know the answer to your questions. Can anyone help him out??
Hi katie. I'm a super long time lurker, going back to 2013 or so! I'm the guy who made "off thread" requests for discussions of Neil Young and some other musicians. I'm not an expert on Tate/LaBianca by any means, but I think I have something to contribute here.
Fullbug you are certainly welcome here! I don't know a lot about Neil Young, but I love CSN&Y!! Lynyrd could discuss that all day long.
If this helps, here goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKpJ4rfKXZo
I just wanted to point out that in that Caruso interview with Susan, she did say that Steve Parent died first.
End of that story.
Also, I was wondering why Tex and Bobby didn't get drafted into the Vietnam war. They were of age. I think Tex said he was injured in a car wreck. I'm surprised they believed that. What was Bobby's excuse?
They were probably so sleazy in moving from one rathouse to another that the Feds couldn't track them.
Also, I think Manson went back to Cielo Drive after the murders. He said those murders were sloppy and he wanted to make sure the 2nd night went more smoothly. I'm not sure what "more smoothly" means, because the 2nd night was worse than the first, except that the victims weren't splayed out on the lawn.
I think Manson left those glasses.
I don't even know if I believe that Manson went into the Waverly house and tied up the LaBiancas and then left. Has that been established for certain? It seems too much like what you would see in the movies...he went into the house and tied them both up? It sounds a lot easier said than done.
Yeah Fullbug, I've always wondered about that. You have to take the word of a bunch of liars, con artists and killers to find out what happened on both nights.
But take in mind that Charlie was a sneak thief and seemed to have a way of motivating/manipulating people, and he might have just scared the LaBiancas enough to believe that if they wouldn't resist during this home invasion, they would survive.
So who knows?
We know someone tied up the LaBiancas. I'm wondering how that person got into the house. I guess the doors were unlocked. Which seems strange, considering that Mrs. LaBianca was upset about the previous night murders.
Yes, Katie the Spiral Staircase House was in the Snake Pit. I don't know what came of the land, wouldn't it be something if it was like condo's or fast food restaurants. If anyone knows anything about the Snake Pit and the Spiral Staircase please let us know, I myself am very curious. I do believe Jean Brayton owned the Spiral Staircase and why was Watson not Manson seen at one of her cult's meetings?
Hello Fullbug.
Welcome to the blog.
Here's 3 good threads on the Neil Young topic:
http://www.lsb3.com/2012/09/neil-young-compares-charles-manson-to.html
http://www.lsb3.com/2011/12/no-mistaking-what-these-lyrics-are.html
http://www.lsb3.com/2011/03/neil-young-and-charles-manson.html
Best Regards, LS
Fullbug asked:
Okay, dumb questions:
1. was the Spiral Staircase house in "the Snakepit" or was it somewhere else?
2. What is located on the land where the Snakepit was located? It seems like it would be far to valuable to have it remain undeveloped.
Kimchi would know the answers to these questions.
I'll see if I can get her on here...
Hello Beauders and Dilligaf...
I went through some old emails... and now I know who Fullbug is...
I communicated with him several times in the past via email, and he has contributed good thread content, questions and ideas for us.
Nice to see him in the comments section...
Thanks Lynyrd! And Thanks Beauders!
I hope Kimchi can come on and answer some of these questions.
The only thing I know about the Spiral Staircase is that it was a dump. I think the first floor was a river, which means it was structural defective.
But I guess hippies that don't have jobs don't care about that, as long as they have a place to sponge off of and "make love, not war". HA HA.
Hello Katie, Lynyrd, Beauders, Dill, Starviego, Fullbug, and everyone else ...
I haven't been able able to log into this account for a few years, lol...they pretty much 86'd me out of social media in July 2020 for some reason, lol....
I missed you all...I read you but couldn't reply or comment...
Yes, what Beauders said, the Spiral Staircase house was in the Snake Pit...funny this subject came up today..a Topanga Canyon group just posted a link with 786 archive photos that belonged to a lady from Topanga that passed away last month and I've been going through them looking for that house or any info she shared....3 hours in and I'm only half way through them!
Anyone notice that Cupid was denied parole yesterday by the parole board? Anyone care? LOL. I don't ....
Hi Kimchi!
Great to see you!
Cupid... LOL
Thanks Kimchi! Good to see you!
Hey Kimchi thanks for the shoutout. Everyone has made me feel welcome here.
Nobody has commented on the death of Simon Wells....author of "Coming Down Fast" and the guy that "put to sleep' the myth of Joel Pugh's death....he also wrote a few Beatle books which I own...he was a nice, down to earth guy....I will miss his contributions
and his writings..
Also, Windy Buckly, aka Lee Saunooke passed away in December 2021...
https://memorials.hardwickefuneral.com/lee-saunooke/4797121/index.php
Fullbug said:
Was the Spiral Staircase house in "the Snakepit" or was it somewhere else?
The three links below have interesting info about this.
The first link is a very detailed article.
The second link is linked in the third. It, the second link is a photo-shopped panoramic view of the area consisting of two pictures, that are marked, and a key. This is real interesting so start here, expanding the pictures and viewing the key.
The third link is the article that link two appeared in.
https://zodiackillerhoax1986.freeforums.net/thread/291/topanga-beach-grounds-spiral-staircase
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tvbPdQiw0Oo/Tg37-i6OGCI/AAAAAAAAAdU/uvSrNJ6nHQI/s1600/test.jpg
https://www.mansonblog.com/2011/06/oh-boy-photoshop.html?m=1
Does anyone have a current list of Manson Family and hangers on's deaths? It seems someone is always dying, they are of that age after all, and none of them led healthy lives too many substances, bad eating habits, and not enough sleep.
Hmmm. Sorry I've been working the last few days. Kimchi I didn't know Simon Wells died. Did he decide that Joel Pugh was killed?
I believe that Simon concluded that it was a probable suicide.
beauders said...
"Does anyone have a current list of Manson Family and hangers ons' deaths?"
Charles Manson
Susan Atkins
Paul Watkins
Juan Flynn
Vern Plumlee
Barbara Hoyt
Cathy Gilles
Harold True
TJ Walleman
Danny DeCarlo (?)
Bill Vance(VanSickle) (?)
There must be others. Add on.
starviego said:
Add on.
John Philip Haught 1969
Ella Jo Bailey 2015
Marcus Arneson 1992
Al Springer 2000
Hugh Todd (Randy Morglea) 2016
Diane Van Ahn 1972
Larry Craven 2010
David Hannum 1998
William Michael Feeney 2011
Maria Alonzo 1985
Thanks Dill. I don't agree with Simon. I can't believe anyone would slit their own throat to commit suicide. I think Bruce killed him.
Barbara Hoyt died? Did she "kill herself" too?
Wow that’s a lot of dead people thanks for the lists. Katie do you have snow?Is snow common in your part of Texas?
Beauders, there is snow in Texas tonight. Not where I live. It's mostly freezing rain. A disaster the same as a year ago. And I'm going to shut down for the night because of the famous "power outages" in Texas.
Here we go again....
See y'all tomorrow. If I have power!
Good luck Katie
Thank you for the warm welcome, Lynyrd. I've been a lurker for years, and finally decided to join. Even at this late date, there's still lots of Manson material to discuss.
Here's some of my totally unsolicited thoughts: I'm continually amazed at the number of "moving parts" the story has. After years of reading this blog and other sources, I am leaning more and more for a "mixed motive" theory: there was no helter skelter per se, that Cielo was a more of a Watson/Manson operation and that it was a drug burn revenge home invasion/cover for Beausoleil to convince police they had arrested the wrong person, and that Waverly was further cover for Beausoleil.
I don't believe that Manson went into Waverly and tied up the LaBiancas and then slipped away. It seems too much like a movie thing to be believable.
I'm totally undecided on whether Manson went to Cielo after the murders, but I'm leaning toward him not going there. He was a street smart con and I don't see him wandering voluntarily into a crime scene. On the other hand, this was Manson's Superbowl... and I can see him being very curious to inspect the crime scene.
Well I'm still here. For now anyway.
Fullbug I agree with you totally! Nobody has figured out the motive for these murders yet. The Cielo Drive murders motive and the Waverly Drive murders motive were so very different. I won't go into the differences because we've discussed them a million times.
I wish Charlie has just revealed all the motives, because I believe there was more than one motive. But he didn't. Another way of "stiffing the man".
I also think that Bruce killed Zero.
I do think that Manson went to Cielo Drive around 4:00am. He said he wanted to "check out what his children had done". In other words, he wanted to see what his words achieved.
The next day he said those murders were "sloppy". How would he know that if he didn't see it.
As far as him tying up the LaBiancas, maybe he did and maybe he didn't. But he was there. He drove them there. According to all in the car he disappeared for a while. I think he did tie them up. With a promise that nothing would happen to them. Just my opinion.
BTW, as I said before, Rosemary was terrified by the previous night's murders. So why was the door unlocked???
Katie is Taylor still wearing a wig. My mother was blond and one day she came wearing a dark wig when I was about four or five and scared me half to death lol.
Yeah Beauders I noticed that yesterday. Taylor's wearing a shorter wig for some reason. But that's definitely a wig!
There's still plenty of people still alive who know the reason(s) for the crimes, especially Tex, who knows A LOT more than he's been willing to say, IMHO. Hopefully he'll come clean at some point.
I wonder if Winifred Chapman is still alive...
We had a long discussion on that topic a few years back.
http://www.lsb3.com/2012/08/johnnyseattle-writes-hey-lynryd-i-have.html
Anyone?
You can add Bugliosi to your deceased list... LOL
I forgot about Bugliosi. How are you Lynryd?
Hi Beauders!
I'm doing well, thank you...
Ok TabofFresca or anyone else do you know how Diane Van Ahn died in 1972 and who is William Michael Feeney?
Beauders said:
Do you know how Diane Van Ahn died in 1972 and who is William Michael Feeney?
Diane Von Ahn died in a car crash in Oregon in 1972. The source is H Allegra Lansing.
https://m.facebook.com/mansonfamilymtts/posts/1286219791572636
William Michael Feeney was the brother-in-law of John Friedman (Partee) and was referred to as Mike and possibly ‘Father Mike’. Michael Channels old site reported that Mike sent books to Manson while Manson was in prison. Feeney was on Deemer’s List but misspelled (Feeny). In Lyn’s book, she mentions visiting a ‘Father Mike’ a couple of times.
His (listed) LASO booking number falls in the sequence of the numbers used for the little mentioned 4/19/69 arrests of a dozen or so. An old article on this site had indirect partial documentation to the 4/19/69 arrests where LE noticed that some of the girls used different names for the 8/16/69 raid.
Note: John Friedman died in 2008.
According to JerseyDevil (on the other blog) Krenwinkel may have cancer. He claims he has read it on instagram. I wonder if we have another death coming up.
Personally, I don't think any of them have more than ten years in them.
Thanks Beauders. I Googled Krenwinkel having cancer and didn't see anything about that, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have it.
These people are now in their 70's or older. Time is probably running out.
Off topic for a sec, if anyone is following the Lori Vallow case, this is a testament to the idea that someone can have so much absolute control over a person or persons, that said person/s can be enticed to kill folks without any remorse because it's a crime that needs to be done to save souls.
Manson had people kill complete strangers in order to further his cause, whatever that was.
Vallow convinced her own brother that her own children were "zombies" and needed to be killed in order to save their souls. And he killed his own niece, nephew, brother-in-law, and attempted to kill his nephew-in-law.
If you can convince people to kill complete strangers, how much more control does it take to convince someone to kill family members??
So, it is possible to mesmerize someone into doing something drastic, including murder!
And in the Vallow case, drugs were not even being used!
Remember Katie, Jim Jones got people to kill their own babies and children. He had the babies and children killed first so no one would want to continue living. According to survivors there were four women who could have stopped Jones if they teamed up together, his wife, his two mistresses, and his nurse but all were so destroyed by watching the children die, cyanide is not a pretty death, that they gave up.
Right Beauders! It's amazing to think that someone could have so much control over folks that they would kill their own loved ones on command.
The TLB murders were proclaimed the "crime of the century", but I have to say, the Clutter murders and the Jonestown murders were just as infamous.
The black dahlia is probably the most well known of the unsolved murders. If any of you are interested John Gilmore wrote "Severed: The True Story of the Black Dahlia." He wrote "The Garbage People," on the Manson murders. The murder of Elizabeth Short (The Black Dahlia) is very gruesome.
Jim Jones was such a coward that after he saw what his followers went through, he had his nurse blow his brains out.
Also, I don't think we learned the whole story about Jim Jones and Jonestown. Someday I'll write what I think happened and will add a lot of new information. I have a small connection to People's Temple in that my father took my sister and I to the auction at the San Francisco Temple. That was the start of 'my subjects,' that being the Holocaust, Jonestown, and Charlie Manson and the Family. We were allowed after the auction to walk around like we were tourists. Even at fourteen, I noticed all these small rooms with a built-in cot and the lights and locks were on the outside of these little rooms. They were locking people in these rooms. Maybe Katie since you have an interest in Jonestown you should do an entry on them. One thing I find interesting is that both cults have one person in common, Brooks Poston dabbled with Jim Jones and the People's Temple when they were in Ukiah before they moved to San Francisco, I guess he liked Manson's cult best. Another shady character named Sharon Amos (her assumed name, her real name is not important, if someone wants it, I'll find it). Jones, I remember did not like her real name, so she came up with a new one. It has been rumored for as long as I can remember that Amos was a member of the Manson Family but that's not true because whenever I've read, about her they use her assumed name which she didn't start using until the 70's. Several people from The Fountain of the World died in Jonestown. Anyway, Sharon Amos was in Georgetown the capital city of Guyana. She was given the order to kill herself, so she cut the throat's of her children and then her own. She was a true believer. Jonestown was a day and a half away from Georgetown, on a boat. Once people got Jonestown, they were trapped. Most of those people were murdered, they did not kill themselves. Peoples Temple was a black church with white people running it. 300 were babies and children and another 300 were seniors with various health problems. The children were murdered, and the seniors had no way to get out of there. Only one woman walked out of Jonestown through the jungle with her infant. He was the only child to live that day, even though he's in prison now on a three strikes you're out sentence.
I guess this why there isn't a blog about Jonestown, no one is interested.
Katie, is everyone on B&B a busybody? The latest being Steffie. I am a child of divorce and I stopped wanting to get my parents back together when my mother remarried when I was fourteen. I had every reason in the world to want my parents back together, my father was kind and loved kids and my stepfather was/is an intolerant bully. He never hid us because my older brother told if he ever touched any of us, he'd never see us again, but there was plenty of hard times. Add to that my being gay and my stepfather being homophobic well I was happy to move out of their house.
Plus Steffie has a new marriage and kids and she runs a huge corporation, what the hell, isn’t she busy enough with all of that.
Beauders, I'm interested in Jonestown, that was such a tragedy. That Jim Jones was a sick motherfucker! I watched a documentary on that case and the son evidently survived and he told us what happened there. I guess I'm sick of these people who seem to be able to control weak-minded people, even to orchestrating their own demises.
I HATE weak minded people. And there are a lot of those around.
Also, the Black Dahlia case is interesting, probably because it's never been solved. Elizabeth Short seemed to be a swarmy "hanger on" that didn't seem to ever work and sponged off folks. That doesn't mean she deserved to die. But if she had only just found a workable job, she might have made it. She made a lot of friends, but also a lot of enemies.
Lastly, back to B&B. That's the slowest moving soap I've ever seen. They can make an epiphany last for weeks!
For some reason Taylor felt the need to inform Ridge of Brooke's infidelities, which of course he didn't believe.
And Stephie takes the time to go over to Brooke's and say meaningless things, wearing that sweater that only has one sleeve. Those Forrester "creations" are "creepy".
And I really hate that Ridge guy. His voice sounds like he got hit in the throat with a ski.
And heads up on Soap Opera TV kids. Real kids are there 24/7. But with TV kids, all you have to do is "ready them a story" and they go to sleep for 48 hours.
HA HA. That's not real life.
But that is the secret of Jonestown, those people didn’t kill themselves most of them were murdered. Some were weak minded but most of those people were trapped.
I mean it took them a day and a half on a boat to get them to Jonestown. They were trapped by the jungle, yes a few people escaped the day Leo Ryan was there and were rescued but civilization was 400 miles away and it was all jungle between Georgetown and Jonestown. A jungle that had Jaguars, deadly snakes and spiders the size of your fist many also being poisonous. Any one interested in that aspect of Jonestown should read Mark Lanes “The Strongest Poison.” Yes it is by that Mark Lane but he was Jim Jones’ attorney and he did walk out of Jonestown and he walked through that jungle.
Also Peoples Temple was not a cult, it was of the mainstream denomination Disciples of Christ. Yes, they got a little culty in Jonestown but by then the power had got to Jones’ head, he was addicted to speed and had fungus in his lungs and he was going to die from it.
I'll stop after this, if Peoples Temple had stayed in San Francisco, Jim Jones would be a hero remembered for his hands on approach to civil rights and looking out for the underdog. Before Jones left California he became the head of San Francisco's Housing Commission. He was appointed by Mayor Moscone, who ten days after the death's in Jonestown, was felled by an assassin's bullet. Jones built an entire community in his church, which fed, clothed, put people through school, and helped seniors get the best care they could have. He had his faults, he had many mistresses and was addicted to medications, but this was not publicly known until after the deaths. He also accepted gays and lesbians before it was popular to do so. Of course he was bisexual which might have led to that.
Beauders he got run out of CA for some reason. That was why they went to Jonestown. I don't remember why, but you probably do.
Back then, it might not have taken much to get run off!
If that guy so so legit, why did he have to run and hide? There was a reason for that.
When I say they were "weak minded" I mean they were even listening to that clap-trap coming from his mouth.
Why would anyone leave their own country and follow some Jake-Leg to Central America?
Would you? I wouldn't.
Jones wasn’t run out of California but he was getting bad press. The real reason all those people died was Jones claiming to be a boy’s father kept that child in Jonestown when the mother left. When she left Peoples Temple she wanted her kid back. Jones wouldn’t give him back and a judge ordered him to. That’s why Jones physically could not leave Jonestown, he was going to be arrested the minute he left Jonestown. Now I don’t think it’s right to keep a child from his mother and when thinks started getting dicey for the mother she started claiming this boy was actually fathered by her ex husband and he claimed he was the boy’s father too. He was Joneses attorney up until he left Peoples Temple. All 912 people died because Jones was not willing to give up the boy. There is a book titled “Love Them To Death” by the supposed father Timothy Stoen. It’s his side and his ex wife’s but it fairly accurate and it shows how he pushed Jones, knowing he was unstable and saying he was ordering his followers to commit suicide. This guy Stoen was just as responsible as Jones in my opinion. Two men who couldn’t abide each other in this child’s life led to 912 deaths.
Peoples Temple and Jonestown were quite the soap opera in their own right as is Manson and the Family.
Beauders I thought Jones got upset because that Congressman came to visit him and some of the people in his camp had decided to leave with him the next day. I think he was afraid that the authorities would find out what was going on in his camp and he'd get in trouble.
He was afraid of what Congressman would see and learn because the Congressman, Leo Ryan had been fed information by apostates and the Stoen's. If Jones had gave the child, John Victor Stoen back to his mother odds are Ryan would have never gone to Jonestown and would not have been assassinated. There were a lot of problems in Jonestown, the people had to work too hard, were not fed well, and Jones kept them up most nights lecturing and preaching gobblygook. It was a horrible place and Jones was crazy.
Beauders was he always crazy or did he just turn crazy when they moved to Jonestown?
I think he was ok in the beginning but like a lot of powerful people it went to his head. Add to that drug addiction mainly speed he just went nuts.
The court blocked Van Houten’s bid for parole.
Thanks Beauders.
Those people aren't getting out without toe tags.
I often wonder if they think back to the 60's and wish they had never met Charles Manson. I don't even know if they thought it was fun at the time. They're all so squirrely it's hard to say.
To be in prison your whole adult life would really suck!
I would say all of them despise Charlie Manson. Again I wonder what Leslie Van Houten’s life would be like if her mother had not forced her to have an abortion. This must have kept her mother up atnightI know it would keep me up.
Van Houten was in trouble before Manson. I have no proof but I’ve heard a few times that she was involved in a Satanic Group in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I grew up about 40 miles away from Santa Cruz so my ears always perk up when I hear something like this. Was this a Process splinter group, I think it was but I can get no proof.
Spending your whole adult life in prison may suck, but do you know what really sucks? Spending eternity in a casket prematurely.
Actions have consequences. Often, those consequences are far greater than anticipated. The upside is an entire adult life without paying for room, board, clothing, or college educations. Seems to me, they got a much better existence than their victims.
Right on Dill! These people all had choices, and they chose to kill. They only have themselves to blame.
Beauders you said:
"Again I wonder what Leslie Van Houten’s life would be like if her mother had not forced her to have an abortion."
You know Beauders, we don't even know if that story is true. It's something Leslie, a killer, said happened.
But can you imagine Leslie with a newborn, who needs constant attention and care? The very thought of that scares me!!!
Beauders, a blogger sent this e-mail to me regarding your question about Leslie:
Dear Katie:
Hello. I have been reading the blog off and on for a couple of years. It is a good read. Can you pass this info to beauders :
Regarding Van Houten. This tip may not go anywhere, but you can check out Arthur Lyons (The Second Coming, e.g.). He wrote of running into Les-is-more during his route through Satanism in southern California in the late 1960s. It was before Van Houten went to camp Manson.
I tried to post the above on the blog, but I blew something. It did not go through.
I've had several people mention that they couldn't post on the blog. I don't understand why that would happen.
If any of you have any trouble posting on this blog, please e-mail me. I will make sure your comment gets posted, and hopefully I can solve the posting problem!
Okay the big hand's on the 15 and the little hand's on the 10. That means it's beddy-bye time for me.
Night y'all! Sweet dreams!!
beauders said:
I guess this why there isn't a blog about Jonestown, no one is interested
It's not so much that no one is interested, it just isn't a story that has the longevity value that the Manson one has. It's one of those episodes that will always make a good documentary every few years.
It also has so many horrible details, no real mystery and Jones has few supporters, the way Charles Manson does, and even if he did have supporters, unlike Manson's, there's going to be little articulacy in what they say. Plus, the deaths of so many children, most people don't want to debate that kind of thing over and over.
Dilligaf said:
Actions have consequences. Often, those consequences are far greater than anticipated
That, in a sentence, more or less denotes the story of the human race. Possibly the hardest part of bringing up children or engaging with children, is getting them to firmly realize that, before it is too late in one way or the other.
I want to remind everyone that in order to post comments on this blog, you must have a gmail address. It's easy to get one. Then you should be able to post comments without any trouble.
Fullbug said:
I don't even know if I believe that Manson went into the Waverly house and tied up the LaBiancas and then left
He says he held the gun and Watson did the tying up. Watson concurs. Manson doesn't deny being in the house. He just denies killing anyone there.
After years of reading this blog and other sources, I am leaning more and more for a "mixed motive" theory
That's precisely what the prosecution case presented. They didn't need a motive but recognizing that juries want to know, they presented several ! And they had witnesses and evidence to back them all up. As Astrocreep once immortally put it, it was death by a thousand cuts !
katie8753 said:
Not that it matters, but I think Sharon was supposed to deliver in October. She found out she was pregnant in January. So add it up.
The news media likes to say she was 2 weeks away when she was killed, but that probably wasn't true
The coroner, Thomas Noguchi, said the baby was at 8 months gestation. Just because Sharon found out she was pregnant in the January {if that is even true} doesn't mean a thing. Throughout the eons of time, women have found out they are pregnant at a variety of times. Some have even found out they are pregnant only on the day they give birth ! Hard to believe, and I still have a hard time believing it, but there you go.
beauders said:
Van Houten was in trouble before Manson. I have no proof but I’ve heard a few times that she was involved in a Satanic Group in the Santa Cruz Mountains
I don't believe that, for a variety of reasons. For one thing, she's been a lady to bare all, especially to the parole boards over a few decades. LSD, marijuana, burglary, underage sex, pregnancy, adopting the counterculture, abortion, the self realization fellowship, running away to the Haight, Bobby Mackie, dropping out.....it's all come up. This Satanic group in the mountains never has. Maybe she went to a meeting once. Lots of people went to plenty of different types of shindigs in the days when convention was being challenged. That doesn't spell involvement.
Also, when you say "in trouble before Manson," what do you mean, exactly ? Do you mean law trouble or just life hassles ?
Grim I meant she was in trouble in a general way. I think the forced illegal abortion really messed her up. I know someone who had an illegal abortion in the 50’s and was affected by it her whole life, including a life long dislike for sex.
Beauders, do you mean Leslie was forced by her mother to "lie down and take it" with the abortion, or do you mean that Leslie was driven there by her mother and taken into the "clinic"?
When you say "forced illegal abortion" it sounds like she was dragged in there kicking and screaming and tied down.
I think the only option Van Houten had was she could leave living with her mother or have the abortion. The way she makes it sound she had no choice.
A third choice was to give the child up for adoption. That was not a uncommon thing in the Sixties.
I was born in 1964 and was adopted the day after birth so I know what you mean Dil. My birth mother didn't have to give me life, but she chose to. A lot of illegal abortions happened in 1964 and she gave me a gift. From what I know Van Houten wanted the baby and was not willing to give him/her up. Her mother wanted the child gone and got her way. Maybe she would have been embarrassed by her daughter having a child outside of marriage. I'm sure the mother would rather have an illegitimate grandchild than have her daughter involved in mass murder in hindsight.
I don’t get it, Katie, women are always fighting over Ridge. I don’t find him charming at all and wish he’d go back to Paris. Speaking of Paris, her sister is coming back. We should have a Zoe spotting soon.
No Ridge isn't charming. In fact he's odious. If it were me, I'd be fighting over who has to be with that loser. LOL.
Was the original Ridge better, did he cheat on all of his wives and girlfriends?
The original Ridge was better looking, although he kind of looked like a girl. But at least he didn't look and sound like a hoarse bum. This Ridge/Brooke/Taylor thing has been going on since the 80's. You'd think they could think up a new storyline.
beauders said:
I was born in 1964
I learned to walk in 1964 !
Her mother wanted the child gone and got her way
A lot of mothers did, and it wasn't like nowadays. Given the times and her divorce and having to rearrange her life, with her daughter and the adopted kids in mind, I guess she should be cut a little slack.
Not much though !
I'm sure the mother would rather have an illegitimate grandchild than have her daughter involved in mass murder in hindsight
During the trial, Jane Van Houten reflected on whether or not she may have played a part in what happened with Leslie, which I thought was amazingly honest of her, totally the opposite to Susan Atkins' Dad, Charlie's Mum or Pat's Dad. Looking back on it, I wonder if she had the enforced abortion in mind. In the 60s, it was still quite a rare thing to stand up to one's parents, which partly accounts for why there were so many runaways.They didn't stand up to them, they just left.
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