Evidently that Grand Piano came with the house! That's amazing! You would think that the owner of a Grand Piano would be a lot more careful of a valuable instrument than just loaning it out to any Tom, Dick or Harry that happens to sign a lease. I'm assuming that piano cost around $10,000 to $30,000 back then, depending on how old it was and what brand it was. Now-a-days it would probably cost around $50,000 to $150,000. You'd think the owner of that instrument would be more particular.
But...you know...lots of people have a Grand Piano in their living room and don't even know how to play it. It's just a "furniture statement".
I'm thinking that all of the furniture in that house was already there when Sharon & Roman moved in. If that's true, that means all of the furniture was used by Terry Melcher & Candace Bergen. And a myriad of other folks.
Which to me brings a big "ewwwww". Who wants to sit on other people's furniture?
I guess the hippy lifestyle was prevalent back then. Being transient and moving from house to house was easy when you don't have any "stuff" to move. LOL.
Sharon & Roman were paying $1,200/month rent for that house. That's a lot of money back in 1969. But if it came with a Grand Piano, then I guess it was worth it! Although nobody knew how to play it but Gibby. And I don't even know how much she played it. But supposedly the sheet music for Straight Shooter by the Mamas & Papas was on the piano ledger...
51 comments:
Evidently that Grand Piano came with the house! That's amazing! You would think that the owner of a Grand Piano would be a lot more careful of a valuable instrument than just loaning it out to any Tom, Dick or Harry that happens to sign a lease. I'm assuming that piano cost around $10,000 to $30,000 back then, depending on how old it was and what brand it was. Now-a-days it would probably cost around $50,000 to $150,000. You'd think the owner of that instrument would be more particular.
But...you know...lots of people have a Grand Piano in their living room and don't even know how to play it. It's just a "furniture statement".
I'm thinking that all of the furniture in that house was already there when Sharon & Roman moved in. If that's true, that means all of the furniture was used by Terry Melcher & Candace Bergen. And a myriad of other folks.
Which to me brings a big "ewwwww". Who wants to sit on other people's furniture?
I guess the hippy lifestyle was prevalent back then. Being transient and moving from house to house was easy when you don't have any "stuff" to move. LOL.
Sharon & Roman were paying $1,200/month rent for that house. That's a lot of money back in 1969. But if it came with a Grand Piano, then I guess it was worth it! Although nobody knew how to play it but Gibby. And I don't even know how much she played it. But supposedly the sheet music for Straight Shooter by the Mamas & Papas was on the piano ledger...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOeevo7OW7E
Venus writes:
Hey....just noticed your post about the Cielo house. Yes, the furniture was there. Samantha Eggar rented it circa 1966 and there was a magazine layout showing her in the living room and the chairs and couch were the same but they were arranged differently....
Quinn's sweater looks like someone dumped a gallon of black ink on it. Katie.
I saw that. It looked like she had portable tatoos on her arms. Loved the "cat fight" in the office today. LOL.
BTW, it looks like Carter got over Quinn really fast!
Yes, Quinn was very menacing.
Back to the Grand Piano, where did it come from? Was it there when Rudi bought the house? Did Michelle Morgan put it there and just leave it? She was the only owner of the property until Rudi bought it for a rent house.
What kind of piano was it? A Baldwin? A Steinway? Who would just leave a Grand Piano??? It's like leaving a valuable appendage!!!
Can someone tell me where this piano came from? Why can't I know???
Katie I know nothing about the piano. You have good questions about it. Does anyone know one or more answers about the piano?
I thought maybe Michelle Morgan left that piano there when she moved, but in this video you can plainly see at 3:11 there is no piano in the living room. So it was put there after she left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwLzLMXBqYg
Venus writes:
No idea about the piano. I know there are photos of Mark Lindsay and Terry Melcher using it so it was there for awhile. Must've been Rudi's. Maybe he had parties when he first bought the house. Celebs used to entertain at each other's parties....just a guess tho....
Thanks Beauders & Venus. I'm assuming the piano was Rudi's. That seems to make more sense. I've never read that he played the piano, but sometimes people with money buy a grand or baby grand just to be fashionable.
Rudi said a woman killed herself in the house. I wonder what woman that was???
That picture above the fireplace of Michelle is scary....
You know, on every video I've seen of Cielo Drive, I've never seen what Mark Lindsay describes as the "maid's quarters".
HA HA HA!!!
"Maid's Quarters". That sounds like some kind of taboo area to be avoided at all costs. Why don't we have any pictures of the "maid's quarters"???
Mrs. Chapman was the "maid", but she didn't live there. We've seen time and again where she had to catch that bus to get to work on time!
So who were these "maid's quarters" for????
Back in the 60's everyone I knew, including me, thought Mark Lindsay's pony tail was just STUPID and ICKY!!!
I also think they all dyed their hair black except for Paul. I guess that was some kind of symbolism. Although I won't remark on what that meant. Because frankly, I don't know. HA HA HA HA!
Blogger John wants to know if anyone knows exactly how tall Charles Manson was. He's been reported to be between 5'2" to 5'7" tall. Does anyone have an exact height?
And now I'm heading for bed, which means I'm putting my Gloria Swanson (Norma Desmond) mask on and don't bother me until morning. LOL.
Night y'all!!!
According to Lindsay,
“The house had a million-dollar view, a pool, and a peaceful, well-sculpted grounds with a rose garden. The interior at first seemed ideal. There was plenty of room with a master and guest bedroom, as well as a spacious living room with a grand piano and a loft. Across a small entry hall was the kitchen, dining room, and a maid’s quarters."
Apparently, the piano was there when Lindsay lived there. Who put it there, or what brand it was I don't know. Pianos are large, heavy, and very hard to move. Once they get put somewhere, they usually stay there as it is expensive and back breaking work to move them.
What Lindsay describes as the "maids quarters" was probably just a small room off the kitchen originally intended for a maid to live in. I know where there's an old farm house that still has the "slaves quarters". It's a small brick room over the kitchen with no windows. It didn't have windows so the slaves couldn't escape. I'm sure it was hotter than hell up in there in the summertime. I don't think Winifred Chapman lived at the house on Cielo, she could come and go as she pleased. (even though she was African American)
"By 1968 Lindsay had completely taken over the writing and producing tasks for the group."--Wikipedia Lindsay might have used that piano to write songs, I don't know. I don't know much about pianos except they are hard to move, I can't play one, but I might be able to play this one--12th Street Rag
Thanks Sunset! Pianos are very hard to move!
Does anyone know how tall Manson was? A blogger named John was asking me and I'm not really sure how tall he was.
Hey John, you're welcome to come on the blog and ask any questions you want. I'm sure someone will probably know the answer!
Venus says:
Regarding the Cielo maid's quarters....that was apparently being fixed up by Sharon to use as the nursery. Seems awfully far from her bedroom. She probably figured that was what Roman would want. I don't think he'd be thrilled to have a crying baby nearby. Plus, a nanny was supposed to be coming soon so she was probably going to share the baby's room?
Michele Morgan had household help (a married couple, I think) so that's probably where they stayed while she lived there. I don't think they stayed very long but I can't get to her book right now....
Thanks Venus, I forgot about that. Isn't that the room that had been painted that day and that's how Tex got in because the window was open and he cut the screen?
I agree that's a long way across the house for a newborn baby to stay!!!
Here is a link to the floor plan of the house--Floor plan
The bedroom all the way on the right is probably the area Lindsay referred to as the "maids quarters" as it's right beside the kitchen. Sharon Tate might have wanted to make that room the nursery. It is too far from the bedrooms on the other end of the house for a newborn baby. However, she might have intended to sleep in there with the baby, or have a nanny sleep there, or she might not have intended to use it as a nursery until the baby was older, 2 or 3 years old.
It's my understanding Watson cut the screen on a window in the dining room to gain entry. There is a photo of a screen removed from a window and sitting on the ground.
Not only are piano's hard to move, they go out of tune severely and need tuning after moving them.
Katie, do you think we'll get anymore porn on B&B this week? Sadly, they have had to recast Taylor. The last time I saw the original actress, Hunter Tylo has some terrible disease that causes her bones to break easily. I tried to find out what the disease is called but cannot find it, she must not want people to know something is wrong with her. Also her former husband Michael Tylo died recently who she has three children with.
Beauders, I didn't know any of that about Hunter-Taylor. I didn't even know they recast her. That's awful. Is that osteoporosis?
Looks like Katie & Carter are going to get it on. I'm amazed at how NO ONE at this office ever works. I'm hoping that Quinn will attack Donna or something interesting will happen this week.
Ok Hunter Tylo has a disease that causes her joints to dislocated from where they are supposed to be and she is keeping it private.
Quinn really gave it to Donna today, Donna looked absolutely terrified. Good acting.
Sunset, thanks for the link! I really thought Tex cut into the future baby's room on the right side because they painted that room that day and left the windows open to air it out. But...I could be wrong.
Beauders, I didn't get to watch B&B today. I had an appointment to get to. But I'll watch tomorrow! I'd like to see Quinn against Donna, Brooke & Katie. Grudge match! HA HA!
You could probably see B&B on youtube, it's worth watching.
Thanks Beauders! I'll watch that!
Hi everyone! Thank you so much for sharing this video here. I have visited this site on many occasions as I was doing my research, so good to see you all. I hope you will continue watching the other videos at my YT channel - I've turned a good chunk of my 2019 book about The Family into a free docuseries. We're currently at episode 16 and late summer of '68, so lots more to get to over the next few months, plus there other videos like this one, the one about Bill Vance's real name, discussion of some of the Manson related books, and visits to key sites associated with the Family. I'm going to attempt to answer a couple of the questions I see here - I don't consider myself an expert, just a student like everyone else, so these are just my best understanding:
* I think the piano and some of the furniture may have been left by the previous owner, Dr. Hartley Dewey, when he and his wife sold the property to Rudy. Most of the 17 or so years that they owned the house, it was rented to tenants including actress Lillian Gish. I believe the house was furnished by the Dewey's that entire time and the piano may have been from them. Rudy's star as a talent manager was on the rise in the early '60s when he bought the property but I think I had read somewhere that he previously lived in an apartment in Hollywood - which makes me think he might either have acquired the piano upon moving to Cielo or that it was already there, courtesy of the Dewey's. In fact, Hartley Dewey died in '63, the same year that the home was sold to Altobelli. So either Rudi bought the house upon Hartley's death (and his widow may have included some of the furnishings) or Hartley was in poor health at the end of his life and may have wanted to get rid of some items. We don't know if he went into hospital at that time, a senior car center, or if he perhaps died before the sale.
* As to Manson's height, I discovered that one reason for the discrepancies in whether it was 5'2", 5'3" or higher, was the fact that some of the police booking reports in '69 (the assault charge that spring against Danny DeCarlo's wife Miriam for instance) show Manson as 5'7". I too wondered if perhaps Bugliosi had intentionally provided inaccurate information, just to add to his colorful narrative of this demonic Pied Piper, etc. Ultimately, what I learned however is that most of those precincts arresting Manson back in 1969 didn't actually measure their arrestees. They relied upon other documentation - in this case, Charlie's driver's license. He listed his height as 5'7" but it does seem from other sources that he was in fact closer to 5'3" in height, and gave false info on his id.
* And yes, the room that was to be the baby's room was previously used as an occasional room by Winifred Chapman, the housekeeper at Cielo. In fact, on Friday, August 8th, hours ahead of the murders, Sharon invited Winifred to stay at the property because it was really hot and Sharon knew that Ms. Chapman didn't have air conditioning in her Los Angeles apartment. Winifred declined, quite possibly because that room had just been painted and the only place she would have been able to sleep would have been the sofa. Imagine if Tex Watson had sliced through that window after midnight and found a black woman asleep, rather than Wojciech Frykowski. Would have botched that whole 'make it look like black people' strategy, right.
My best to all of you - thanks again for sharing the video! Hope you enjoy and keep watching.
Hi there H. Allegra Lansing!!!!! I'm so glad you came on the blog! I just discovered your You Tube Channel by accident, and have later seen other videos you posted about this case. With your permission, I'd like to post other videos, because they are extremely interesting, and may I say, your investigations into this case are far more accurate and interesting than many, many others I've seen!!
Thank you so much for answering certain questions! I don't know the title search for the owners of 10050 Cielo Drive, starting with Michelle Morgan, and I know you know a lot more about that than I do.
It's very obvious that "someone" decided to leave a piano at Cielo Drive, either because it was too much trouble to move, or they just didn't want it because they didn't have a use for it, or Rudi moved it in when he bought it.
Your offer makes sense that Dr. Dewey left it there, or in fact Rudi put the piano there when he bought the property. I've looked at the pictures of the piano and I can't tell if it was a grand piano or a baby grand piano. I'm thinking it was a baby grand. Either way, it would make sense that Rudi furnished the house with a baby grand piano because he was in the entertainment business, and it might have attracted renters in that industry.
But I guess we'll never know. One more question in this case!
As to the height of Manson, I've always been of the opinion that he was a "squatty body". I'm assuming that from pictures I've seen of him with the girls, he seems the same height, which I'm assuming would be between 5'3" tall to 5'4" tall. Watching him walk thru the Hall of Justice with the officers shows pretty much how short he was. He was a "sleight man", which means he wasn't very tall and didn't weigh very much.
Finally, you concur the baby's room had just been painted, and I'm assuming that is the room that Tex got into because the windows were open to let it "air out", and he cut the screen to get in.
I know from the crime scene photos, it looks like that the dining room window, but I'm thinking it's the window from the baby's room.
Please give me some time, but with your permission, I'd like to include other videos you produced on this case!! Good work!!! :)
Absolutely Katie - you're a gem!
Thanks H. Allegra!
Do you know who Rudi was referring to when he told Mark Lindsay and Terry Melcher that a woman killed herself at Cielo Drive when Mark claimed Cielo Drive was haunted?
Also, I think there's Part 2 of this video, which I can't find. Can you give me a link?
Thanks so much!!!! :)
Maybe Rudi made it up about that lady who killed herself to make the property more interesting. I don't know.
I'm not sure when Mark Lindsay told people he thought Cielo Drive was haunted. Was it BEFORE or AFTER the murders. If he was so scared to live there, WHY DIDN'T HE JUST MOVE??? If I was living at someone's house and thought it was haunted, I would move out. And why hide a 44 Magnum under his pillow. What kind of gun kills ghosts???
And you would think that Mark was earning enough money to have his own pad by that time! Why slum around with someone else??
I think someone else that lived there said it was haunted. We have to remember that many, many people said lots of things AFTER the murders that just weren't true, because they were desperate to be in the news!
Like they were all invited to a party at Cielo Drive that night. A party that was never planned and never happened, and was just fabricated by dozens of losers that wanted to be part of these horrific murders. Typical fake Hollywood.
Katie, a 44 magnum is a huge gun, I think he was keeping it there for people not ghosts.
Beauders, LOL. I think that anyone who would sleep with a loaded 44 Magnum under his pillow is crazy. If I did that the way I thrash around, I'd have shot myself years ago. HA HA.
Me too, Katie.
Rudy didn't say who the woman was, and I'm in agreement that he likely made it up - showing off to a couple young guys that he was trying to impress. If it was haunted, it wasn't anyone who died on the property since Byrd built the place in '43 as best as I can tell. So unless someone died years before, I tend to think that the story (and Lindsay's tales about it) are bunk.
If Lindsay was smart (and considering he's still alive to tell these tales, I'm guessing he is) he probably had a money manager. Most sensible musicians back then had people to manage their money so that they didn't blow it all on you know, goldplated rims, their second-cousin's waffle stand, and clap treatments for a cult. Dennis Wilson had a money manager because he was known to be reckless with his earnings. Lynette Fromme wrote in "Reflexion" that the Family wanted to ask him to bail out the Witches in Mendocino but he couldn't get access to funds right away and was known to bum cash from friends. Explains why Charlie tried to get money from Melcher (via Tex Watson) in November 1968 when Gregg Jakobson got arrested on a minor possession charge. Cause you would think his bestie would have bailed him out, right?
I haven't completed Part 2 of the video on Cielo Drive - hoping to have it done by year-end. Got waylayed by other topics and responsibilities but I promise to get on it soon!
(Addendum) - the comment about Mark Lindsay having a money manager was in response to the question about why he was living with Melcher and not living on his own. He probably had a monthly stipend that didn't afford him some luxury place of his own.
Katie whenever my stepfather wasn’t home my mother would sleep with a loaded 22 on his spot. She loved guns.
Beauders I love guns too. I have a 357 Magnum myself with 38 hollow core bullets. I don't sleep with it under my pillow, but it's close at hand.
H. Allegra, I'm sure Rudi made up that story about a lady that killed herself. I've been thru every woman who lived there, and none of them killed themselves. That house was built in the 40's, and no one can say someone killed themselves in that house if it wasn't even THERE! If someone killed herself in the country before that house was built, it doesn't count!
Thanks for explaining why Mark would live with Terry because he had a "money manager". I can't get it thru my head that ANYONE would be so stupid with money that they couldn't just pay rent. If people are that stupid, they need to be homeless.
And was Mark paying rent to Terry or to Rudi? Was Mark even on the lease?
I say that because when the murders happened, Rudi sued because Abigail and Voytek were living there but they weren't on the lease agreement.
I'm working on a thread about motive.
I'm so tired. I hate this time change!
"clap treatments for a cult".
HA HA!! This is one of the things I laugh about. These fucking losers were always coming down with STD's. But these men just kept coming in there and contracting it. Because these women were dripping with STD's!
When do stupid people stop being "stupider"??????????????????????????????????
Okay enough with STUPID! LOL.
I'm working on a thread about motive. I would like for everyone to join in and let's finish this off.
Like we could. LOL.
I would like to say one more thing tonight. I'm very tired because of the time change.
These people were just kids. Pat, Susan, Leslie, Tex, Linda, Mary, Bobby, Bruce.
Kids. Young adults.
All except Linda & Mary have been in prison their whole adult lives.
I think Mary and Linda have been hiding their whole adult lives.
Was it worth it???
Pianos were out of fashion in the sixties.There was a huge surplus of them and they were common in older folks' houses. Anything other than a very modern upright or top flight concert grand ( very,very big) was a total drag on the market. I was a child then and we had four pianos. The grand piano was in the living room:the cutlery was in the pawn,we weren't well off. There was a craze for piano wrecking - chopping them up,they were so hard to get rid of.
Katie, if Linda Kasabian has been hiding she is doing a very bad job of it, know where she is. Dripping with STD is a really gross way of putting it, yuck the visual I get is of Susan Atkins with no pants on and actually dripping. LOL
Pianos never go out of fashion. LOL.
Beauders, Susan was always dripping with STD's. I read that her feet were infected.
All of Charlie's girls were regulars at the Haight Free Clinic, for every STD there was.
Can you imagine Charlie presenting these creatures for rock stars, including the Beach Boys? And they all joined in? GROSS!!
To answer the question about the maid's quarters: Mrs. Chapman did sometimes stay over, I guess if she had to work late or something. Sharon had asked Mrs. Chapman if she wanted to stay that night, because she knew Mrs. Chapman didn't have a/c at her house. Mrs. Chapman declined.
Post a Comment