I'll never understand law or lawyers.
The DA and Judge both agreed/determined that "Van Houten cannot obtain evidence after her conviction, because she does not face a sentence of death or life without parole".
Okay cool.
If that's "the law", then that's the law.
Game over.
Case closed.
But what confuses me, is this:
Richard Pfeiffer is a lawyer.
It's safe to assume, that Pfeiffer knows the law (just like the DA and Judge).
So...
Why would Pfeiffer even bother trying to get the tapes released, when he knows darn well, what the law states? He certainly must know, that Leslie is not entitled to the tapes (because she does not face a sentence of life or life without parole).
Restated another way:
If the law clearly states, "Van Houten cannot obtain evidence after her conviction because she does not face a sentence of death or life without parole", then WHY THE HELL did Pfeiffer even bother petitioning for the tapes (in the first place)???
Are lawyers like Pfeieffer just trying to "slip one by" the DA and Judge?
Was Pfeiffer just hoping that the DA and Judge wouldn't know, or look-up the applicable laws???
Dilligaf described Pfeiffer's petition (for the Tex Tapes), as a "Hail Mary".
Jeez. I guess so...
It seems to me, if "the Law" was against Pfeiffer from the very start (and he knew it), then it was more of a "complete waste of everyone's time", than a "Hail Mary". LOL
Am I missing something?
In retrospect, the whole thing seems like a stupid exercise in futility to me.
218 comments:
1 – 200 of 218 Newer› Newest»Early in my career, I became aware of two separate, yet equally important court's. One is the court of law, by which our society looks to for justice ( which many times can be elusive). The other is the court of public opinion, which today is often affected by social media. It is not about what is fair, just, or right, but based on perceived feelings. Raise enough of a fuss that social media takes over and people will perform gymnastics to avoid appearing wrong, or mean. We have become a society of appearance over substance, perception over honesty, and the ends justify the means...
Thank You Dilligaf, and well said...
I think I get it now.
The law was so distorted in this case and the whole saga that its,almost like there was another set of laws applicable to the collective Manson case all together, i dont blame him for at least trying to get the info released, id probably question his ethics if he didnt
I agree, if the internet and social media had been around in 69-70 Manson likely wouldnt have been convicted, after Caballero and Caruso sold Atkins stories to the higest bidder and then Bugliosi was able to push his narrative with nobody there to question it Mansons goose was cooked
Not that i think they deserve to be out but if Davis, Leslie and Beausoleil were just Joe Blow murder suspects and not connected to Charlie theyd probably have been out years ago
Pure speculation on whether no-name convicts would have been released. If you committed the same crimes, but without the antics of the Wooly Hophead and his minions, the deaths would have been just as horrific, convictions just as swift, and parole just as elusive. There is no doubt that the defendant's played it to the hilt, sometimes overshadowing the viciousness, but without the shenanigan's, more attention would have been placed on the brutality.
Charlie ate up the attention just like any other kid who grew up unwanted and marginalized thats for sure, if hed acted normal and separated himself from the girls bullshit hed have been out by 1980
And the murders would have been known as what they were, The Charles Watson murders
Charlie ate up the attention just like any other kid who grew up unwanted and marginalized thats for sure, if hed acted normal and separated himself from the girls bullshit hed have been out by 1980.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Now you're excusing Charlie from all blame? Because he was an "unwanted and marginalized kid". You're blaming it on the GIRLS? He's the one who collected the girls. He's the one who pimped out the girls.
THE GIRLS?
You're blaming Charlie's incarceration on the GIRLS?
Guess again, and the first 2 tries don't count!
Not absolving him of blame but hes not guilty of first degree murder in my mind, theres just too much evidence that Helter Skelter is garbage and the motives for the murders were for financial gain, be it money and/or drugs
And no i dont blame Charlies incarceration on the girls i blame it on him, he chose to make a spectacle of himself and play right into Vinces hands
Not absolving him of blame but hes not guilty of first degree murder in my mind, theres just too much evidence that Helter Skelter is garbage and the motives for the murders were for financial gain, be it money and/or drugs
Lucky you! You figured it out! HA HA.
How much money did they get at Cielo Drive? How many drugs did they get at Cielo Drive?
How much money did they get at Waverly Drive? How many drugs did they get at Waverly Drive?
You clowns are all alike.
Now excuse me while I get back to my book, which is much more interesting than you are!
Let me ask you Katie if HS was a legitinate story why did Bugliosi dismiss it duringbTexs trial arguing that Tex was his own man in control if his actions not under Mansons control? Why did Tex and Susan both dismiss HS as a motive in their books when it was in their best interests to go with the official narrative to obtain parole? Why did Vince tell an interviewer in the late 70s that he doubted Helter Skelter was the reason for the murders?
How would ANYONE except Tex and the girls know what or wasnt taken from Cielo and Waverly? The homicide report said that Rostau had made a delivery of drugs earlier that night to Cielo, if the reason for Cielo was Helter Skelter why did Tex say upon Folger only having 70 bucks "this is all you have?" to which Frykowski said "how much do you want?" and Tex says "i want thousands!!" If the motive was Helter Skelter why stop killing on Aug. 10? The raid wasnt until Aug. 16, why not find more victims on the 11-15th?
Are you lame?
I've said this 1000 times, and I'll say it again. Bugliosi didn't believe in Helter Skelter, he used it to convict Manson.
It doesn't matter what you call it, he got those kids to kill folks.
PERIOD. End of Story.
And you didn't answer my question. What drugs and money was taken from TLB?
Never mind, I'm gonna read my book.
We'll talk tomorrow.
I never claimed i figured anything out but common sense and wisdom tells me that most murders have a financial gain or revenge motive behind them, havent you ever wondered why Suzan Struthers didnt lobby for Pat or Leslie to be paroled but only Tex in her mothers murder? She inherited quite a bit of money didnt she? Why did she show up to the house with a moving truck days after the murders?
And my answer was aside from the 72 bucks that they talked about i dont know but i also dont know that they didnt get anything at Cielo either
So basically youre saying that Helter Skelter was merely a theory that Vince used to convict Charlie and the girls and i agree, i think Vince took Charlies bullshit con talk and realized he could sell a jury on race wars, hippie cult leaders, holes in the desert, "random" killings and he was right, he scared them enough to come back with a guilty verdict
I already said, we'll talk tomorrow.
Ok goodnight
And you still didn't answer my question: What money and drugs were taken from Cielo & Waverly Drive? Since you are the one who brought it up, please let us know that.
Tomorrow.
Night!
Susan can you connect Rostau to Tex?
Also, the amount of money that Rosemary had and Suzanne inherited is debatable. And why she tried to get Tex out and not the girls is a mystery to me. But there's a lot of stuff about this case that just doesn't add up.
Just like you said theres alot of stuff that doesnt add up, all i can do is go on the homicide report that states there was a significant drug delivery up there and also a large MDA shipment discussed about being delivered to Frykowski when he met with Harrigan either the 6th or 7th at Cielo, call me naive but murders just dont happen at random, if you go with the thought that Manson wanted to kill celebrities to strike fear in the establishment or get revenge on the music business then why not kill Wilson, Melcher, Mama Cass, John Phillips, all of whom he knew instead of a marginally known actress like Sharon, with Labianca maybe the amount of the inheritance wasnt 2 plus million but it was still pretty significant, also Earl Deemer said when investigators checked either the safe at Safeway or Rosemarys shop on Monday morning it had been cleaned out and the door left open, my theory is that Charlie was looking for money to pay back the Satans on the drug thing and also get out to Barkers, notice how after dropping off Tex, Pat and Susan they went to Venice, the Satans club was very close to Naders building, Charlie most likely went there when he dropped off Linda, Clem and Susan at hus building and possibly paid off the bikers with money that Leno either had on him or in the house, also back to the Rostau-Tex connection, remember Rostau had been robbed at gunpoint of cocaine at his apartment in April, he was tied up with his girlfriend Karlene who was Sebrings secretary and uf i remember correctly shot in the foot, they both told cops they were robbed by two men with southern accents and one called the other one Charles, im not saying for sure it was Watson but it definitely fits his MO
Also remember the drug dealing clique in Hollywood and off the Strip at that time was a very small group, remember Charlies statement "we all ran in the same circles", Dennis Hopper has said the same thing saying that the Cielo people were known by Manson and the "family" and after the murders alot of people in Hollywood got very quiet not wanting to become involved or implicated, fo you think Warren Beatty, Peter Sellers and Yul Brynner put up that 25k reward out of the kindness of their hearts? LAPD told numerous people the tapes found in the loft involved alot of explicit material with quite a few big names
Also made a mistake on the first reply, it was Tex, Pat and Leslie dropped off at Waverly not Tex, Pat and Susan
Rostau's girlfriend is the one who said he delivered drugs to Cielo that day. He denied doing that, so it's a kind of "he said, she said". Although I don't know why she would say that if it wasn't true unless she was trying to get him in trouble.
I don't know why Charlie wouldn't want to kill Wilson, Mama Cass, etc, except that Tex said he said to go the the place where "Melcher used to live". I've always thought that maybe that house represented rejection to him. Also, Mama Cass and the others could possibly been having a big party that night. It was a Friday night after all. But that's all just conjecture.
I doubt that Leno had $1,000 in cash on him. I don't think Leno's assets were that liquid. They even financed that boat they had instead of paying cash for it. I think it cost around $4,000. So if he didn't have the cash to buy that boat I doubt he had much cash in his pocket.
I don't know why Charlie would pick the LaBiancas if he was just looking for lots of cash. Unless he knew something about Leno that we're not aware of.
One question: If Cielo Drive was about stealing drugs, why kill everybody? Why not just take the drugs and leave? It's not like they're gonna call the cops or anything. And if drugs were the motive, why wouldn't Tex just say that? It's not like it's gonna make him look worse than he already does.
Because either Jay or Voytek jumped gim and being on speed he flipped out, the gun is easily explained as something that 99 percent of dealers carry with them for protection, Jay was known to have one but not that night and Romans .45 was in the house on that night, Rostau is obviously not going to admit making a drug delivery, it sets him up for months of investigation into the murders and even if hes cleared makes him a target for police for future surveillance, Shrecks theory on Leno was that he was involved with the Beach Boys management as a money man or finance guy, Charlie has made reference numerous times as the mafioso with the little black book
If murder was the intent the girls arent going to be carrying tiny little clasp type buck knives, on night two they didnt even bring anything except Tex and his bayonet, they were forced to use knives from the kitchen
Well if the murders at Cielo occurred because Tex got jumped and spooked, why wouldn't they all just say that? That sounds like a whole lot more of a defense than saying "I'm the Devil and I'm here to do the Devil's business, and you're all gonna die".
Has Charlie ever admitted to knowing the LaBiancas?
To an extent they did admit that, i believe all 3 in the house said once Jay made his approach Tex shot him and a hell broke loose, Charlie has made reference to knowing of Leno through the Beach Boys manager who Charlie says refused to pay him his due on Never learn not to love, says the guy got on the phone to gmhis "mafia money man" suggesting it was Leno
Another Tex/Rostau connection is Eugene Massaro who Tex was getting lids of grass from and re selling at a huge profit with Luella in Hollywood, Tex mentioned him in his book although not by name but the implication was clear, he called him his "vending machine connection" which is what Massaro did as a front, Massaro and Rostau sold stolen securities together and i believe was one of the reasons Rostau ended up dead in the trunk of a car at JFK airport in New York in 1970
Also according to an FBI report on Massaro one of his MOs during home invasions was "injuring phone lines"....sound familiar?
Never Learn Not To Love. HA HA. What a stupid name.
But if they stole his song, they should have paid him. That's only fair.
You know you can connect Tex to every Ruffian in CA, but it still doesn't explain anything. That beanpole never fully explained anything. That book he wrote is a joke!
And BTW, I can only imagine that those "Tex tapes" are just full of his lying ramblings that he's already said in his book.
I'm sure his parents were buried the day they found out that he was the "grisly killer" in CA. He not only killed the victims, he killed their families and his own family.
Way to go TEX!
Youre not gonna get any argument from me on Tex, hes the worst of the worst and even though im very leary of the death penalty he is one guy id have loved seeing gasping for air in the little green pod at San Quentin but some of the stuff he said in his book was true
Speaking of the little grern room did they ever put that piece of shit Richard Allen Davis to death yet?
I don't know who Richard Allen Davis is. I guess I missed that one.
Hes was a lifetime criminal scumbag who killed little Polly Klaas from i thnk Petaluma and when convicted accused her dad in the middle of the courtroom of abusing her as they were dragging him away
The judge when sentencing him to death said "normally sentencing a defendant to death is a very emotional and traumatic experience for a judge but sentencing you today was very easy" lol hows that for some final words?
Wow, what a CREEP!
Yeah a real POS, one of those people youd like to see actually draw the death process out and make it longer, weve got a bastard here where i live whos been on death row since 02 who dragged a beautiful little 6 year old girl down to an old abandoned factory down by a river raped her and smashed her head in with a big rock and the scumbag is still sitting in there eating, breathing, watching tv, exercising, etc, im counting the days until they exterminate him
Luckily weve got a young conservative ex navy seal governor in this state now who doesnt sympathize with these animals so hopefully he'll be put to death soon
Davis is evil through and through. I remember well what he did...abducting Polly Klaas from her home in Petaluma, California...just north of the Golden Gate Bridge...she was having a sleep over with friends..a beautiful young girl..he needs to rot in hell for eternity. At his sentencing, when asked if he wanted to say anything...the son of a bitch said Polly told him just don't do me like my Dad does. Polly's father shouted Fuck you Davis and left the courtroom. All these years later, he's still on California's death row.
And I'll never forget Theodore Frank...in the mid 1970's, a few weeks after being released after serving a mere four years as a mentally disturbed sex offender, he dropped his wife off at work and promptly plucked a sweet little two year old child named Amy Sue out of her babysitter's fenced yard, gave her alcohol, raped her, tortured her breasts with pliers, strangled her, and then dumped the sweet little baby down a canyon. He molested another child before he was caught a month or two later. He was finally sentenced to die...after a couple trials, but sat on death row for years...even had a coronary artery bypass graft at the taxpayers expense to prolong his sick ass life while he waited for appeals. His argument was that the jury never should have been allowed to hear excerpts of his personal journals where he wrote about molesting, raping, torturing more than a hundred children. He finally had a heart attack, alone, in his cell on death row at San Quentin. He's rotting in hell now where he belongs.
That death was too good for him, he deserved to be brutally tortured for weeks before death
Theodore Frank called himself "a good clean child molester" but he was one sick sadistic sob that enjoyed mutiliating children while they were still alive to feel the torture. It was Chief Justice Rose Bird's California court that overturned his death sentence and ordered a new penalty phase. California voters had enough of Jerry Brown's Rose Bird and her liberal court refusing to uphold death sentences...during her time, she overturned more than 60, and she was removed from office with two other liberal judges...
The sadistic killer was again sentenced to death. His lawyer's argument was that he was sick...but there was no question that the death penalty was created for killers like Frank. What a narcissistic SOB he was..being a "good clean child molester" (who liked to tear off skin and bash in the skulls of children) Frank had the gall to say that the court process and his long years on death row amounted to cruel and unusual punishment.
And open heart surgery, while on death row at the taxpayers expense...unbelievable. Liberals, to this day, defend the open heart surgery with stupid logic..."he deserved a chance...there is never any certainty." Oh please, he admitted what he enjoyed doing to children, there was absolutely no question of his guilt.
The piece of shitis still alive. Katie Watsons parents took their name off the gas station the day after the news broke. The father sounded ok but the mom was too controlling. Nelson spoke to the mom and about her son and all she could say was her "boy has personality plus."
Beauders,
Do you have anymore info on an interview with Tex's Mother or Father ? Thanks.
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
if the internet and social media had been around in 69-70 Manson likely wouldnt have been convicted, after Caballero and Caruso sold Atkins stories to the higest bidder and then Bugliosi was able to push his narrative with nobody there to question it Mansons goose was cooked.
Maybe, Remember though , there was a lot writers including Sander's who at first believed Manson was being framed. I suspect he would have still been convicted but, he would have had woman swooning after him like the Menez bro's. Just a guess.
Msnson was framed that isnt even a question whrn you look at the evidence
PhD sociologist and criminologist Jack Levin interviewed Charlie and believes hes innocent, like Charlie told him when Levin asked him if he brainwashed them to kill Charlie said no i didnt, i can see where they maybe wanted to please me but I didn't tell them to kill anyone
PhD sociologist and criminologist Jack Levin interviewed Charlie and believes hes innocent, like Charlie told him when Levin asked him if he brainwashed them to kill Charlie said no i didnt, i can see where they maybe wanted to please me but I didn't tell them to kill anyone
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said
Msnson was framed that isnt even a question whrn you look at the evidence.
It is statemments like this that you make that make it so hard for me to engage in a conversation with you. Manson was framed , Framed by who and why? Are if I may dare ask ? I mean when you say it that way it's like he just happened to be walking around town, cops said thought what shit head , lets pin mass murder on him. Really ? Do you really think I mean do you really think he was just this bystander with a harem of men & woman who killed people and just became the scapegoat / Why ? Why was he even there then ? Just happened to get mixed up with a bad group ? TheTex Watkins group ? Charlie didn't have the sense to get away from them ? or is thatwhy he went to death valley ? Hoping the bad people didn't follow him ? WTF
Hi Bobby, totally agree with you. Every word.
When the sociologist asked Charlie if he brainwashed anyone to kill, I wonder if he also asked him if he told anyone to "do what Tex tells you to do" and I wonder if he asked him if he invaded the LaBianca hone with Tex, and brought Rosemary out to the living room where Leno was tied up? And I wonder if he asked old Charlie if he understood "conspiracy to murder"...
Great to see you Bobby
Hi Marliese, Thanks for the kind words & hope all is well with you.
Charlie told him when Levin asked him if he brainwashed them to kill Charlie said no i didnt, i can see where they maybe wanted to please me but I didn't tell them to kill anyone.
To me just as in numerous interviews ol Charlie denies & then follows up with a tease of guilt. Again, I didn't tell people to kill but some how they knew it would please me. Really ?
Of course its not that simple man, come on, nothing ever is, im saying yes Charlie was an influence on these kids and they wanted to prove themselves,to him and yes Charlie played the and used them just like any lifetime con uses people, im saying Charlie had no interest in murder or killing anyone, Crowe was him defending himself out of fear for himself and the ranch, why does mist everyone gave such a gard time belueving that Tex is the driving force between the murders? He was running his own dope scams independently of Charlie and was involved in every murder or attempted murder except Hinman
Sorry about all the fuckin typos i hate typing on these stupid phones
Marliese of course Charlie didnt understand the conspiracy laws theyre fairly complex, im sure theres first year law students that dont completely understand them, heres the way it is even if Manson told the girls to "do what Tex says" (and thats a big if) that doesnt mean he knew Tex was going to go nuts snd kill everyone, you simply cannot go on words snd testimony of killers who have changed their stories more times than i can count, both Tex and Susan said in the books that HS was complete bullshit and copycat and money were the motives, Pst said she thought theyvwere going there to rob the place, Linda had reason to lie, if she wasnt in the house as she claims she wasnt how can she testify to the "im the devil and im here to do the devils business" line? If HS is the motive why not pick more well known celebs? They knew Dennis Wilson, Melcher, Jakobsen, Mama Cass, John and Michelle Phillips, Brian Wilson, Mike Love, etc, why not kill them? Why not kill more people from the 11th through the 15th before the raid? Charlies race war bullshit was just con talk shit hed been doing his whole life to make himself sound important and profound, he was an attention seeker, the kids may have believed it but the murders were just a scheme by Tex to get dope and drugs nothing more
Dope and money not dope and drugs, sorry
Meaning it was something they thought would impress him, remember im not saying that Charlie didnt talk about killing people in anger or frustration but theres nobway he wanted it to happen
Also things didnt start taking a turn for the worst at the ranch until Tex moved there after getting the boot by Dennis and he started going back and forth between Spahn and Rosinas running dope deals and scams culminating with his cowardly Crowe ripoff, if that incident doesnt give you insight into Texs personality i dont know what will, he skips out the back with 2500 bucks leaving a woman he professed to love and was at one time pregnant with his child in the hands of an angry gun weilding drug dealer who was threatening to kill and rape her? And somehow Manson is the bad guy and criminal mastermind? Come on now
The fact that so many people get so emotional and irrational when someone merely suggests Mansons innocence in these killings goes to show how fucking masterfully Bugliosi spun this yarn and kept the charade going for so many years, Bugliosi was a liar, perjurer, stalker, women beater, extortionist, mob stooge and self promoter of the worst kind and dare i say would have been implicit in capital murder if Charlie had been executed, Bugs was the absolute worst example of the legal profession
Oh c'mon, first year law student. Any adult, moral adult anyway, knows that you're guilty of massive crimes when you enter a private home, and hand off the occupants to a mad man and crew you know butchered people 24 hours earlier. You're going to have to come up with something better. Don't be so stupid as to say he didn't know Tex was going to go nuts and kill everyone. He knew. You make one valid point though, regarding the word of co-defendants. But that's not what happened here. And even though it was carefully planned so as not to be words of co defendants, there was credible corroborating evidence and testimony. Charlie was stupid. Charlie loved the infamy. I would imagine he still does. Just please don't disrespect the victims and the unspeakable suffering they endured by saying Charlie didn't know Tex was gonna go nuts and kill everyone. You're smarter than that...no?
You talk about Tex not being at Hinman murder, but Charlie was there before he was killed, and inflicted a devastating wound..with a deadly weapon,to Gary's face, so he was very capable of killing, at the least of attempted murder. And he was on the grounds when Donald Shea was killed.
Oh and for the record, there has never been any confirmation that Rosemary left her children a two million estate. You made a statement the other day that Suzan inheriting two million from her mother may have influenced her decision to forgive Tex. Proof please...of the two million? Most proof includes mostly DEBT.
Sorry but we just disagree, i will agree that Charlie was guilty of breaking and entering with Waverly, assault with Hinman and possibly returning to Cielo to tamper with evidence but nothing more
Charlie "giving orders" is Bugliosi the psychopaths pipe dream
Bugs had alot of powerful Hollywood people to protect with this case, movies and TV is LAs lifeblood like cars to Detroit, Cielo was a know spot for all kinds of sick shit, private pornos with underage people, drugs, etc, do you think it was out of the kindness of their hearts that Warren Beatty, Peter Sellers and Yul Brynner put up a 25k reward or that Gibbys father spent 200k keeping his daughters life hush hush?
Show me the proof that the inheritance was debt, the homicide report says it was 2.4 million thats what im going on
What sucks to me are these people that want to turn the victums & their families into bad people seeking pub and the one yes one of the prosecutors as the evil master mind to frame poor Charlie incarnate and poor harmless chicken shit passive Charlie as the railroaded victum. Didn't we all cover this like ten years ago ?
Really ? People believe & think this way still.
Show me the proof that the inheritance was debt, the homicide report says it was 2.4 million thats what im going on/
Dude, that has been covered so many times over the years I cant believe you even bring it up. I don't have time to explain but there was no 2.4 million.
Tell me how, better yet show me any kind of official document that shows it wasnt what was claimed in the homicide report
Well Dave the lawyer over on MansonBlog did the best job explaining it, I know they wont let you post anymore but you could read the explaination. Amd then you can show me where someone was awarded 2.4 million from the estate.
You're going off the homicide report for the two million, Sag??? Again, you are smarter than that. Frank Struthers Sr, Rosemary's alcoholic gambler former husband and father of Frank Jr., told the police he expects his son will come into a sizable estate with the death of his mother. What an apartment dwelling virtually penniless alcoholic former husband with a gambling problem thinks about Rosemary's estate is not proof. You'll have to come up with something better than that, SAG.
Unfortunately, Leno and Rosemary had a lot of debt, their home and valuable possessions...cars, boat, businesses, were mortgaged and or financed. They gave up the Disney house because they couldn't afford it. There has never been any proof Rosemary left her children a two million dollar estate. It so, it would be public record, so research it, find it and pay for it...don't be too disappointed if the two million turns out to be projected income, hearsay, or outright wishful thinking though.
It was said in the investigative report that Leno had a life insurance policy with all five children...as beneficiaries. Rosemary did not have insurance. I doubt Frank Sr knew the details of Leno's life insurance policy, or if he'd consider twenty grand per child "sizable." Maybe so. Or maybe he was just assuming...a guy like Leno must've had a lot...fancy cars, boat, horses, nice addresses, inherited interests etc etc etc
Another thing, California is a community property state, so you might want to research what happened to the elusive, unproven two million, and what steps Rosemary would have taken to protect her personal assets....under community property circumstances. But don't be too surprised if there was very little...other than debt.
Funny how you like to tell everyone not believe everything you hear, or the stories of known liars...
Bob...:)
Starship wrote 3 threads on the subject of Rosemary's estate.
They can be found here:
http://www.lsb3.com/search/label/Rosemary%27s%202%20Million%20Estate?m=0
Like i said show me she wasnt
Again im not seeing any proof posted that she didnt gave the money, if youre claiming it shoukd be a part of Cslifornia record slot of facts of this case that should be public record arent, theres no official death revords through ancestry on any of the victims except Leno and Shorty
Besides the inheritance is only one minor point i brought up
Someone show me PROOF of Charlies so called ordering the murders and this mind control and brainwashing that wasnt later denied by the people who claimed it
Susan said:
I will agree that Charlie was guilty of breaking and entering with Waverly, assault with Hinman and possibly returning to Cielo to tamper with evidence but nothing more."
I hate to get involved in this squabble, but I'm pretty sure that if Bernard Crowe had reported his chest wound to the police, it would have been considered a felony. Charlie shot the man at point-blank range. If nothing else, Charlie would have been a Defendant in a court of law, once again.
Sag, Why wouldn't very wealthy Peter Folger threaten legal consequences or otherwise protect the legacy of his beautiful, educated, hardworking, generous, charitable, heiress daughter against anyone spewing hate filled gossip, or worse...making money from spewing hate filled gossip? It's what very rich people, especially very rich fathers, do. Certainly, few, other than her family, protected her in death.
Pretty sure with Crowe a self defense strategy ciuld have been used by defense attorneys based on witnesses at the scene but ill even give you that one, none of those offenses equal murder
Hes got a daughter involved with a known drug dealer (Frykowski), and most likely Sebring, living in a home where known sex parties are being held, not gonna look to good to the upper crust San Francisco Radcille educated society she came from
Also given the time, given that Crowe was black, a dealer and a known Black Panther i doubt the police would have even pursued it
Think about it, why do you think Crowe didnt even report it? He was no dummy, he knew white cops would just shrug their shoulders and laugh it off
Not to mention living with two jews Voytek and Roman with Roman known as a director of satanic and black magic based movies
Have tried, maybe not always but from time to time, to give Pat Krenwinklel a bit of...not necessarily compassion, and certainly not understanding, but some kind of benefit for her poor self esteem and her life situation circumstances....until...she said, decades after the murders and many years into her life in prison, that Abigail Folger...and I don't think she even called her by her given name, could have been more than she was. How dare she say such a thing. Abigail Folger did much in her short life, and would have achieved great things and given much to society...if Pat Krenwinkle and crew hadn't stabbed her so brutally that the last words she uttered in her very young life were the begging "I'm already dead." You gotta stay in prison, Pat, with that one...
They all do.
Next to Tex Pat deserves to be there the most, she was the most vicious of the girls, they should bury her UNDER the damn jail
Susan, there is no proof that there was any sexual debauchery going on at Cielo Drive that was found on tape. The police report said the tapes were Sharon & Roman, and they gave them back to Roman. The rest of that is just BS. Roman and Sharon were hardly even living at Cielo Drive. They rented it in February of 1969, Roman left shortly thereafter and didn't return until after the murders. Sharon left in March of 1969, returning in late July of 1969. Don't even try to pin the murders on that crap!
And Abigail Folger was not only donating money to FREE VD Clinics to help these Scabbed-Over dirty-assed Manson dirtbags, she was DONATING HER TIME there too. Folger is so far above Pat Krenwinkel. Don't EVEN start talking about her living with a drug addict.
Her income was $125,000/year!!! That would probably be over half a million a year by now. But she didn't act like a goofy Paris Hilton or some stupid Kardashian loser. She spent her time trying to help people.
She hooked up with the wrong guy, yes that's true, but she was a good and loving person. And she was taking steps to get away from that guy after her move from Cielo Drive. In fact, she was going to see her mother to discuss it when her life was cut short by these scumbags.
That $2 Million dollars that Rosemary supposedly had came in a fake news report in the newspaper. As Lynyrd says, Starship spent hours researching Rosemary's money, the endless court hearings that were held, and pretty much determined that the $2 Million was incorrect. Read what Starship reports, then come back and argue!
The tapes of Sharon with Dean Martin, Steve McQueen, the two bi black guys are all common knowledge of being in LAPDs possesion, they had many many parties up there attended by Doyle, Dawson, Harrigan, Carruthers, Tacot, Bill Garretson told polygraph investigators he witnessed nude women being filmed by Frykowski by the pool, again there was a reason why Beatty, Sellers and Brynner put up that money, also dont forget even in the police report Sebring was known to be into filming S&M scenes and to whip female participants, Dennis Hopper told an interviewer about all the kinky shit going on at Cielo, ask yourself this do you REALLY think Roman just started getting into 13 year old girls at age 44 in 1977? Come on now
That link doesnt work for me but if i look at it and it looks legit ill admot i was wrong about it but if im not mistaken about it even Bugliosi who as we know was NEEEEEEVVVVVER wrong admitted that the number was accurate and that Rosemary "seemed to have come into the money through very non conventional means", take that for what you will
Its also kind of funny to me to hear the "there was no sexual debauchery going on at Cielo" when 1) there were private sex videos found in the loft which isnt even disputed 2) theres photos of Sharon and Jay taken at Cielo with her in skimpy attire and him in swim shorts that clearly show his penis 3) Jay is hanging around all the time while being knownvas a sado masochist 4) Garretson reports nude women swimming in the pool and being filmed by Frykowski, 5) a man living there who 8 years lster would flee the country after drugging and anally raping a 13 year old girl 6) Debra Tate is taking nude photos with Pic Dawson on the Cielo property
Susan said:
The tapes of Sharon with Dean Martin, Steve McQueen, the two bi black guys are all common knowledge of being in LAPDs possesion
Really? Have you seen them? Can you share them?
Bill Garretson told polygraph investigators he witnessed nude women being filmed by Frykowski by the pool
Sharon & Roman weren't even there then.
also dont forget even in the police report Sebring was known to be into filming S&M scenes and to whip female participants, Dennis Hopper told an interviewer about all the kinky shit going on at Cielo,
Have you seen these films? I wouldn't exactly use Dennis Hopper as a pillar of society. Did he prove any of this other than just saying it.
Do you know how many people claim to have been invited to Cielo Drive that night, just to get attention? There are so many actors/actresses who were being picked over in 1969/1970 that just wanted their names in the news to get attention. And they used horrible murders to just get attention in the news.
And BTW, Dennis Hopper was NOT an acknowledged actor back in 1969. Easy Rider? BIG FUCKING DEAL. Nobody saw that movie back then. Maybe 6% of the country even paid to see that CRAP back in 1969. People didn't want to watch a bunch of dirty hippies riding motorcycles. Except the hippies.
That movie became a cult classic much later, but back then, nobody had even heard of Dennis Hopper. That fucker was just trying to get his name in the newspaper back then.
And Roman Polanski's pedophile crap has nothing to do with (1) Sharon, (2) Cielo Drive or (3) this murder case!
Please don't infer that.
Take that for what you will!
Sure it does, do you HONESTLY believe Roman wasntbdoing things,with underage kids at Cielo, the Chateau Marmont, Summitt Ridge, The beach hou se, etc? People dont pick up pedophilia at age 44
Hed been in movies with James Dean in the 50s
For that matter have you seen Charlie brainwashing anyone? Point is were all going off reports, eyewitnesses, rumor, etc
Lol ok Katie just ignore all the police reports and eyewitnesses and deny it because "did you actually see it?" Of course i didnt fuckin see any of it i was 2 years away from being born lol
Lol ok Katie just ignore all the police reports and eyewitnesses and deny it because "did you actually see it?" Of course i didnt fuckin see any of it i was 2 years away from being born lol
Well, I don't know how you can keep throwing out "facts" that you haven't verified. And believe me, I don't care how many "bit parts" Dennis Hopper had before 1969, nobody had heard of him. That's a fact. Take a survey!
As far as Charlie's brainwashing, all you have to do is go by the killers' accounts.
"Leslie: I begged with my eyes. I wanted Charlie to be proud of me".
"Pat: I had to do what Charlie wanted".
Sure it does, do you HONESTLY believe Roman wasntbdoing things,with underage kids at Cielo, the Chateau Marmont, Summitt Ridge, The beach hou se, etc? People dont pick up pedophilia at age 44
Do you have any proof of that? The first I heard of Roman's pedophilia was Geimer. Can you offer other proof of earlier crimes that Roman committed?
And you can't just guess or surmise. Anybody could do that. Please offer proof.
Some Joel Rostau information:
http://www.lsb3.com/search/label/Joel%20Rostau?m=0
Then you have Tex and Susan saying it was their own idea in their books, like i said i dont trust anything they say, not Pat and ESPECIALLY not that prostitute and IV drug user Linda, oh child abandoner as well
Its funny how youre usually pretty rough on child molestors but when it comes to Roman you give him the benefit of the doubt
Almost all the prosecution witnesses against Manson had something to gain by testifying and most were law breaking pieces of shit, if Charlie had been able to cross examine them hed have shredded them to bits
I HATE what Roman Polanski did to little girls. But this has NOTHING to do with these murders! NOTHING!! If you want to discuss Roman Polanski's molestation of little girls, I'll start a new thread! It's a separate subject!
And Charlie wasn't able to cross examine the prosecution's witnesses because he was a FUCKING IDIOT who couldn't act normal on HIS BEST DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Charles Manson was his own worst enemy. He talked garbage all the time. He never made any sense to anyone with an IQ above 3. If he had any brains at all, he would have tried to be nice sometimes.
Now, having said that, I'm going to bed. It's late here. If you want to keep on with this, we'll do it tomorrow.
Night.
Susan said:
Almost all the prosecution witnesses against Manson had something to gain by testifying and most were law breaking pieces of shit, if Charlie had been able to cross examine them hed have shredded them to bits
How would he have shredded them to bits???
Hmmm, I guess Susan doesn't have an answer, or he's busy doing something else. LOL.
Oh well, whatever...
BTW the Menendez Brothers show starts Tuesday on NBC at 9pm Central.
Think about it, Linda, DeCarlo, Watkins, Brooks, all the shit he had on the lol, hed have exposed then for the lying piece of shit criminals they were and what they had to gain by testifying
Well, Charlie was the magnet that drew those scumbags to him. There's an old saying: "When you lie in the mud, you wake up with the pigs".
Nah they were already trash before they got there, not saying Charlie was any better, like Dennis Wilson said, "Charlie was a criminal and an asshole but this family shit is all wrong, i know"
Bobby I really don't know much about the Watson's other than what Nelson said in his 'books.' Katie and SAG I think things were probably pretty loose at Cielo, drug wise and sex wise. I've heard many rumors of Tate being filmed with two black men, which would have been a hell of a scandal at the time. Polanski appears to have held it over Brynners, Sellers, and Beatty's head's a sex film they made with Mama Cass. God I'd love to see that one. But and this is a big but so what. They were consenting adults who cares. I believe if Polanski was making films with himself and underage girls they are long gone. He went around and scooped up all but one copy "The Helter Skelter Murders" so I'm sure he got rid of any films he made. Secondly if one suspects kiddie porn is being made somewhere you go to the police you don't go to said house (unless it's your kid) and commit mass barbaric murder.
Im kind of the same mind that Schreck is on this, it brings Hollywood into a scandal if Bugliosi cant divert attention away from it, im not a big conspiracy guy but theres enough smoke with this thing that you have to wonder if theres a fire, if Helter Skelter wasnt such a wacky theory and Bugliosi had just gone with the drug angle which i personally think the motive was (and money) then i dont think TLB would even be a blip on the screen today
Charlie brought up the kiddie porn angle in an interview but it was after the Geimer incident so i think it was just Charlie bullshit but there were alot of rumors about Roman bringing girls back from the Strip
I wonder which 2 black men they used.....
No kidding Katie and why haven't they, or one of them come forward. It wouldn't have hurt their reputations.
Tate was not racist, one of the women she had lunch with the day of her murder was the great singer Barbara Lewis. The other was Joanna Pettit.
Who suggested she was?
I dont remember where i read the thing about the 2 bi black guys but i remember it said the cops werent happy about it lol i guess you have to consider it was 1969 and that type of thing wasnt exactly mainstream
I didn't think anyone said Tate was racist, just making a comment.
Oh ok, i wouldn't have thought she was even if no one said anything, she seemed like a really sweet girl
Both Tate and Folger were good people.
SAG why did you get kicked off Matt's blog?
I dont know, hes being an asshole, Grim REALLY brings out the jerk in me, i cant stand that guy
Guy just spews a bunch of bullshit and throws a few dates that he cut and pastes to make it sound like he knows what hes talking about
That's weird I have always found Matt and Grim to be good guys, but to each their own.
Beauders of course Tate was not a racist. And yes she did have lunch with the great singer Barbara Lewis who was AWESOME!
But when rumors surface like this, (not from you) it makes my skin crawl that people are trying to insinuate something into Sharon's life, and it's not fair because she can't argue back because unfortunately Tex Watson decided that she should just DIE!
When these murders happened, I remember the press was unrelenting about her and her friends: drugs, devil worship, indecency, humiliation, horrible stuff. I think the press did it to make everyone feel safe because decent people don't get killed over nothing.
Then December 1st, 1969 happened, and we realized when Susan spoke to the Grand Jury, that these murders were all about NOTHING. She said as much. And it's the ONLY time I believe her to be telling the truth
I don't like Susan Atkins. I feel bad that she had a horrible life, but I don't agree that she should turn so horribly bad that she decided who lived or died.
AND I blame that on Charles Manson. And I believe that to be the truth. And if anyone doesn't agree, they can kiss my grits!
Katie I think the Krenwinkel, Atkins, and Van Houten were brainwashed by Manson but Tex on the other hand, had his own motives.
Well Beauders, Tex is his own monster. I think it was half & half. I think Tex had his own agenda, but he loved Charlie's other agenda.
Does that make sense?
I agree on Sharon, i dont care if she gang banged the Dallas Cowboys its her life and it doesnt mean she deserved to die, like i said earlier im sure she was a real sweetheart, i feel bad for her because i think she was looking for someone to love her, when youre as physically attractive as her there are always people with ulterior motives around, people think its all peaches and cream being that beautiful but im sure it came with its share of problems, i dont think Roman respected her, he may have loved her in his own twisted way but you dont treat a woman you love the way he treated her
Tex Watson loved 3 things, Tex Watson, drugs and killing
And i have NO DOUBT that if released even at age 72 hed kill again
If Tex Watson had been tried in Texas (which is impossible) he would be pushing up daisies by now, because everyone in Texas HATED that he was involved in these murders.
Pat, Susan and Leslie were unloved children, unloved children grow up seeking acceptance and attention and Charlie gave it to them, he told them they were beautiful, capable, and deserving of love, that turned to shit at some point but it doesnt excuse their personal responsibility
And why Sharon married Roman Polanski is a mystery to me. I would have kicked him to the curb because he's a creepy motherfucker!
But I can't speak for Sharon. Because she's dead.
He reminds me of a quote Ted Bundy told cops when they were asking him where Kim Leachs body was "im the most cold blooded son of a bitch youll ever meet"
It reminds me of the saying "the generosity of women never ceases to amaze me"
Pat and Leslie weren't unloved children. That's bullshit. They were both unappreciative children. They were middle class progeny. They just went for Manson because they didn't want to work. Period.
Same thing for red, blue & white or whatever the fucking color you give them.
Just because youre taken care of financially and have your needs met and youre comfortable doesnt always mean youre loved, my guess is that Pat and Leslie didnt feel loved, parents in these situations will always say "i dont know how this happened, we loved them and did the best we could"
Plus alot of kids in the late 60s didnt want to work or be a part of the establishment but very few killed people
Well, I'll tell you what!
I lived thru divorce and I got a job when I was in High School, and later got a full time job when I got out.
I was taken care of financially until I got on my own and I didn't kill folks.
Back then, we didn't have to say "I love you" sixty billion times. People just knew it.
I agree with you but remember Pat, Susan, Leslie and Linda were anomalies, like i said 99.999999999999 percent of people arent going to kill, and im also not using how they felt as an excuse im using it to show their mind set
On kind ofcan unrelated note i think the reason were seeing this spoiled, petulant behavoir by these pampered millenial athletes basically pissing on the flag and the national anthem is a symptom of this pampering "everyone gets a trophy, theres no winner or loser" mentality parents are raising kids with today
Yeah Susan they're a bunch of sissy boys. People should stop watching football games. Won't hurt me one bit.
Atkins did come from a shitty home. I believe that Van Houten's illegal abortion really hurt her emotionally and set her on a wandering course until she Beausoleil. I know someone who had an illegal abortion as a teenager and it affected her, her whole. I think Krenwinkel suffered general neglect and felt like an outsider and was ostracized because of the hair situation. So they were all wounded to a certain degree then they met Manson who brainwashed them. No excuses for the murders though, plenty of people had/has it rougher and they didn't kill anyone.
If those guys lost their jobs as football players they couldn't earn a living scrubbing floors. They're the last thing people need to think about nowadays. We've got a lot more important things to think about.
Well it's raining here again. I'm gonna retire and read my book.
Night!
Thanks Beauders, I agree about Atkins. The other two, Van Houten & Krenwinkel, I think they were soft. I think they were looking for something to keep their anger up.
Just my opinion.
Night!
Oh I agree Katie definitely soft and not prepared for much, easy pickins' for Manson.
Lol exactly Katie i just told someone yesterday these guys would be working the fry maker at McDonalds without football and without this country and even the owners are siding with the players, they dont understand most people in this country arent with them, by the middle of the season when they see revenue is down theyll understand
Yeah Susan I agree. If these losers spent even a week in a third world country where they don't have any rights, including making mega millions for a season of play, they'd come crawling back and salute the flag instead of making this childish showing of "kneeling" to bitch about cops.
Katie Saudi Arabia just gave women the right to drive, can you imagine being a woman in shit hole country like that, it must be absolutely hideous.
I know Beauders, can you imagine being a woman in North Korea? Actually there's a lot of countries I can't imagine living in. Brrr....
I watched the first installment of the Menendez Brothers on NBC. Actually I fell asleep during it, but it seems to be okay. I was thinking it was going to lean too much to the left, but so far, it doesn't seem to do that. Unless it did it when I fell asleep. LOL.
I think the 2nd installment is Thursday night.
Just got done watching Aquarius take on Cielo and its alot more interesting than i thought, unfortunately the series was cancelled before we got to see the events of Aug 10 at Labianca, i was at least entertained by the story and the two seasons, Duchovny did a great job as usual as Det Sam Hodiak but Gethin Anthonys portrayal of Charlie was way overdone, all in all though much better than i expected
Some spoilers, Kasabians character was called "Emma" and was the daughter of a rising political climber in the Nixon/Reagan republican California political scene of the time but he had some secrets, was homosexual but married to another social climbing woman, Tex, Pat, Susan, Leslie, Brunner, Bobby and Charlie were all portrayed by name, Dennis Wilson was portrayed as well as Melcher and the Wilson actor was a damn good lookalike, the Hinman murder was pretty close to spot on as well
Thanks Susan, I missed that one. Completely forgot about it. Is that on Netflix now?
If the series was cancelled I guess the general public isn't that interested in this case anymore.
Kasabian's character is the daughter of a CA politician? That's a reach. Isn't she from somewhere up north?
You know, this sounds macabre, but I think that at the parole hearings of these killers, or any other folks that killed multiple people, they should show crime scene photos of the victims.
I think these killers have just scabbed over their memories of what happened, and I think that showing these fresh photos will be like "ripping a bandaid" off their memories and maybe help them remember exactly what they did and why they should never get out.
It will also help the parole board members who are too young to remember these murders to get a first hand account of what happened.
Of course, it would be hard on the victims' families, so they probably wouldn't do it...
You know, Pat made a statement to Charlie after the Cielo Drive killings that I've never understood.
She said "But Charlie, they were so young."
WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN? Was she expecting to encounter a bunch of 80 year olds that would thank her for stabbing them to death and sending them off to Big Daddy Heaven?
What difference does it make how old people are when you're chasing them down and stabbing them to death????
Yeah Katie i should have explained it better, the girl who took on the same role as far as what Kasabian reportedly did at Cielo was the "Emma" character, but as far as being like Linda was theyre polar opposites, the Emma character is the rich daughter of a very high ranking lawyer involved in republican California politics and her mother is a woman who married him for convenience, the dad is bi sexual and has a sexual relationship with Manson having defended him on a criminal case in the late 50s, Emma basically runs away from home and becomes one of Charlies girls and eventually is picked to go along with Tex, Pat and Susan to Cielo on Aug 8, oddly the director picks Emma as the one who checks the guesthouse during the murder scene and she opens the door and sees Bill Garretson standing at the stereo and he looks stunned and she says "be quiet and dont come outside" the rest happens pretty much as the official narrative goes then upon returning to the ranch Charlie is PISSED and screams that they did nothing he told them to do then he and Emma get back in the car and go back to Cielo around 330 and check out the scene, plant some evidence and the last thing you see is them leaving Cielo at 519 am, the whole series is on Netflix and is,really worth a watch its way better than i expected
I think Pat expected them to be a bit more mature and distinguished looking living in Beverly Hills but remember Voytek and Jay were dressed sort of hipsterish and Sharon and Gibby were still in their mid 20s, also remember Steve Parent was 18 and in my opinion looked his age
Kasabian was born in Maine and raised in New Hampshire and as a late teen floated around from Boston to Miami to New Mexico to California
Id be willing to bet with internet access theyve been able to see the crime scene photos, im sure the prison has firewalls set up but if you have time to keep clicking on sites eventually youll find one that can be viewed
Aquarius makes the whole Manson saga alot more complex and intricate than it really was to make the show interesting but they also do a good job interweeving in and out of different sub plots, the black panthers, war protestors, the hippie scene, Duchovnys character is really good, his partner is a young guy who is married to a black woman and eventually falls prey to heroin addiction to escape the pressures of the job and the Manson saga like i said is presented as being alot more complicated than it really was
Its kind of sad that they didnt renew it because its propbably the most interesting thing ive seen on TV in a very long time and not just in the TLB aspect but the whole show was very well acted and the story lines were very interesting, like i said Gethin Anthony im sure is a very good actor but his Manson portrayal is just way overdone and overacted, Duchovnys portrayal as Sam Hodiak is in my opinion the best of his career and most of the other actors were very very good, its definitely worth a watch
BTW if you dont have Netflix i just saw online you can watch full episodes on Dailymotion
Thanks Susan, I have Netflix and I'll check it out when I get a chance. We'll talk tomorrow. I just thought it was funny that the only thing in Pat's mind after chasing people down and killing them was their age. Nothing else seemed to bother her.
That struck me as very odd. I would think that after you chase folks down and stab them to death, age wouldn't be a factor in your memory. Seems like lots of other things would be in your brain.
Anyway we'll talk tomorrow. Gotta get to bed. Lots to do tomorrow.
Night!
I always thought thatvstatement was a very orchestrated move by Krenwinkel to look remorseful and that she was thinking about what shed done when she really didnt give a shit and was hissing at Tex to kill Sharon
beauders said...
SAG why did you get kicked off Matt's blog?
Because he took a perverse delight in being offensive and despite numerous warnings simply refused to tone it down. There's plenty of ways of stating very strongly what you feel and even having a go at people without insulting their race or sexual orientation if people happen to be offended by it. For example, SAG/Dave1971 has said some pretty nasty things here about Mario's mental state, about Marlisese being a cat lady and about me being a 'mulatto.' Now, personally, I'm not bothered but if other people are, it's basic respect & manners to tone down the insults. But SAG just can't help himself and it got to the point that Matt just said 'enough.'
Ironically, in one thread where 114 of SAG's posts were deleted, I defended him and still would. I think 98% of his arguments range from flabby to anemically weak, but he should be free to state them. He should also be free enough within himself to take other people's feelings into account when addressing them.
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
Grim REALLY brings out the jerk in me, i cant stand that guy
I bring out the jerk in you !
So you do believe one person can control another's actions......
Guy just spews a bunch of bullshit and throws a few dates that he cut and pastes to make it sound like he knows what hes talking about
What SAG/Dave1971 really means is that I'm strong in my opinions, I can state them cogently, he can't defeat them and I will link to sites that enable others to see where I've got my facts from or if there are words or phrases that have a particularly English or Black usage, I'll link to there so others can, if they choose, get an idea of what I mean.
I can give you a number of examples where SAG will spew forth a statement and I point out that he's simply wrong and give my sources that show it.
When I've been wrong about something I've publicly stated, if someone links me to the evidence, I don't run away crying. I'm glad and I incorporate it into my present direction.
Simple reality is that SAG has 'issues' with Black people and articulate people to the extent that he can't even acknowledge when I openly state he's made good points that I agree with.
I guess if he's ever in London, we won't be dining out together at Lazziz ! 😀
grimtraveller.....
Well-stated.
Thank You for this Comment.
Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case
Agree with you, Mario...well stated, Grim, as always.
Thank You,
Marliese.
Mario George Nitrini 111
-------
The OJ Simpson Case
Grim your idea of being knowledgeable about the case is falling back on the accepted narrative every single time, no original thinking, no ability to form opinions but i wouldnt expect anything else from a "lorry" driver and by the way Mario is batshit nuts and you thinking hes not tells me all i need to know about you
Every argument you have you pull straight from either Helter Skelter or The Family
grimtraveller
Me and you have had "discussions" on
The Internet, and at times, they have gotton intense. But I have read many of your comments, and I have come to respect (not always agree) with what you have to say.
And just so you know grimtraveler, and everyone else knows, my main focus NOW in The Charles Manson Case & Saga, is what was told to me by a "Person," that belonged to/and still does belong, to this "GROUP," about certain "Happenings" at Spahn Ranch when The Manson Family lived there.
Also, on my Twitter account, I have corresponded with George Christie, who is a former National President of a "GROUP." Mr Christie has given me some answers to questions that I have asked him about, concerning what he knows about "Happenings" at Spahn Ranch when The Manson Family lived there. Mr. Christie's answers to me are "Telling." And the answers coming from George Christie to my questions, lets me know about some
VERY, VERY SERIOUS Situations regarding certain people associated with, and/or in The Charles Manson Family.
Maybe one day in the future
George Christie and me can have an incredibly interesting dialogue concerning a "Person" connection we both have, + a whole lot More.....That will be quite a conversation, because,
George Christie has mentioned this
"Persons" name in a blog of his.
Mario George Nitrini 111
------
The OJ Simpson Case
By the time I get to SAG's comments on Matt's blog they are always deleted. Now I know why. SAG behave yourself, I don't like racism or homophobia, or you're gonna get in trouble on this blog as well.
Where was i racist or homophobic? Stop acting like a professional victim
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
Grim your idea of being knowledgeable about the case is falling back on the accepted narrative every single time, no original thinking, no ability to form opinions but i wouldnt expect anything else from a "lorry" driver and by the way Mario is batshit nuts and you thinking hes not tells me all i need to know about you
I rest my case.
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
Where was i racist or homophobic?
"And again Captain Mixed Breed..."
"not to mention the BIG no no of being involved in a crime against nature in my opinion of a White man being involved with an "african american", no wonder The Soul was angry"
"Again with the coulda, shoulda, wouldas from the famous mulatto TLB researcher Grim Traveller"
"Lol fuck off nigger"
and Matt explained, when I said I thought SAG/Dave1971 shouldn't have had stuff deleted "Point taken, grim and I considered it. I came to the conclusion that it was better to just wash our hands of him. The 'twink' comment tipped the scales."
Honestly Dave/SAG, you show such an embarrassing lack of self awareness to even ask such a question when across 2 sites a number of people have repeatedly commented on it. Even on this site Katie told you to tone down the racial stuff to which you replied "no thanks, I'll carry it on" or words to that effect.
Slow day delivering pizzas?
Susanatkinsgonorhhea said...
Grim your idea of being knowledgeable about the case is falling back on the accepted narrative every single time, no original thinking, no ability to form opinions
That's funny. Not so long ago, Katie asked me if I was a Charlie supporter because of my comments and the inimitable Mr Poirot accused me of being a Mansonian moral relativist.
Far from being offended, I was chuffed that I couldn't be easily pigeonholed because I can see things from a range of perspectives.
Interestingly, you have nothing with which to even slightly dent the official narrative other than half cocked opinions based on what you want to be true with a little flowering round the edges.
but i wouldnt expect anything else from a "lorry" driver
Actually, I didn't drive a lorry. It was a Ford transit, long wheel base. But since August 11th I ceased to be driving for a living. For the previous 2 years I'd been combining that with the job of a teaching assistant. I did the course and qualified and that's what I do exclusively now. So you'll have to find some other original barbs to entertain us all with. I take it in good cheer because TAs need to be put on the international map !
Every argument you have you pull straight from either Helter Skelter or The Family
Well, that alone demonstrates how much you actually read, both in terms of those two books and the stuff I write !
I've never hidden the fact that I think HS is a great book, a fantastic read that gets better with time and with the pulling apart it's had from some great thinking from various contributors on 4 or 5 sites over a 13 year period. It is flawed but overall it's a great book. As are a number of others, including hugely anti HS tomes like "Goodbye Helter Skelter," "Death to pigs," "Crucified ~ the railroading of Charles Manson," {well, that one isn't great but it's close to great} and "The Myth and Reality of an Outlaw Shaman."
As for "The Family" I consider that a pretty weak book. If it wasn't for Frank M and the respect I have for his insights and opinions, I would be tempted to disregard that book altogether. Even though it generally supports many of my conclusions.
As for pulling ideas from them, in which book have you come across someone try to explain why the killing stopped after 2 nights ? Or why the LaBiancas were chosen ? Or why Charlie didn't carry on pontificating about HS once in jail ? Or how each of the 5 TLB killers, once free from Charlie's influence told outsiders that he directed the murders and all in 1969 ? Or why Manson insisted on a joint defence and tried to get each of the accused killers to dump their "Charlie ordered these killings" stories ?
In point of fact, when I recently read Simon's book that came out this summer {an excellent read, by the way}, "In a summer swelter," I noted some of my ideas in there, ideas I've been publicly airing since 2015.
Let me ask you HONESTLY, do you think Mario is sane?
I just noticed all these comments of late. Susan, if you don't like what Mario says, just ignore him. You certainly don't have to call him names.
Same thing with Grim. If you don't like his opinions or ideas on this case then discuss why without making fun of what he does for a living or what race he is. Those 2 things have nothing to do with this case!!
Play nice now! I'll be watching...
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