Well, there's no proof of either theory.
When we talk about "getting money" we're talking about Manson being desperate to leave the LA area and go to the desert. Why does it cost $5000 to go to the desert? I don't know. I would think that was cheap, but maybe he's thinking about overhead.
Evidently, to manufacture bad dope, you don't need any fancy equipment, just some pots and pans, a roll of string, some Bandaids, some fingernail polish, a mouse trap, some pretzels, a burned out "D" battery, a couple of bobby pins, 2 teaspoons of Anacanapanasan and some scotch tape. I would throw in the Kitchen Sink, but it was shot by a stray bullet.
Wow, it's that easy to make drugs? Then why do the crack heads steal things to buy it? Why not just make it? Or why didn't the motorcycle gang just make their own and save $1,000.00? I don't know.
Oh well, let's debate...
22 comments:
Wow, The comments on the previous post are interesting.
On this subject I will say that regardless of motive I can believe Bobby is truthful when he says he killed Gary so that he couldn't go to the police.
Now who was he really afraid of ? The police ? or Manson ? I suspect he was more in fear what Charlie would do to him for getting the police involved.
How's that for some thought provoking dialog ?
Bobby I agree. I think that's why Bobby killed Gary. And I agree, he was afraid of getting the police involved because of Manson, who was always blaming everyone else for sending him back to prison, even though he's the one who was in charge of stealing cars, credit cards, etc.
There's a new theory that Danny DeCarlo drove Bobby & girls to Gary's house, therefore the drug angle must be true. I don't know how that works. Who cares how they got there? What if they had taken a cab? What if they hitchhiked? What difference does it make how they got there?
The stories I've read at what they put Hinman through painted the impression of people who were very desperate for money. I can see that as consistent with fear of having to produce something NOW to an upset biker gang.
I think Gary was ultimately killed cuz he had been assaulted and badly injured and most probably would have gone to police. Why he was assaulted is still open for me.
Several sources say Gary, at one time at least, had dealt drugs, how much and how hard of drugs, I'm not sure. One of the young men that found Gary's body later got popped for dealing, Michael Erwin.
http://www.leagle.com/decision/19771074550F2d524_1993.xml/UNITED%20STATES%20v.%20PERRY
File that where you will.
The reason the Danny info could be important is that it could lend some credence to it being biker and/or drug connected.
Storm, the 3 days speaks to me too, but I'm going deaf and can't hear exactly what it's saying exactly! lol
File that where you will.
For the money aspect, in re-reading some notes I just found, DeCarlo tesitifies to the Fam trying to get Hinman to sign over the deed to his house. Katie, maybe that does mean Gary owned his house??
Also Gary had come back a month previous from home where he got some money from his dad for his trip to Japan, so maybe that's where that story of Gary getting an inheritance might have originated-the Telephone game and all it's 6 degrees of misinformation. Hinman did come from a relatively upper middle class family, owning a successful family construction business.
File that where you will.
Gary had recently given up many of his possessions to what appears to my investigations of it, a kind of culty Buddhist group. That sticks in my mind with the theory thrown out by one of the girls I think, that Charlie wanted Gary to come join them and give up all his stuff. I put that in the category of coulda, woulda, shoulda Monday-morning quarterbacking on the girls Telephone chat line.
Katie, the crackheads are now stealing the things they need to MAKE drugs, so at least they're exhibiting some work ethic now!!
Katie, you are the literary MacGyver of TLB! :)
Hi Stormy! Thanks Maude!
I agree, I think Gary was killed because Bobby was afraid he'd go to the cops. But if Gary was a serious drug dealer, I don't think he'd want the cops anywhere near his pad, so I can't understand why Bobby would think that unless Gary wasn't a serious drug dealer. I also think killing Gary was Bobby's own idea, not Manson's.
Yeah I'm not gonna say that Gary never sold or gave dope to anyone in his whole life, but I have read that he was trying to clean up on the drug scene activities because of his new-found love for his new religion. I think it's very possible that Manson heard that Gary's Dad gave him money for his trip to Japan, and it got twisted into "Gary inherited money because his Dad died". If Manson was thinking that Gary inherited his Dad's money, he might have had some real big stars in his eyes, because like you said, his Dad had some money.
I've read that Gary pretty much spent all the money his Dad gave him on his trip to Japan expenses, and I really think that if he had any left over, he probably would have given it to Bobby, because I think he was that kind of guy.
I think they probably held him for 3 days because they were convinced he had money hidden somewhere and he would eventually tell them where it was if they kept after him. But after Bobby stabbed him, the game was pretty much up.
Another thing that bothers me about the "bad dope theory" is Bobby taking that Fiat to head north to SF. If he wanted to give the SS money, why not just give them the car? Isn't that supposedly why he took the cars, accordingly to that theory?
Maude maybe Gary did own that house. Back then it was pretty small, and from the pictures I've seen, pretty plain, so maybe it didn't cost that much. Plus, Gary was possibly making some pretty good dough teaching musical instruments at that music store.
Next slide please, next slide.
Bobby said...
regardless of motive I can believe Bobby is truthful when he says he killed Gary so that he couldn't go to the police
I agree with that. Whichever motive one goes with, Bobby was left in a position where he felt he could not let Gary go to firstly the hospital, then, by extension, the police.
If, as Bobby states, he collected the mescaline on Friday night, and he was back at Gary's on the Saturday after a Satan beating, I'm curious as to how no trace of that $1000 has ever been located. The police actually had a pretty detailed run down of Gary Hinman's financial movements during July '69. They know he paid $550 for his ticket to Japan, they know he was being paid in bits {$200 thus far} for his VW by his boss, they know his Dad gave him over $1000 towards his ticket.
What did he do with that money {I'm informed it's over $6000 in today's money} in less than 24 hours ?
katie8753 said...
Wow, it's that easy to make drugs? Then why do the crack heads steal things to buy it? Why not just make it?
Because you have to know what you're doing. Anything becomes easy once you know how. Also, crackheads in general aren't interested in manufacture, just getting the high. I like the taste of fresh pineapple juice. I'm not interested in cutting up a few pineapples and squeezing them and removing the pulp. Much easier to buy the cartons from the supermarket.
I know Grim, but if it's so easy to manufacture drugs, as they say, and you need so little paraphernalia that the cops won't even know you're making it, it seems a lot safer to make it yourself with very little effort. You just need a little "this and that". LOL.
Here's the secret recipe:
First you put in a pint of ek-tow-who-sis. Oh, no no, ek-tow-what-sis. And 4 grams of al-ka-bob. Then you pour in the shish-ka-bob. Then you fold in a jigger of sask-gra-phonia. Did I give you carbolic acid? I’d love to. Finally add a dash of a-squin-a-hara-tan.
And there you have it! No muss, no fuss! Just spray a little Glade and you're done! HA HA.
Wow Katie, I never knew the Stooges had a drug lab...
Dill, LOL. That's their recipe for rocket fuel.
They also know how to make beer, scotch whiskey and the recipe for the fountain of youth.
katie8753 said...
if it's so easy to manufacture drugs, as they say, and you need so little paraphernalia that the cops won't even know you're making it, it seems a lot safer to make it yourself with very little effort
But that's the point, they're not easy to manufacture unless you know what you're doing. Anyone can make bread. How many do it in comparison to buying it ? And does all home made bread taste as good as what you'd buy in the shops ?
It's not hard to maintain and repair one's car. All you need is the manual. But how many people do it ?
In fact, you could take the argument a whole lot further. Look at the number of people that always eat out or purchase ready made meals. It's arguably a lot easier to just learn to cook or cook for oneself. But the point is that if something exists already made, people will go for it. Why go through the whole rigmarole of acquiring peyote, separating the "wheat from the chaff" as it were, and developing the stuff so that it becomes a batch of mescaline that can give you a sizzling 14 psychedelic trip ? Of course, there would be some that would do that but most trippers want to score some dope and roam the universe. Making the stuff isn't part of the fun !
The principle of the 'service industry' existed centuries before Western people were manufacturing drugs but as certain drugs became more popular, the service principle extended to drugs.
The point is we want our thrills quickly. There's nothing to be gained in waiting until tomorrow when you wanted to be high yesterday. Who wants to sit down and learn how to be a chemist when all you want to do is fly ?
Incidentally, mescaline wasn't even illegal in 1969 in the US of A. It didn't become illegal until 1970.
Katie that is funny you've learned Manson gibberish.
Grim, if mescaline wasn't illegal in 1969, then why didn't Bobby just call the cops if Gary made a "bad dose"? Wouldn't you do that with any legal commodity?
And why didn't Gary just have a big laboratory like Grandpa Munster, turning out that stuff in gallon jugs? That would have paid to go to Japan and way beyond.
That is, IF Gary was selling it. Of which, of course, there is no proof.
Thanks Beauders, but Manson doesn't get the credit on that one. The credit goes to Moe, Larry & Curly. LOL.
Cocaine powder baking soda hot water there ya go now get crackin
William, I think you've got it!! LOL.
katie8753 said...
if mescaline wasn't illegal in 1969, then why didn't Bobby just call the cops if Gary made a "bad dose"?
Bad boy Bobby don't call no cops ! Not after a Straight Satans beating.
Wouldn't you do that with any legal commodity?
I don't know. Would you ? I wouldn't call the cops if I bought some home made wine off someone and I got sick because of it. Over here, you'd be done for wasting police time.
And why didn't Gary just have a big laboratory like Grandpa Munster, turning out that stuff in gallon jugs?
Maybe the stuff wasn't actually made at his house or if it was, if he's anything like me, maybe he cleaned up. I remember when I used to develop my own photographs. I would do 8 to 10 hour sessions in my makeshift dark room {the bathroom} and while the photos were rinsing, I would clear and clean up, getting rid of all the chemicals, washing the utensils. I'd usually do developing during the night so I'd be done around 6am and it would take an hour to clean up and the last thing I'd do would be hang the photos up to dry. I couldn't bear the thought of going to sleep for 12 hours, only to have to get up and face all that clearing up so despite being really tired and on the edge of consciousness, I'd do it forthwith.
That would have paid to go to Japan and way beyond
In Ed Sanders book "The Family," Ed states that Gary used to manufacture mescaline and he had a couple that used to assist him. He actually names the guy that was one half of the couple. So perhaps profits went three ways. Maybe mescaline wasn't cost effective.
regardless of motive I can believe Bobby is truthful when he says he killed Gary so that he couldn't go to the police
And I can envision Bobby talking to CM on the phone and being told. Don't you dare let Gary go. Do you know what happens to me if the cops get into this ? I go right back to prison ! Is that what you want to happen ? Do you want me back in prison ? what happens to all of you if I get sent back ? You know what to do.
Incidentally, mescaline wasn't even illegal in 1969 in the US of A. It didn't become illegal until 1970
Scratch that, I got that wrong. It was federally banned in 1970 but had been illegal in California since the late 50s although not to the Native American church, interestingly.
One should never be too big to admit one's mistakes.
It doesn't change anything else I've said about the Hinman crime though, because mescaline's legality was always a minor makeweight as opposed to a vital piece upon which my thesis depended.
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