After a little searching online, I found some excerpts that pertain directly to the TLB murders. Maury Terry asserts that (in 1967) Charles Manson, Abigail Folger and Shorty Shea(!) had dinner together at a seafood restaurant in California.
IF this is true, it would put a new spin on later events. However, when dealing with such assertions, we must question the credibility of sources. All Terry's book offers, is that his source "knew both Folger and Manson". Pretty vague huh?
Looking for answers, I tried contacting Maury Terry himself. After pursuing a few avenues, I realized it would be easier to find Brooks Posten or Santa Claus. Next, I contacted the author of another Manson book (who reseached this incident for his own book). I asked him for his gut reaction. to Terry's research.
His response: "I don't know if Terry had it ALL right, but I think he was certainly right on to SOME things...."
Someone on this blog asserted that Sandra Good was the source for this story.... was it Beauders? Whoever it was, I'd be interested in hearing how you came to that conclusion. Anyway... here are the excerpts... you guys can share your own opinions/conclusions.
Excerpt:
Vincent Bugliosi suspected Manson had contact with the Process in San Francisco. But the prosecution didn't pursue that suspicion. Similarly, the district attorney's office said it sought but was unable to find a link between Manson and a Cielo Drive victim, which would have significantly altered the perception of the case. But we learned that Charlie and Abigail Folger were friends for a time in San Francisco and that Manson hooked up with the Process there as well.
The Folger information comes from a reliable informant who knew both Folger and Manson. The source said he had dinner one night in September 1967 with Manson, Folger and two other individuals at a small seafood restaurant near Golden Gate Park, not far from the Haight. One of the others at the table was an aspiring actor and stuntman named Donald (Shorty) Shea. He later headed south to Los Angeles and found work at the Spahn movie ranch. Shorty Shea was murdered by the Family in the fallout from the Tate-La Bianca slayings, allegedly because he knew too much.
He indeed did. Unknown by the police and prosecution, Shea had known Manson and Folger in San Francisco two years before the murders and actually went down to L.A. in Manson's company, according to the source. This revelation also seriously impacts the case. Two people seated in that seafood restaurant that night in 1967 were later murdered on the instructions of a third.
Ed Sanders had heard that Manson attended a fund-raising event in San Francisco that was chaired by Abigail Folger's mother. He also knew that in 1967 Manson met disciple Mary Brunner at the University of California, Berkeley, where Brunner worked in the library and Folger at the university's art museum. And he had received information that Manson met Folger at Mama Cass's home. But Sanders wasn't able to flesh out the Folger connection. We were.
"Gibby had more money than she knew what to do with," the source states. "She was into finding herself and new directions, and she was always investing in things, including a surfboard shop in Encinitas [near San Diego]. And not long before the murders, about six weeks, she got involved in putting up some cash for a small recording studio. It's possible that Terry Melcher, who knew Manson well, had a link into that studio." This was another twist; Melcher wasn't believed to have been associated with Folger, but the source says he might have been.
"That night in San Francisco, she loaned ten grand to a small theater," the informant continues. "And she had also given money to Charlie from time to time." But then she stopped. "Manson turned against her when she refused to lay out any more bucks for him, and also because she wouldn't come across for him sexually. Charlie wanted to make it with her, but she shot him down." So Charles Manson, who would soon orchestrate orgies and command sex at will from his young followers, was spurned by Abigail Folger. Add another item to Charlie's own list of reasons for willingness to oversee butchery on Cielo Drive. "It made sense that Shea was killed after that," the contact says. "He knew both of them, and he could tie things together that nobody wanted tied."
And what about the relationship between Manson and the doomed Shorty Shea? "They knew each other well enough in San Francisco to travel up to Seattle together to visit a commune started there by Brother Love Israel," said the informant, who dined with them. "They were tight long before the Spahn ranch and the murders." Authorities had placed Manson in Seattle, but they apparently didn't know why he was there—or whom he was with.
The full page of excerpts can be found here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63643995/Abigail-Folger-Manson-II-Connections-Ultimate-Evil-excerpts
13 comments:
Matt thanks for all your work in providing this for us.
Ed Sanders had heard that Manson attended a fund-raising event in San Francisco that was chaired by Abigail Folger's mother.
Manson at a fund raiser? Was it white tie and tails? He was probably picking pockets. LOL.
So now we have the motive for the Cielo drive murders to be the fact that Gibby wouldn't put out for Manson?
Hmmmm......
If it had been Charlie and three girls that night at Cielo and Charlie recognized Gibby there would have been no murders.
Thanks, Matt.
MrPoirot, or maybe the fact that Charlie knew Gibby was there was one of the reasons for the murders. It seemed like everything that he hated or made him angry was represented at Cielo - famous, rich, beautiful people who spurned him.
Thanks Bobby.
Theres no proof for any of the stuff in this post but its interesting to think about regardless.
I'm not sure Terry was saying that Manson knowing Abigail Folger was a direct line to the murders i'd have to read through the book again but I wouldn't be shocked if they did know each other on some level.
The thing that surprised me was Shorty Shea being involved...the first time I read that I was taken aback.
You know if someone was going to make up a story about all this You'd think They'd have said that Watson or Davis was there but Shorty Shea?
That was out of left Field to say the least.
The only reason i give this any creedence was because I thought He did such a good job with the original thesis of the Book(Berkowitz not acting alone)that I couldn't see Him screwing that up with a bunch of crazy TLB theories that He made up just to have something sensational to write about for the update.
But stranger things have happened so who knows.
The wiki on the Seattle "Love Family" is interesting. Perhaps an influence on Charlie. A template for his Family, with their affirmations, cult-like communal living and so on.
Maybe one of their original members can recall the 5 foot 2 Manson arriving with the 6 foot 5 Shorty Shea? ...Sounds like it'd be memorable - the convict-christ imp and the lanky movie cowpoke together.
Good luck on finding Maury Matt! I remember reading once that the reason Terry is in hiding is because certain things in his book hit very close to the truth and he fears for his life.
Ed Sanders says many things that are laughable in his book "The Family" but if you consider that Sanders had his book released in 1971 it is still quite an accomplishment.
If any of the info by Terry came from Sandra Good just consider that Sandra told many deliberate lies(about Linda Kasabian for example)that were designed to destroy the nature of the States case. It is very likely that Sandra would lie strategic intent.
I don't think there is any proven evidence that Manson knew of Spahns ranch in 67 or that he knew Shorty in 67 much less having met Shorty in SF. The hippies came to Spahns and met Shorty there. Shorty did not go to the hippies. Shorty's range was LA and Las Vegas and his circle of friends were cowboys and strippers. Shorty is the easiest to remove from that seafood resturant that night. He was in his marriage with Magdalene in 67.
Placing Gibby, Charlie and Shorty together ANYWHERE is a tough sell.
If Shorty had ever met Gibby prior for dinner he would have heard her name the day she was murdered and guessed Charlie was behind it.
[quote]One of the others at the table was an aspiring actor and stuntman named Donald (Shorty) Shea. He later headed south to Los Angeles and found work at the Spahn movie ranch[end quote]
Poirot says:
Here is a Terry quote that is just plain made up and reveals Maury Terry has huge gaps in his case knowledge. Shorty had been employed at Spahn Ranch for years prior to 1967. Spahn Ranch was his home base at the time Terry claims Shorty dined in SF in 67.
[quote]The source's statement—which was supported by that of another California informant who said Shea also knew Bill Mentzer's associatesdestroys Helter Skelter as the only motive for the slayings and clearly demonstrates there were other factors involved. The New York informants had hit the target again[end quote]
Poirot says:
This reveals an incorrect agenda. Terry reveals he thinks Helter Skelter was Bugliosi' only motive. Read the opening statemnt by Bugliosi over at Cielo .com and in Bugliosi's book Helter Skelter. There were multiple motives clearly stated by Bugliosi.
I honestly don't think Abigail had dinner with Manson or Shea. I also don't believe that Manson attended one of Inez' fund raisers either. In everything I've read about Charlie, I've never seen where he was interested in raising funds for anyone but himself.
Just because Folger & Brunner worked at Berkeley doesn't mean they ever even ran into each other. It's a big campus.
I can't imagine Folger spending five minutes with someone like Charlie. She was refined and educated. He couldn't count to 12 without taking his shoes off.
Sorry just don't see that one happening.
I agree with Mr. P. Shorty was already at Spahn's Ranch when the family horned in because they were kicked out of every other place in town.
I don't think that Shorty (nicknamed "Shorty" because he was tall) was ever a friend with Manson. I think he disliked him from the minute he and his brood moved into the Ranch. He knew that Charlie conned ole George and didn't trust him at all.
And Manson knew that. I think Shorty talked to others about the murders and Squeaky blabbed to Charlie (talk about not "squealing").
Manson was afraid that Shorty knew too much about the murders. Not because Shorty knew Folger, but because he heard the bragging by Clem and others around the Ranch.
Oh BTW.
"Meanwhile, back at the ranch"....Charlie didn't allow his minions to wear glasses or have watches.
Well it seems that ole Chuckie is sportin' a pair of reading glasses, and the others have acquiesced as well.
Do you suppose ole Chuckie is now wearing a timepiece?
"Hey...what time is that parole hearin'?
HA HA.
plenty of members and ex-members, and now grown children of the Love commune in Washington State ( I know em) and they have or had NOTHING to do with manson
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