Another E-Book... this one by Michael White.
Again, the theme is "Charlie got screwed".
"This book spotlights the
inequities of the Tate-LaBianca trial starring Charles Manson and
Vincent Bugliosi. The conviction of Charles Manson was laden with lies,
contradictions and manipulation of facts. Why was it so important to
"railroad" Charles Manson? The answer is within these covers".
"Manson got screwed"... "free Manson"...
ReplyDeleteKatie's been saying this stuff for years. LOL!
: )
Actually...
ReplyDeleteI heard this book is supposed to be pretty good.
Some guy (the author I'm assuming) bought (or rented) one of those large storage spaces... and inside (the storage space)... much to his surprise... he found all of Irving Kanarek's personal notes from the trial.
Evidently, the book was spawned from Kanarek's notes, and many of Kanarek's writings are contained within it's pages.
I've never read the book... but, that's what I'm told.
Assuming the Kanarek connection is factual... this book should carry a certain degree of legitimacy and intrigue for most TLB enthusiasts.
I tried reading this one a while back. The biggest problem is the tone.
ReplyDeleteThe "author" assumes that all readers totally believe Bug's Helter Skelter theory as the prime and only motive, and writes condescendingly to us readers - morons that we are.
Is it real, or another in the "Hitler Diaries" style fake-out genre? I don't know.
The guy's such a windbag and comes off a real jerk that you just end up skipping to the Kanarek/Manson correspondence, which is interesting here and there. Notwithstanding that these documents are suspicious at best as to whether they really exist, or are fakes.
The introduction itself is condescending. I am however, still going to try to read it.
ReplyDeletehope it works for everyone.
ReplyDeleteThe impulse and effort to transform Charlie from the Face of Evil to some sort of Ultimate Wronged Martyr is always interesting. And even more irritating. I suppose people will still be singing the idiot tune "he didn't kill anyone" a hundred years from now.
ReplyDeleteNo, Charlie will never be "spun" into a romantic folk hero version like Jesse James and Dillinger or Bonnie and Clyde. There is just to much of Charlie over on youtube touting his own "badness".
Bottom line, regardless of what specific instructions Charlie gave Tex, it is irrefutable that Manson was almost solely responsible for creating the militant mindset amongst the Family that ultimately lead to TLB.
I've said it before and I will say it a hundred times again - for me one of the keys to understanding TLB is the comment the sweet Ouish said to Danny DeCarlo out at Barker...
"I can't wait to off my first pig."
For me that is slam dunk proof at how pervasive the "kill pigs" mindset had become in the Family. And yes, Charlie put it there.
Thanks Matt! I'm on page 132. The first part is, as Cease & Doc said, conspiratorial condescending nonsense, and the Charlie letters are the usual silliness, but after that it's starting to get pretty good.
ReplyDeleteIt seems this writer is going down that well worn path of "Tex and Linda were in charge". Is he basing this on the fact that Linda made that infamous comment after she screwed Tex the first time about it being some kind of ethereal experience? Maybe he did the counterclockwise swirl at the end. LOL.
Anway, I'll finish this when I get a chance. Like I said, it is interesting reading.
I'm assuming he's only talking about the TLB trial? Because his logic doesn't apply to the trial for Shorty's murder.
Top o' the muffin to ya Katie.....
ReplyDeleteAnd the stumps can go to the homeless.
ReplyDeleteHA HA. Doc you crack me up! :)
Hey Matt, is there any way to make the print bigger on this book? I tried the zoom button but it didn't seem to make any difference. Just wondering...it's kinda hard to read.
ReplyDeleteOops! I Forgot the exclamation point.
ReplyDeleteTop o' the muffin to ya! Katie.....
HA HA HA!
ReplyDeleteThe zoom works fine for me.
ReplyDeletePart of the problem is when you download one of these pdf files and open it with adobe the page is bigger because theres no borders.
When I put it on the Google drive thing to upload to a Blog the border on the left hand side is added and makes the actual pages smaller.
Add to that instead of one page at a time the uploader made it appear like you're looking at an open book-two pages in one frame instead of just one so that makes it smaller as well.
I guess I'm the odd man out...this book opened my mind a bit...to see things from another prospective and from behind the scenes type thing...
ReplyDeleteI do not think it is fiction as far as how the writer acquired the files...I remember reading how kanarek was hospitalized and lost everything, including these files.
"To me" the book didn't read condescending, the writer seemed angry at the prosecution or the "system" in general, and after reading it, I understood what he was getting at...
Maybe I'm just gullible...I liked it...
Thanks for finding and posting it...
leary7 said...
ReplyDeleteThe impulse and effort to transform Charlie from the Face of Evil to some sort of Ultimate Wronged Martyr is always interesting. And even more irritating. I suppose people will still be singing the idiot tune "he didn't kill anyone" a hundred years from now.
No, Charlie will never be "spun" into a romantic folk hero version like Jesse James and Dillinger or Bonnie and Clyde. There is just to much of Charlie over on youtube touting his own "badness".
Bottom line, regardless of what specific instructions Charlie gave Tex, it is irrefutable that Manson was almost solely responsible for creating the militant mindset amongst the Family that ultimately lead to TLB.(end quote)
Poirot replies:
I agree and this mindset was called Helter Skelter.
I don't agree that Charlie hasn't been spun into a modern day Bonnie and Clyde. (picture Charlie and Lynn in a dune buggy instead of a 1932 V8 Ford)
Look at Marilyn Manson or Star. Look at how the ecology movement has become a carbon copy of ATWA. Look at who is in the white house that can't handle the reigns of power.
ditto...We're in Helter Skelter
ReplyDeleteThanks Matt! I'll just get thru it. LOL.
ReplyDeleteHi Kimchi. I agree it's interesting reading. Like I said, I'm not thru reading it. I hope to finish it tomorrow because it is interesting.
It seems to me that the writer is really incensed that Bugliosi "reworded" everything to point to Charlie's guilt. But in my prospective, the writer is doing the same thing...rewording everything to make Bugliosi look guilty.
Question: If Bugliosi had failed to convict Charlie, and Charlie had gone free, would the killings have continued with different family members being the perps? He certainly had all the fire power.
If he had beaten the rap, then he would have appeared even more magical to his "followers".
The writer says that Charlie wasn't magic or supernatural, yet his followers believed that he breathed on a dead bird and brought it back to life.
The writer says that Charlie just took in a bunch of strays and wanted to "help" them. How is it "helping them" to take a herd of underaged, rebellious, low self esteemed girls and encouraging them to have sex with him and every other man in the group?
As Leary pointed out, there was a lot of "pig killing" talk going around back then. These people were hostile towards society and evidently Charles Manson threw gas on that hostility with his "teachings".
That's all for now. LOL.
Katie, I see what you're saying, but the thing with "bringing a dead bird back to life" was concocted by kids on dope...LSD or whatever...
ReplyDeletePersonally, I do not believe the helter skelter motive, but it worked at the time, I doubt it would work now...and I live in the "now" ...lol
I feel sorry for the victims and their families, but the person that physically murdered these people was Charles Watson...and at the time and even now, this seems to be disregarded...
Kimchi I totally agree with you. I don't believe in the Helter Skelter motive. I think Bugliosi just used it as a means to an end. I don't think he believed it either. The reason he named his book that was just to get attention to the book.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes he made money off of it. If I had put Charlie in prison I would have done the same thing. No avarice spared. LOL. A DA doesn't make a whole lot of money, not the same as a Plaintiff Lawyer, so every bit helps...right? I personally don't discount Bugliosi for trying to cash in on a case in which he worked 20 hours a day for months.
Whew.....
Shoving that aside, I know the kids that were high on drugs believed that Charlie brought a dead bird back to life. But you have to admit...wasn't it Charlie who was giving them the drugs for the most part?
Oh yeah, Tex & Sadie had a stash of speed, but the others say that Charlie decided who partook. In fact, Pat said in her interview with Diane Sawyer that Charlie rarely imbibbed...that he just handed out the drugs and they took "100's of trips".
>>>I feel sorry for the victims and their families, but the person that physically murdered these people was Charles Watson...and at the time and even now, this seems to be disregarded...>>>
I agree completely. It was Tex who killed the TLB victims.
BUT...he didn't kill Gary Hinman. In fact he wasn't anywhere around for that murder. But Charlie was.
Let's not argue about semantics. Charlie wasn't at Cielo Drive. We all know that. Charlie WAS at Waverly Drive. We all know that.
But who was in charge??? I think it's obvious.
More later. LOL.
I think a few things are lost with the general public in this case...and frankly I feel it was the medias "fault"...
ReplyDeleteI asked my child who is 36, and educated with a BA, "who killed Sharon Tate and those folks in 1969?" Answer: " Charles Manson"
Listening to a friend that works for LA County Sheriff and has for 30+ years describe the crime, says: "Charles Manson killed Sharon Tate and cut the baby out of her stomach after he killed her".
I mean, come on... In the real world, this is what people believe.....everyone thinks this person Charles Manson is the Boogy Man....
They've never even heard of Charles Watson! Neither of them....
Kimchi, I couldn't agree more.
ReplyDeleteGiven this new case of the CT shootings, the media messed it up big time. They had everything wrong from the first posting. On Friday they had to correct their news reports on almost an hourly basis.
I was thinking that the media did the same thing in the TLB case. They reported a "hood" on Jay's face, and that it was some kind of drug related murder or maybe a satanic cult thing.
I remember back in 1969 when this first came on the news, and they kept showing clips from Sharon's first real movie "Eye of the Devil" and they wanted us all to believe she was a devil worshipper.
The media SUCKS.
But I truly believe that anyone who has followed this case knows that Charlie didn't stab anyone in the TLB case, he didn't try to cut a baby out, and he didn't threaten other celebs. That was all Susan's made-up crap.
And the reason they don't play up Tex Watson is because he dummied up.
When Manson went to trial, instead of sitting still in his seat and acting normal, he shaved his head, carved an "X" in his forehead, lunged at the judge and made threats.
Please!!
Tex didn't do any of that. That's why the public thought Tex was Charlie's robot.
If Charlie was so innocent, why didn't he just keep his trap shut?
He had to go on and on and on about his pontifical rantings and KNOWING that the media was going to pick up on it. Charlie is his own judge, jury, and executioner.
Kimchi, I love ya Babe. I'm not arguing with you, just debating. LOL.
ReplyDeleteLike I said, it's an interesting read.
I find it interesting about Rosemary's billfold in the toilet tank. I'm thinking to myself "if you put a billfold in a toilet tank for 4 months, wouldn't it pretty much disintegrate?"
That's interesting.
Anyway, like I said, I'm going to read the rest of this and then comment on my findings.
Peace!! :)
Yes, but at this point I don't think he gave a shit..he knew he was dead meat when he told Susan "you just put me back in prison" minus the nasty words...lol
ReplyDeleteI doubt he cared at that point and just took everyone down with him...I might have done the same, not sure...how about you? What would you have done?
Rosemary's wallet never got wet. Linda sat it on top of the valve mechanism. That's the only reason they found the wallet. It jammed the mechanism one day.
ReplyDeleteIf Rosemary was worth a couple of million then why were there greenbax stamps in her wallet?
Im on dial up, plus bad weather here so I'm slow in responding Katie...
ReplyDeleteI don't defend Charles Manson, he's a bad guy, a criminal, butt I do think he got a bumb rap....he is where he belongs, in my opinion...
But he isn't a miracle worker or "shaman" as they say, he's a convict for christ sake...
Kimchi said...
ReplyDeleteIm on dial up, plus bad weather here so I'm slow in responding Katie...
I don't defend Charles Manson, he's a bad guy, a criminal, butt I do think he got a bumb rap....he is where he belongs, in my opinion...
But he isn't a miracle worker or "shaman" as they say, he's a convict for christ sake...
-----------------------------------
I agree. I think Bugliosi did what most prosecutors do. Key in on a point and blow it out of proportion just to win. They seem to believe that they shouldn't let the facts get in the way of a win for them.
I also believe Chucky is right where he belongs.
My focus will always be on Charles Watson....that thing should have faced a firing squad long ago, instead, he sired 4 children...
ReplyDeleteIt's wrong, just plain wrong....
When Charlie preached peace the Family was peaceful. When he preached Helter Skelter the Family murdered. Every witness to a man or woman tells of Charlie preaching of the coming race war.
ReplyDeleteLynyrd had a very good thread fairly recently with Jenny where she also said Helter Skelter was the theme when she was with the Family. It is the modern day bloggers saying Helter Skelter was not the motive. All the witnesses say that is precisely what Charlie preached.
MrPoirot said...
ReplyDeleteWhen Charlie preached peace the Family was peaceful. When he preached Helter Skelter the Family murdered. Every witness to a man or woman tells of Charlie preaching of the coming race war.
Lynyrd had a very good thread fairly recently with Jenny where she also said Helter Skelter was the theme when she was with the Family. It is the modern day bloggers saying Helter Skelter was not the motive. All the witnesses say that is precisely what Charlie preached.
-----------------------------------
Chucky may have preached helter skelter and had his minions believing in it but I don't think it was the true motive for the murders. I think he used helter skelter to keep his people paranoid and in control. If the murders were hits then helter skelter gave him some true believers to do his dirty work. I personally don't think Charlie really believed in chocolate fountains and underground paradise.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI deleted my comment. I'm going to bed. Rest in peace. Or in pieces. HA HA. Just kidding.
ReplyDeleteG'night Jugdish!
Doc you're one of the last Mohicans.
ReplyDeleteStay the Course. Night Love! :)
Katie, I finally listened to your interview on TLB Radio. Great interview. I love your Texas twang.
ReplyDeleteNight Mulva.
Katie, in your interview, you discussed
ReplyDeleteGarretson's stories. I also read on another blog that Steven Parent was gay (though there's really nothing wrong with that) and maybe he was at the guest house for a tryst with Garretson. Have you heard anything about that. I don't know if true or not it has any bearing on the case but who knows? If true and Garettson was embarrassed it could be a reason why he hasn't seemed to tell the same story twice.
there is a blog that shows Garretson was most likely not friendly with PK. It seems from the things shown that he mistook her for another and that his mistake got cemented down.
ReplyDeletehttp://cabocki.tumblr.com/
it's a little ways down the page. Who knows if it's true, but it seems more concrete than specualtion.
I agree with Kimchi, the powers that be took a petty criminal and turned him into the boogeyman to prey on fear. They prey on fear to make money.
DA's make enough money, they shouldn't have to slander and lie to gain more, what a sad immoral world. Aren't these people supposed to protect the public, not scare the fuck out them for a dollar.
And if Manson was going to keep killing if let off, why didn't he keep killing while he was still out? Supposedly he orchestrates horrific murders to spark who knows what and then just stops. Not only that, at the point when he's most pissed and seemingly hating society the most, he sends no one out to kill. He gets slammed in court and seems super pissed off and doesn't send out "minions". He sits in prison, and sends no one out to kill. He's locked up with willing murderers, some of whom get released. He doesn't "brainwash" these people and send them out and that would seem to be much easier than taking middle class kids and distorting them. The whole thing has massive holes. It's basically witch craft in the 21st century.
Believe what you will. My money is on some form of lameness involving not so bright, drug addled children. Manson is guilty of conspiracy and for not going to the cops when he knew, but then, who expects someone raised in jail to snitch.
Charlie belongs in jail, but justice should come with truth, not money making/political scenarios.
Doc I think that bit about Parent having a gay romp with Garretson was derived from the fact that Altobelli was supposedly gay and therefore anyone he hires would be gay, which isn't necessarily true.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Parent went there to sell a clock radio. He was making money for college by fixing electronic equipment and reselling it. The clock radio was in his car. That story makes sense to me.
>>>Doc said: Chucky may have preached helter skelter and had his minions believing in it but I don't think it was the true motive for the murders. I think he used helter skelter to keep his people paranoid and in control. If the murders were hits then helter skelter gave him some true believers to do his dirty work. I personally don't think Charlie really believed in chocolate fountains and underground paradise.>>>
ReplyDeleteI agree completely. I think Charlie was using that as a tool to control them. Charlie talks about a lot of things that don't make any sense. But it doesn't mean he believes any of it.
In looking at his behavior during the trials and in turn the way everyone was aping his words and actions, it's very evident that Charlie had complete control over these people. It just can't get any simpler than that.
>>>Josh said: I agree with Kimchi, the powers that be took a petty criminal and turned him into the boogeyman to prey on fear. They prey on fear to make money.>>>
ReplyDeleteIf Charlie was so innocent, why didn't he act innocent? His behavior during the trial is what turned him into "the boogeyman".
Bugliosi didn't make him shave his head. Bugliosi didn't make him carve his forehead. Bugliosi didn't make him try to jump on the judge. Bugliosi didn't tell the girls to shave their heads, cut their foreheads, crawl to the courthouse and make threats.
And what's wrong with making money?
katie8753 said...
ReplyDeleteBugliosi didn't make him shave his head. Bugliosi didn't make him carve his forehead. Bugliosi didn't make him try to jump on the judge. Bugliosi didn't tell the girls to shave their heads, cut their foreheads, crawl to the courthouse and make threats.
-------------------------------------
The girls parroting Chucky and following suit after he shaved his head and x'd himself out of this society only cemented the fact that as Bugliosi was able to prove, he did have complete control over these people. I think he's right where he belongs.....
Perhaps Charlie did oversell his apocalyptic race war just a wee bit. But not that much since LA has always been a been a racially charged hot spot but apocalyptic cults always reach a point of crash and burn. If you preach the end you get the end. That;s the trouble with brainwashed minions: they do exactly what you tell them. Thats Helter Skelter.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember who said this (sorry.....too tired to look back through the posts), but regarding Rosemary having those "greenbax" stamps in her purse. If they're the stamps I'm thinking of, it had nothing to do with your income. You used to get them automatically with your change (I think) and you'd save them, paste them into a book and you could cash in the books at the stores for things such as irons. For example, maybe 5 books would earn you an iron. I remember relatives doing this all the time.
ReplyDeleteWe sure do seem to go round and round the mullberry bush basically agreeing that Helter Skelter was crap (as pure or lone motive), that Charlie is where he belongs, that Tex is the real scumbag, that Bugliosi did what he had to do and so on.
ReplyDeleteIt sure would be nice to get something of substance new in this case...from the Tex tapes or from a Ukiah investigation or something.
Of course the "Charlie never killed anyone" mantra that this book promotes is predicated on him NOT telling Tex to commit murder so essentially where you come down on Manson's guilt all comes down to believing Manson or Tex. A or B. The answer of course is C - you can't believe either.
In a perfect world there would be some way to get Nancy Pitman to talk. She was dancing with Charlie on the porch, wasn't she, when the killers returned. She's gotta have some insight on wether Manson knew they were sent out for murder or not. Sorry, I am lazy, I should look this up but I'll just ask - did Nancy every testify under oath about the happenings of those two nights?
The way Charlie bragged about just "having offed five people the other night" to a stranger like Al Springer, you gotta figure he talked to at least a couple of his close cohorts about sending Tex out and why. Nancy...maybe Lynn.
Ah crap, I am ramblin and fantasizing again. SOrry Lynyrd.
Bugliosi proved three motives beyond a reasonable doubt in the Cielo case.
ReplyDelete1 Melcher rebuffed him
2 copycat for Hinman
3 Helter Skelter
When Buglosi made his opening remarks to the jury he clearly stated that there were multiple motives.
Bugliosi found no evidence of a hit or of drug burn retribution.
>>>Leary said: In a perfect world there would be some way to get Nancy Pitman to talk. She was dancing with Charlie on the porch, wasn't she, when the killers returned.>>>
ReplyDeleteLeary wasn't Manson dancing around naked? Boy, talk about "bad naked". HA HA.
>>>Mr. P said: Bugliosi found no evidence of a hit or of drug burn retribution.>>>
ReplyDeleteBingo! :)