Thursday, October 4, 2012
Parole Granted for Former Manson Family Member Bruce Davis
The BPH issued a grant of parole to Davis in January 2010 because of his positive adjustment, record of no recent disciplinary problems, and for successfully completing academic and vocational education and self-help programs. However, the parole grant was reversed by former Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in June 2010, who concluded Davis was still dangerous because of an evaluator’s diagnosis of a personality disorder, Davis’ conformist tendencies, and his sporadic participation in substance-abuse programs over the years.
Davis challenged Governor Schwarzenegger’s reversal of his parole grant in Los Angeles County Superior Court, which ruled against Schwarzenegger and vacated his decision. In 2012, California’s Second District Court of Appeal upheld the Governor’s reversal of the January 28, 2010, grant, ruling that the Governor’s concerns were justified and supporting his conclusion that Davis was still dangerous.
Davis appeared before the panel today. The suitability finding is subject to a 120-day decision review period. If the grant is finalized at the conclusion of decision review, the Governor may conduct an independent review of the decision. Under California law, the Governor may reverse, modify, affirm or decline to review the Board’s decision.
Davis was sent to state prison on April 21, 1972, with a life sentence from Los Angeles County for two counts of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder and robbery. He was convicted for the July 25, 1969, murder of Gary Hinman and the murder of Donald “Shorty” Shea sometime in August 1969.
The BPH hearing transcript will serve as the official record and is expected to be transcribed in approximately 30 days.
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Davis, imprisoned for 40 years in a double murder engineered by Charles Manson, won a recommendation of parole Thursday in his 27th appearance before a parole board panel.
Video Courtesy of Backporch Tapes
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Bruce Davis (right) with his lawyer Michael Beckman moments before the
start of his parole hearing (AP)
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Anyone care to venture a prediction, on the governor's upcoming decision?
"Put themselves out there", as it were...
It seems Governor Brown's track record is more lax in regards to parolees, than Arnold's was...
On the other hand...
Brown does have a political career to protect (like any other politican), and all that jazz.
How much will the "Manson" name and stigma effect Brown's decision in 2012?
How much fall-out could the governor expect from the release of a Manson associate in 2012?
How much does the general public really care at this point?
Are the folks in California more sensitive to this issue, than folks in say... Vermont?
(I tend to think so)
How would folks rate the fall-out following Grogan's release several years ago?
Did Grogan walk without a major national outcry?
Did the governor during Grogan's release, suffer ill consequence?
Weigh-in folks!
It seems Governor Brown's track record is more lax in regards to parolees, than Arnold's was...
On the other hand...
Brown does have a political career to protect (like any other politican), and all that jazz.
How much will the "Manson" name and stigma effect Brown's decision in 2012?
How much fall-out could the governor expect from the release of a Manson associate in 2012?
How much does the general public really care at this point?
Are the folks in California more sensitive to this issue, than folks in say... Vermont?
(I tend to think so)
How would folks rate the fall-out following Grogan's release several years ago?
Did Grogan walk without a major national outcry?
Did the governor during Grogan's release, suffer ill consequence?
Weigh-in folks!
205 comments:
1 – 200 of 205 Newer› Newest»Thanks for the news Katie!
You ROCK!
How about that?
Can he clear the Governor this time around?
Thanks, Katie. Outrageous. He was convicted of two counts of first-degree murder and he gets parole? Whatever happened to life without parole for murder?
I know Carol. I was afraid this was going to happen since it happened last time.
Tom, we'll see if the Governor agrees. I wonder what he'll do if he is released. Bruce has the same advantage that Clem had. Most people aren't familiar with those 2 being associated with Manson killings.
Carole,
California now has Life Without. At the time that the DP was struck down, California did not have it, only Life With Parole. As such, all DR recipients, by law, were eligible for parole consideration.
The current governor of CA is Jerry Brown, it will be interesting to see if he blocks Davis parole or not.
Schwarzenegger blocked Davis last parole, there is a pic of Debra Tate and Schwarzenegger playing in a swimming pool. Some people would consider that to be a conflict of interest.
!!!!!----DILLIGAF----!!!!!
I think Davis has a good chance of being approved by the governor this time.
I'm not saying "approval" is what I want personally... but, that's my prediciton.
Dilligaf... quick question:
Can the governor continue to veto the board's recommendation, without a substantial reason in writing... or, is the decision pretty much at the governor's whim?
OK... "whim" is a bit of a stretch... but, you know what I mean.
What exactly does the governor's review process entail?
Carole, you must be speaking from the standpoint that you believe he should serve life, as in his entire life, because after twenty some parole hearings, just for Davis alone...and between all of them, there must be close to eighty or more failed parole hearings through the years...i would think it would be hard not to realize that life without the possibility of parole sentences didn't exist at the time these murderers were sentenced.
And like clockwork, every time LVH comes up, her supporters constantly remind people opposed to parole for her that the parole board is committing her to a sentence she wasn't given...life without parole, by not finding her eligible. They conveniently fail to mention that after the benefit of three trials, she was convicted of multiple first degree brutally violent murders...committed with 'callous disregard' for life.
Seemed likely to me that this would happen, considering it did in 2010, when Arnold squashed it.
Be interesting to see what Gov Brown has to say...whatever, Bruce, and maybe LVH one day might get out, but they'll still be murderers.
This nonsense with these people coming up for parole constantly... 27 times in his case, I believe, or whatever it is, is because of the inadequacy of the sentences they were given.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned, or maybe it has been mentioned, i've missed some posts, that the California death penalty debate is currently on topic again in California, and on the ballot in November...
I am betting that Charles Watson is doing the 'Texas Two-Step' right about now...
Wonder what the 'Girls' think about this...
MARLIESE!!! Good to see you!
I agree with you and Carol. Unfortunately, the law is the law. These people were condemned to death, but when the DP was overturned, they magically got entitled to the possibility of parole. It should have been worded that any death penalty convicts were converted to life in prison WITHOUT parole. I'm not sure who was in charge then, but that was just inconceivable.
It's a shame because these family members of any victims have to attend these nasty hearings, and it's a burden on them.
It will be interesting to see what the Governor says in this case.
Watson can two-step all he wants, but he isn't going anywhere. Except to Heaven when he dies and all that.
But if the Davis parole happens, it looks brighter for the girls.
I would imagine LVH may find a flicker of hope in this...
doubtful Krenwinkel does though. Unless she has dementia, she has to know she won't see freedom til the day her remains are carried out of the prison. Same for Tex.
Hi Johnny!
I don't think that Tex has a chance to ever get out. As well as Pat, Leslie or Charlie.
Bobby...maybe...but I doubt it.
Bruce lucked out that he wasn't "charged" with multiple heinous murders. He didn't kill Gary, and he can claim now that his participation in Shorty's murder was minimal.
That doesn't even go for Tex, Pat, Bobby or Charlie. They are deeply involved.
Leslie might get a shot, but I doubt it.
LOL...yeah, except to heaven and all that.
Hi Katie!!! :)
And as much as many of you hate Bruce Davis and Leslie and Pat and Bobby.....I bet you would jump at the chance to talk to them on that Brian Wilson show or one of these blogs or anywhere else.
Am I wrong?
Tom....if any of those killers came on Brian's radio show, do you think for one minute they'd tell the truth???
Come on....Get outta here! LOL.
Probably not. If they even remember what happened. The passage of time and memory are not always good work mates.
I think they remember everything. They just don't want to tell everything. Every time they tell the story, it gets minimized.
Killing folks is a memorable experience. It's not like going to the grocery store on a random rainy Monday afternoon.
Leslie Van Houten went from saying "the more I stabbed, the more fun it was" to "I only stabbed a dead lady 16 times".
I'm sure all of their attorneys were advising to stop bragging, and start minimizing.
I think for a long time, Leslie Van Houten had convinced herself that she wasn't guilty of first degree murder..i think for years she believed she should have been found guilty of a lesser charge, not realizing she convicted herself of first degree murder in her final trial when she admitted that she thought ahead of time about whether or not she could kill and decided that she could.
And after several years, she went through the stage of okay, i'll admit it, whatever you want to hear...and now, she's back to i only stabbed a dead lady, along with...'i don't want to talk about it, i don't have to talk about it, and i'm not going to talk about it...' feeling, evidently, that she's a completely rehabilitated woman, isn't required by law to speak of her crimes, and should be released...
I think she'll get out in a few years...
I don't think Charles Watson will ever get out.
So let him do his Texas Two Step to the pits of Hell!
Yeah, you would remember the night you killed somebody....But still, the foggy recollections of drug abusers, the self-preservation instincts of defendents on trial, that weird dynamic of youth, peer loyalty, cult belief...
Add that to decades of incarceration. Reflection. Maturity. Coming of age. Religious awakenings and so forth.
My question would be, how reliable would any of their recollections be now?
But if I had a chance to talk to any of these folk, I wouldn't exactly turn it down.
Thanks, Marliese and Dilligaf, for explaining California's life sentence laws to me. I'm glad CA now has life without parole for first-degree murderers. Katie, I agree with you that people who originally got the DP should have gotten life without parole when the DP was overturned, but what can you do? Tom, I have no desire to speak to these people. I wouldn't ever want to meet them.
Tom your first statement was the truth:
"Yeah, you would remember the night you killed somebody..."
Nuff said.
Governor Moonbeam needs to reverse the decision of the parole board.
When Politics and the Rule of Law come to a very public showdown.....
Politics wins. But this is California, so who the hell knows.
The national media is beginning to report on this story.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/panel-recommends-parole-ex-manson-follower-article-1.1175349
Hi Marliese!
Marliese said:
"these people coming up for parole constantly... 27 times in his case, I believe, or whatever it is, is because of the inadequacy of the sentences they were given".
I agree.
The fact that we ended-up with parole hearings for Tex and Pat, is proof that the system is (or, at least was) kinda F-ed Up.
I mean... can you imagine... considering a guy like Tex Watson for parole?
The whole concept, is demeaning to the victims.
LS,
Once the full Panel reviews, if it upholds the decision, it will go to the Governor to say Yes or No. If he says No, he will have to state his reason, though it may be vague, and in general. The more detail the better, as, like last time, you can bet Davis will sue, and it will go through an Appeals court.
How Brown will rule is the big question. While he is very pro-inmate, he is also pragmatic. He knows that he has Prop. 30 that he wants passed, there is Prop. 36 which would revise the Three Strikes law, and Prop. 34 to eliminate the DP. Releasing Davis could bring out the conservative vote more than anticipated, most certainly defeating 34 & 36. These increased conservative votes would certainly then vote against 30, which is the huge multi-Billion Dollar tax increase Brown is promoting.
California definantly needs a death penalty because of all the serial murderers who seem to live there. I can't understand why every female in that state doesnt have a revolver under her pillow and in her pocketbook.
Remember how John Phillips greeted the creepy crawling Mansons in his garagw with a shotgun. They didn't come back.
i wouldn't be surprised if he was released this time. but remember he has additional time to serve for a federal gun charge. if they let davis out, i think it will be highly likely van houten will be released before her 70th birthday.
My Comcast homepage news says this:
"His release was opposed by a Los Angeles prosecutor and by a former Manson family member, Barbara Hoyt, as well as Sharon Tate's sister, Debra Tate, who attended the hearing.
The recommendation is not the last hurdle in Davis' quest for freedom. The parole grant is subject to a 120-day review period by the entire parole board. If it is upheld, Gov. Jerry Brown then has 30 days to review the decision.
Los Angeles County district attorney's spokeswoman Sandi Gibbons said: "We certainly disagree with the board's decision. We will evaluate how we plan to proceed as the matter goes to Gov. Brown."
Brown's spokesman Gil Duran declined comment after Thursday's hearing, saying the issue had not yet reached the governor's desk."
At about 4:50 in Michael speculates on the Shorty murder location.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8bsip6u0c8
While filming law enforcenent is investigating another homocide in the same area.
Thanks everyone for all the info. Good stuff!
Check this out:
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/10/05/3848858/parole-board-recommends-release.html
Evidently, this time Davis admitted to active participation in the murders, contrary to his previous admissions.
So, admitting active participation in murder = getting a release date??
Maybe next time Leslie can admit that Rosemary was still crawling on the floor when she gave her 16 whacks.
Babs tried to convince the Board that Bruce wanted to be 2nd in charge, but I guess either they didn't buy it, or they didn't care.
for some reason i see Bruce in the car heading away from prison yelling 'STOP!' at the first McDonalds that he spies from the backseat...he must have the 'fastfood jones' pretty bad at this point.
i wonder if Clem has ever been back to Spahn since he has been released?
As Dill pointed out, the pressure on Gov. Brown might be enough that he would veto Bruce's release. He's still got a long way to go before he gets his $25 and clean pressed suit. LOL.
I was thinking that if he did get out, would it be for him like it was for Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption? After spending so much time in prison, you just can't function on the outside? Or would he jump right back into a cult situation and try to be 2nd in charge?
Johnny...LOL!
the Shashank Redemption is a great film and the one thing that struck me was the reality for these prisoners getting out after 3 decades is how fast society moves. things will seem 'the same' yet 'different' in so many ways. for any prisoner, making the transition is tough.
PS: you know, Sponge Bob's Mr Crabs is voiced by the actor in the film that played that badass Prison Guard who holds Tim Robbins over the edge of the building. If you listen to the movie you can sometimes here the Mr Crabs voice...LMAO
Johnny, Shawshank was a very good movie. I loved it at the end when that bible thumping warden got his. LOL.
It would be VERY tough to adjust being in society again after all those years. If he does get out, he'll have to find a job. On every application, it asks "Have you ever been convicted of a felony, and if so, what was it"? That's gonna be a real stumper. LOL.
I wonder if Bruce would change his name like Grogan did and try to hide his past.
Well, he is close to 70 so on the job front, he'll no doubt already have something -not manual labor- lined up prior to getting out. i am guessing it will be a church related one from a supporter.
same with a place to live.
Given his age, he would qualify for Social Security and Medicare.
Grogan was a much younger man when he got out and started over. I will hand it to him for being able to reinvent himself and apparently able to stay out of trouble. To be a successful musician under any circumstances is tough, to do so with the self inflicted handicap he started out with as an ex-con is doubly impressive. Although I thought he shouldn't have been released in the first place I have to recognize that he has apparently been able to do well and stay out of trouble.
In regards to Davis, I don't think he'll bother changing his name. He'll likely be paraded about on the Church Circuit as a 'bad man who was saved by Christ' so his name will be a plus.
Johnny you bring up some very good points. Although in order to collect Social Security income, you have to have paid into to it during the years before your retirement. Davis did have a few random jobs in the 60's but I doubt he paid enough into it to matter.
But like you said, he could probably get on with some church, or maybe even have a traveling tent revival, preaching against sin and stuff. LOL.
And I agree, I don't think Grogan should have gotten out, but at least he's been keeping a low profile and a "clean nose".
Mr. Poirot!
I give up! Whatever it is you are on, I gotta get me some.
The Shawshank Redemption is a great movie.
Maybe Charlie was really diligent about withholdings for SSI...I can see it now, Charlie late at night working the ten key as he prepares W-2's for the folks at Spahn Ranch.
I am no SSI expert but as a US Citizen who did pay in (I am assuming he had at least some jobs early in life that took out SS taxes) he'll probably get the minimum.
But I really think he'll be taken in by a Church and used to bring folks to Christ, etc. In return, they'll probably provide a make do job and place to stay.
All in all, a good deal for Bruce.
But you never know, he may have some money left to him from his parents or other family members that have passed away. A close family member may have put it in trust for him. And if it was placed in a decent mutual fund it may be a decent amount of money at this point.
I wonder if Bruce will be taking any 'collect calls' from Frontera Prison. He'd probably crap his pants...
Or, maybe the call would go like this, 'This is a collect call from Frontera Prison, inmate Charles Manson.'
Bruce, 'Yeah, well This Is the Zodiac Speaking!'
LMAO
Thanks Dilligaf.
I didn't realize, that Davis has the right to sue, in regards to a veto by the governor... or, that Davis had already done so (last time).
I just assumed it was tough cookies for Davis if he was denied by the governor... and that, was that.
Wow...
Exactly how many rights (and appeals) do these murderers have anyway? LOL
Dill, what I want to know is how do these prisoners pay lawyers for their services? They don't have any money. Is it pro bono?
I highly doubt that his 'quarters' are paid...i don't know the social security laws but do know the basic that it takes ten years of social security covered employment to earn forty quarters.
But he might qualify on his former wife's record, and she had a long career as a flight attendant...i think it includes qualifying former spouses...
>>>Johnny said: Maybe Charlie was really diligent about withholdings for SSI...I can see it now, Charlie late at night working the ten key as he prepares W-2's for the folks at Spahn Ranch.>>>
Yeah, I can just see him sitting at a card table with a light bulb hanging down from the ceiling wearing one of those visors. LOL.
Marliese good point.
Boy, if he took his wife's SS benefits, that'd probably burn her up. LOL.
Yeah, like a character out of Dickens Village...Katie...LOL!
Reality is that Charlie didn't do anything at Spahn's Ranch but squat on, mooch off, steal from, and trash property that didn't belong to him.
Those pictures of the raid...doesn't he look like the filthiest thing there? Like a dirty rotten vd infested child molesting little creep to me. The stench practically seeps off any paper the photo's on...
If Davis gets out, think he'll head on down to Santa Susanna Pass Road and have a look around? A Sunday afternoon drive. Can you imagine.
>>>Marliese said: Those pictures of the raid...doesn't he look like the filthiest thing there? Like a dirty rotten vd infested child molesting little creep to me. The stench practically seeps off any paper the photo's on...>>>
Isn't that the truth!!! He was revolting in all of the photos I've seen of him. I can't even fathom any girl wanting to be with him. Yuck!
So you walk into AppleBees and spot Bruce sitting alone at the bar. What's your opening line?
Hey Johnnyseattle...I am lovin "John Dillenger Slept Here". the book about the criminal history of St. Paul. I have visited several of the sites. Great book. Thanks tons for the tip.
Marliese said:
"Reality is that Charlie didn't do anything at Spahn's Ranch but squat on, mooch off, steal from, and trash property that didn't belong to him.
Those pictures of the raid...doesn't he look like the filthiest thing there? Like a dirty rotten vd infested child molesting little creep to me. The stench practically seeps off any paper the photo's on..."
LMAO!
I can't argue with facts. : )
That was freakin' funny.
The only thing funnier, was the time I did the skit about Tex's ex-wife.
She's out on a date with a "suitor"... explaining over wine (to her date), that she has several of Tex Watson's children at home.
Talk about dating "deal-breakers" and "baggage". LOL!
Damn...
Debra Tate has some huge breasts in that photo.
Freakin' watermelons... LOL!
Didn't Leary once say, he was a "breast man"?
Wow...
Got Milk? LMAO!
*waves hi*
I've been sans laptop for 3 weeks and omg! It looks like I'll be reading the blog this weekend! ....off I go to make more coffee and settle down for some reading.
Bruce Davis ordering two for twenty at Applebee's! LOL!
I'll have to think about an opening line, Leary. But for sure something about the deaths of Zero, Doreen Gaul, James Sharp, what took him so long to admit his involvement in Gary's murder, the real facts of Shorty's murder, did he go up to Cielo after the slaughter, Nancy Pittman....etc etc etc
OMG that photo of Debra!
She looks like she should be creaking open the door to a haunted house...what's with the spooky maid's outfit?
The worst photo of Debra...ever.
Barbara looks better...healthier.
I haven't had a chance to read all the comments, but what Marliese said...a whole lot of shady when it comes to Bruce and what he was involved in.
I admit to being a raging, flaming liberal, but I'm quite conservative when it comes to crime and punishement. I know, how strange, but not really. lol
I am just not comfortable with premeditated murderers being released. Ever. Same with sex offenders.
I think Bruce will get out this time. And, LVH will be next. Tex. Never. Patricia, never. Chas. Never. As it should be.
I agree with you, Reese's. Honestly, i don't know if Brown will let the parole stand, but if he does, then I think it'll help Leslie Van Houten. Though I think she'll probably get out on her own, one way or another anyway. Eventually. If that makes sense. :)
It does, but I was thinking a body bag...lol. I shudder to think of her cavorting around in Rosemary's clothes...wonder how she would look in a body bag?!
I know the feeling. I've thought that too, body bag, but it sort of seems like times are changing, i don't know.
Have always had this vision, dead Rosemary oozing on the floor and Van Houten standing in front of Rosemary's closet, moving through the hangers, looking at stuff...with the filthy hands that had just tied a pillowcase and lamp cord over Rosemary's head, pushed her around, stabbed her beautiful skin...
Lynyrd said >>>>>>Damn...
Debra Tate has some huge breasts in that photo.
Freakin' watermelons... LOL!<<<<<<
It's FAT. She is obese. Fat.
And i just thought how good she looked in a brief television interview this morning...probably taken from yesterday. Her skin was clear and pretty, she was wearing less make up than usual...in more natural colors. Maybe she had a facial for the cameras. :)
That photo of Deb & Babs reminds me of an old tintype photo from the 1800's...where one is standing and the other sitting. And they're barely smiling.
Looks like Deb is giving some kind of "finger signal" on Bab's arm. LOL.
ReesesPeace said:
"There's a whole lot of shady when it comes to Bruce, and what he was involved in".
I agree.
I've always believed, that Bruce's crimes are steeped in the most mystery.
Bruce is like the grim reaper.
Whenever he's around... folks mysteriously die.
Bruce was on-hand when Zero died "playing russian roulette".
Bruce was also suspected of being in Europe, when Joel Pugh committed suicide, as well.
(It's never been proven, but suspected)
And of course, there's Davis' "special versions" of the Hinman and Shea events... in which, Davis always minimizes his participation.
"Shady" for sure.
I don't believe Bruce was the zodiac... but, I do believe he was likely involved in more murders (and crimes), than he was actually convicted of...
The guy's creepy.
That's all there is to it.
I agree with Steven Kay in this video.
I think Bruce was actually closer to Charlie, than Tex ever was.
I don't know if I'd use the term "right hand man" (as Kay does), 'cuz that's just kinda queer (LOL)... but, Bruce was definitely higher-up (than Tex) in the pecking order, in my humble estimation.
Oops, meant to say "Babs'". LOL.
I like what Steven Kay says on that video:
"I feel sorry for the people who are gonna wake up and find out that he's their next door neighbor".
Wouldn't that be wild to go to church one Sunday and there's "no lips" Bruce passing around the offering plate. LOL.
From Starcity Radio:
"Coming up this week on The TLB Radio Program we will talk with Davis' attorney Michael Beckman and get the inside scoop, on yesterday's parole hearing for Bruce Davis.
Sun. Oct 7, 8:00pm ET
Among other things, Beckman will talk about a tactic that Debra Tate used at Davis' hearing yesterday".
Sounds like a great program.
I GOTTA hear what Debra Tate's new "tactic" was! LOL!
If Debra Tate is pulling-out new weapons (of mass destruction, LOL)... my curiousity is totally peaked ! LOL!
Nice present for Brucie's 70th birthday....
My gut feeling is that Jerry Brown won't approve this...Liberal or not, he was living in Laurel Canyon during these events and trials and remembers the feeling of the day...
One of the newspaper articles said if Davis is released, he will be placed in a home in LA to "prepare for adjustment to the outside"...wonder if that would be made public record....hmmm...
Among other things, Beckman will talk about a tactic that Debra Tate used at Davis' hearing yesterday".
Maybe it was wearing that black flower. LOL.
Hi Reeses!! Hi Kimchi!! :)
I will also go on record that Jerry Brown won't let this parole happen. Too much political downside.
The Brian Wilson show this Sunday sounds interesting. Hope to see many of you there.
Hi Tom. Do you mean Brian Davis?? LOL. I'll be there! :)
My bad. But I can make that.
Katie or Tom, ask Brian to ask Beckman why Davis and his wife divorced...
Inquiring minds want to know...LOL
Will do Kimchi. :)
I just noticed that the article that had Deb's & Babs' pic misspelled California in the picture caption.
They spelled it Calififornia. LOL.
I love this title from the UK Daily Mail NewsPaper
"Anger over decision to free Charles Manson's right hand man after 40 years in jail for double murder"
I can see Tex in prison, tears running down his eyes wailing 'but I thought I was his right hand man...'
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And yes, now that Brian (and LC) are back with new shows he has become again the place to listen to on Sunday night. Must Listen to Radio.
And for all the anons, just go ahead and log in under your regular handle. They'll treat you right.
"I like what Steven Kay says on that video:
"I feel sorry for the people who are gonna wake up and find out that he's their next door neighbor".
Wouldn't that be wild to go to church one Sunday and there's "no lips" Bruce passing around the offering plate. LOL.
October 5, 2012 1:36 PM"
Ain't No One gonna stiff the Collection Plate when you got the Zodiac keeping an eye on the offerings....
Good Gahd, I just got a good look at the pic of Debra and Barbara! WTF is up with Debra's evil prison matron look?! Right out of Central Casting!!
Anyhoo, is anyone willing to share why there seems to be a hate-on for Barbara? I have empathy for her; she was just a kid when all this crap went down and that had to mess her up. She's hanging and getting high, getting laid and bam! They're murderers! I can't imagine what that would do to me...just musing here and curious as to why the scorn for her. My feeling is she feels guilt for associating with these tricks back in the day and I say good for her if she continues to speak out against these killers. My opinion, don't slam me too hard. lol
Lynard probably said it best. When the conjungal visits were terminated, so did the marriage.
I hope Babs isn't gonna be living in fear of one of Bruce's old prison pals paying a visit to settle a debt, while Davis is all alibi'd up sometime.
And prediction! ...I betcha anything that old Bruce will have a new young bride within 6 months of walking, if indeed he does walk this time.
Cease...nooo!!! I shudder at the thought of anyone being with this guy. Ewwww.
I want to take this time to say thanks to Lynyrd and Katie...you guys do such an awesome job here! Really thank you for your efforts!
Hi Cease!!! I had the same thought. Babs only has a few months to go underground. Shudder.....
Reeses, I'm with you. I personally admire Babs & Debra for attending these ghastly hearings. It's gotta be more fun to have a root canal. But they are faithful to attend these hearings to keep these monsters locked up. I say cudos to them!
And you're very welcome! :)
"Brucie's 70th birthday..."
I like the extra "I" Kimchi... nice touch! LOL
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Yeah Tom:
When the conjugal visits end... so do the marriages. LOL!
------------------------
Katie:
That Calififornia screw-up was mine.
I fixed it.
The original caption just said "Cali", and it bothered me. LOL!
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Reeses:
You're welcome and thanks!
What...
No one's ever heard of Calififornia?! LOL!
Actually, conjugal visits for California inmates serving life ended many years ago...in the mid 90's...probably 15 or 16 years ago.
I think Davis and his wife are recently divorced, maybe 2010?
Sometimes there's a 15 year afterglow...
: )
LOL!
Lynyrd! I am NOT willing to speculate on an *afterglow* from BrucIe. No way, no how! lolol
I think Bruce's wife (I don't even know her name) probably just got tired of going through all that rig-a-ma-role just to see him.
Why she even married him I can't imagine. I guess she doesn't like competition. LOL.
Has anyone else noticed, that EVERY talent competition on tv now... whether it be dancing, singing... or anything else for that matter... has to have, at least one British judge with a thick English accent?
What's up with that?
Evidently, Simon Cowell set a new precedent!
I LOVE Sharon Osborne though... so, no complaints there.
Reeses said:
"Lynyrd! I am NOT willing to speculate on an *afterglow* from BrucIe. No way, no how! lolol"
Understood.
I can't say that I blame ya, on that one! LOL!
Yeah wait'll good ole Bruce gets out and sees how expensive it is to live now compared to 1972. And he'll have to pay for his medical and dental treatment instead of it being free. He'll have to buy gas for his car, groceries, car insurance, car inspection, pay utilities, and most of all...he'll have to pay INCOME TAXES.
He'll probably say "D'ooohhh, what was I thinking?" LOL.
Her name is Beth, Katie. I don't know, but i'd guess she probably toughed it out as long as she could...
and i'd guess the thought that he was likely never going to get out probably had more to do with it than losing conjugal visits 16 years ago...but i don't know.
Their daughter must be grown by now.
Speaking of tv.
Does anyone else hate that show, "How I met your mother"?
I can't even stand surfing past that stupid program.
It's gotta be the worst show on tv.
I digress...
Katie, he'd proabably qualify for some sort of assistance, wouldn't he? i know that is gonna set it off, but the dude is 70, right? What kind of job is he gonna get? Greeter at MallWart? How old are the kids he had with the ex? Will/are they gonna help Pops? Lots of questions and I'm sure..hopeful!...that the parole board has these questions and so much more.
Hope Brian asks the lawyer what Brucie thinks of having a black President?
Helter what?
I think conjugal visits would be gross. I'd be afraid the horny guards had bored 2 eye holes in the wall and hid them behind a picture, like Norman Bates on Psycho, so they could watch. Yikes.
Marliese, I can't imagine why anyone would marry a convicted killer, period. I'd be afraid they MIGHT get out, and then come home and kill me....
Reeses, I don't know what assistance Bruce would get other than what's afforded to other seniors. Maybe Medicaid? AARP discounts? Senior lunch discounts at Luby's?
Lynyrd, the last comedy show on TV I watched was Seinfeld, which I still watch in re-runs. Everything after that is trash.
we've been known to watch two and a half men reruns. Berta, Rose, Alan, the mother...they are hysterical.
I've watched 2-1/2 Men when Charlie Sheen was on there. I haven't watch it since he left. I like him.
Did anyone ever get to see Grace Under Fire? It was a sitcom back in the 90's and it was hysterical!!
LS,
In the past, an inmate accepted their fate, but recent court rulings in the past 10 years have allowed such cases to proceed.
Katie,
Only inmates which face the DP are provided counsel at no cost. For everyone else, you either pay for your own or find someone who typically wants/needs publicity so they accept the case pro bono. However, occassionally you will find a firm which relies partially from money contributed by thughuggers who believe that everyone in prison is innocent, and that The Man is just keeping them down...
Lynyrd, I am only a "breast man" at KFC.
With women, if they have stories, I'm in. At my age all the other stuff is window dressing.
But you know what is weird, just the other day I was saying to a female friend that the one thing that causes me to look twice at a woman is good posture. How square is that?
As far as medical care in California or LA County, Brucie would qualify for General Relief, or GR as we call it which also pays them a very small pitence but they have to do some type of Community Service unless they are disabled, in which case they would qualify for SSI and they don't have to have their 40 quarters in...
absolute agreement with ya on "How I Met YOur Mother" Lynyrd. Can't stand 30 seconds of it. and two and a half men without Sheen is plain pitiful.
As far as medical care in California or LA County, Brucie would qualify for General Relief, or GR as we call it which also pays them a very small pitence but they have to do some type of Community Service unless they are disabled, in which case they would qualify for SSI and they don't have to have their 40 quarters in...
Thanks Dill!
>>>Only inmates which face the DP are provided counsel at no cost. For everyone else, you either pay for your own or find someone who typically wants/needs publicity so they accept the case pro bono.>>>
So I'm wondering where Bruce's attorney fits into all this. Do you think he did it pro bono because of the notoriety?
I wonder the same thing about Tex, Leslie, Pat, Bobby or Charlie's attorneys. They aren't facing the DP, just trying to get out.
I read that Tex wrote that book years ago to help pay legal fees because the burden was on his parents. I guess the parents of these losers used to pay legal fees. Although I doubt if Charlie's mother shelled out a dime for any defense.
>>>Leary said: But you know what is weird, just the other day I was saying to a female friend that the one thing that causes me to look twice at a woman is good posture. How square is that?>>>
I think that's sweet. HA HA.
Here is a picture of Bruce at the hearing.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-manson-family-member-jpeg-0cae7.jpg-20121005,0,2005042.photo
I agree with Katie...it is sweet that Leary's head is turned by a woman with great posture. It is really not common anymore. (as I slouch in the hammock! lol)
Doesn't the state pay for lawyers for those who can't afford them? Isn't part of the Miranda warning something about, If you can't afford an attorney, one will be provided for you by the courts...?
Carol MR asked about court appointed lawyers. It's been my experience with "public defenders" that they are basically worthless. These "court appointed" lawyers have MANY cases assigned to them, they do very little work on each one, and they almost never help their defendant. A "pay" lawyer can be very expensive, $6,000 or more, but it makes a BIG difference, I know from experience.
Also, MichaelsBackPorch has a bit more recent vid of the Davis parole hearing posted. Davis is visible speaking, Tate/Hoyt are not. It can seen HERE.
i will say this, for a fellow approaching 70 Bruce looks in good shape.
Which brings me to my next question.
Does life in prison add to or reduce life expectancy? There are alot of variables to consider. On one hand, you have the despair of being locked up for life.
On another hand, you really never have to worry about shit. They bring you your food, you got a roof over your head. I see alot of 70 years on the outside all bent up and senile.
Carol,
Under Miranda, you may have an attorney provided based uupon you financial position, however, that is only for the initial trial. Post-conviction, any attorney utilized is not provided for free.
Some Publid Defenders are new and inexperienced, some have too many dcases, and some are actually pretty damn good. Many jurisdictions, in order to provide a sufficient number of attornies will contract with local defense attornies. Like anything else, you can get good or bad. The constitutuion does not say you have to receive the best attorney possible, just an attorney. That being said, it does not help any prosecutor much if defense counsel is completely inadequate, as it can lay the foundation for an appeal for the defendant.
Thanks Sunset. I watched that clip about Davis.
Tom, as to your question as to whether a man in prison would have a longer life expectancy than a man on the outside, I think that question can only be answered by someone who was actually in prison.
Maybe Sunset can elaborate if he wishes. If he doesn't..that's cool too.
I can't imagine what it would be like to be locked up for over 40 years. I think it would be the worst nightmare I can imagine.
Having that door slam shut every night....
In my opinion, I would think that anyone who is locked up would prefer to be out. That's why these goons keep having parole hearings.
Except maybe for Charlie. I think he prefers it on the inside.
Wow! Sorry for the typo's, that's what I get typing fast and talking at the same time....
To end my day I would like to ask any of the bloggers or visitors to this site, if I can call you friends, if you are prayerful people, could you please say a prayer tonight for Anita Mann, who is housed in the Jean Conservation Camp in Nevada.
Kids can get themselves in more Goddamned trouble....I don't even know how to end this fucking sentence.
shakingmyhead.
Thanks so much Dill!!!
I have one more question and won't keep bugging you.
I was wondering if, in light of Bruce's new admissions of participation in murder, if a civil suit could be brought against him by the families of Hinman and Shea. I know there's probably a statute of limitations in civil suits, but with this new evidence, could there be a chance of new civil suits against him, perchance he gets out??
Tom, who is Anita Mann?
I agree Johnny.
Physically, Davis does look pretty damn good for his age.
--------------------------------
Yeah Tom...
I wonder what's the average life expectancy for a lifetime inmate, and how those figures stack-up against the average life expectancy for someone out in society.
I'd like to know the stats on that myself.
Do people actually live longer in prison?
Of course, "All in the Family" is my all-time favorite comedy.
As for current comedies... I like "King of Queens" the best.
"Arthur", "Deacon", "Spence, "Carrie", "Danny" and of course "Doug" are all hilarious.
Lou Ferrigno has even been featured on the show a few times, as himself. LOL!
Jerry Stiller is crazy! LOL
At it's core... it's basically just a remake of "The Honeymooners", but I still can't get enough of it.
"The Office" is a very good show.
"Two and a Half Men" was quite entertaining with Sheen (I haven't watched it with Ashton).
Most recently, I've really been getting into "The Big Bang Theory". LOL
At first glance, "Big Bang" is just cheesy and ridiculous... but under the surface, it's actually a complex show... and a complete scream.
In short... "Big Bang" is one of those shows, that you really have to watch for a while to reap the humor.
The characters are majorly developed... and 90% of the humor, is knowing their indidividual personalities, and predicting how they're going to react to situations.
Until you learn the characters, the show doesn't make a whole lot of sense... but, it's worth the investment.
All the characters are complete freaks in their own right, and their interplay is the cruxt of the humor.
And of course, "Penny" is smokin' hot.
Thank You Dilligaf, for all your great contributions.
Leary...
The reason you like "good posture" is because it makes the boobs and butt stick out.
All kidding aside... good posture (shoulders back, head up, etc) really does accentuate those anatomical features.
You're still looking at the same stuff... you're just too damn old to realize it. LOL!!!
"Dayum Lynyrd... did you see the posture on that?"! LMAO!
Sure did Leary... sure did!"
Since you asked Katie, I'll tell you what I know about prison. First, let me say I have no idea what it would be like to be sentenced to "life". (or the gas chamber, as several Manson family members were).
My sentence was 3 years, I did it day for day and that was about 15 years ago. I was in minimum, medium, (visited the dentist in maximum) and super max. There was no parole for me, in fact I don't think I remember a single inmate ever getting parole, and I loosely knew about 2 or 300 inmates.
A guard told me once he knew guys that had be "jailing" for 15 or 20 years. That's all they did was in and out of prison. Charles Manson is one of them. He doesn't want out of prison, he doesn't even try. I knew several guys like that, as their release date drew near, they would be scared to death.
Bruce Davis is nearly 70 years old, he's been in prison for 40 years. I'm sure he wants out, but it probably scares the hell out of him also. He may move to a halfway house, might get involved in some type of church activity, he may walk on the beach and have a heart attack and die the day he's released.
Wow, thanks Sunset...
I worked with a girl who was in prison for 2 years for forging checks and stealing cars for her meth addiction.
She told me all about it. She hated it. And she told me there was no way she was going back.
I wish you well Sunset. I don't know what you did to get arrested, but I surely wish you well.
And I appreciate all the effort you give to provide us with thread ideas and links to interesting info!
Keep the faith! :)
Tom G,
You got it. Remember, 'this too shall pass.'
Tom, I'm not sure what you're talking about....
Hi Tom...
I missed your post.
I must have been typing all my comments, when you posted.
Anyway...
I wish Anita the best, and I'll say a prayer for her.
I hope you're OK.
Thanks, Sunset77 and Dilligaf, for the info on court-appointed lawyers.
I saw a close up of his face from that photo, and he looks every bit of 70 and more. He's finally losing his hair, and he looks thin, haggard, tired, and old...in the close up.
That sort of handsome, gray at the temples look he had about 15 years ago is gone! Like Jeff MacDonald...he looks awful too.
Can you imagine what Van Houten must look like now? She won't face the camera, and she was looking pretty beat up from the sun and no skin care several years ago.
Tom I don't know what you're talking about, but sweet dreams and rest easy.
We'll talk tomorrow.
Ciao! :)
Tom, you're so good.
Prayers for Anita. She made a terrible mistake, and i hope she can have a future one day, hope her life isn't completely lost.
Katie, Anita Mann is a young woman, a minor at the time, couple years ago...DUI, killed two people, sentenced to more than 20 years, eligible for parole in a few years now.
Marliese I'm so sorry to hear that. I know that young people can make mistakes that can last a lifetime, and can hurt everyone involved. I know that very well. It's something that's going on with one of my kids now.
When I first got my license back in 1969, I thought my shit didn't stink and I was running around town lickety-split. I ran over a dog. I'll never, ever forget that. It wasn't a DUI, but it was a careless moment when I wasn't looking.
If I cost the lives of 2 people even by accident I don't know what I'd do. I'd probably just think I should just stay in jail.
I also agree that Bruce looks like a worn-out old bag. His face looks like it was zapped with a laser beam. From his nose down to his chin is red, probably from aging. He doesn't have lips, but he never did. Plus he has "old man ears".
>>>Can you imagine what Van Houten must look like now? She won't face the camera, and she was looking pretty beat up from the sun and no skin care several years ago.>>>
She looks hideous too. Gone are the days when she was in a "beauty contest" in high school. Now she's just a hag.
She is only 3 years older than I am, but she looks 25 years older.
Her hair is solid gray, her skin is parched and stretched and her teeth are sticking out like she's eating corn thru a picket fence.
Leslie is younger than Bruce but she looks like his great, great grandma.
And I'll reiterate (which means repeat for those who are slow), that people who don't pay into the Social Security system will NOT receive benefits from the system when they retire.
It's always been thus. Nothing has changed. It doesn't matter what state you live in.
If you don't work your whole fucking worthless life, you can't retire on Social Security.
I don't know how to explain it more simply than that!
Should I make it more clear????
Social Security retirement is NOT the same as SSI. SSI is for disabled individuals and it has nothing to do with age. It's NOT a retirement check. It's a check you get each month BECAUSE YOU'RE DISABLED. You have to prove it. You can be 2 to ? years old.
Has NOTHING to do with old age!!!
If anyone needs clarification, please let me know.
"so these parole officers that are releasing Davis don't care about his future?"
I say "why would a parole officer making $20,000/year spend the rest of his life filling out papers for this stupid SOB to have a nice life?"
SERENITY NOW!!!
Katie,
I must appologize that I am unaware of Davis recently admitting involvement in a homicide, so it is a little hard for me to comment. However, a suit can be filed for almost anything, it is whether it has merit that makes the difference. If this were a recently discovered homicide, even if it were old, but had been concealed until now, an argument could be made that any potential statute of limitations had not run out, as the act of keeping the act concealed was part of an ongoing act. As such, one could argue merit. However, if this were an old homicide, with facts known, it would be more difficult to argue. I am assuming that you are looking at it from a wrongful death perspective? If so, a case would have a better, though not necessarily a good chance, of having merit if a conviction were obtained first.
Okay with that said....Debra, Babs and Robin, have a nice evening. I'm going to to retire.
I think I'll have a brandy/whiskey for once and head for the house.
Ouch...I wish. No such thing. LOL.
Sweet dreams girls.....Maybe someday we'll meet....Night!
Thanks for responding Dill.
I was talking about Bruce finally assuaging that he was more involved in the killings of Gary & Shorty.
I thought it might be worthy of a civil suit.
Sorry to keep bothering you.
the reason davis looks so young in that clip is because it's from the late 90's. i know this because i have a copy of the parole hearing.
someone asked if grogan had ever been back to spahn ranch: i know when he was released he was paroled to his parent's home in topanga canyon. he may not have walked the land again, but sure he drove by it quite a bit. i believe his parents lived less then a few miles from spahn, remember he was a ranch hand before manson and the family showed up.
also on the creepy aspect of davis, during his days in southern california there was a series of 'highway disappearances.' these typically involved a young broke down alone on the freeway late at night. it was reported by witnesses that a man in a sports car(usually a corvette) was seen helping these women. of course though the women were never seen again. there are still parents and siblings looking for them today. very sad, cat's has some info on her forum about them. i would not be surprised if davis was involved in some (or all of these).
Even if it was possible to file civil suits against Davis for Hinman/Shea, what would be the point?
Davis has been locked up for 40 years! What could anyone possible hope to get from this guy if they did win the civil suit?
Seems to me it would be a huge waste of time/money, not to mention opening up old wounds. And for what.....ya can't get blood from a stone.
Unless there's some aspect of a civil suit I don't know about....isn't it basicly just suing for money?
Didn't work out too well for the Goldman's, and OJ had money. Davis ain't got squat that I know of!
Just my opinion...
Lurch, I was wondering about the civil suit against Davis because if he is released then he could, at some point, write a tell all book about the 2 murders he was charged with and possibly make a lot of money.
If a civil suit was made against him and won, they could have a lien against any future money he might get.
I'm not saying he would write a book, but he could.
That's the whole point about these civil suits against Casey Anthony. She has the potential to make a lot of money if she waits long enough. But if there are judgements made against her, she's gonna have to pay them off if she ever makes any money.
As far as OJ goes, I don't know why he never paid anybody, unless he hid his money before the lawsuit.
Katie, i think the only money oj has left is his football pension, and i don't think pensions can be taken...
Like you said, he probably put everything...real estate, if there was any value left...in his daughter's name.
And too...i think OJ's income probably, though i don't know for sure, depended on him being a viable commodity...you know, a face before the camera, can't do that in prison. Advertising for GAP clothes and Dockers and Hertz etc etc. And when he stopped working in tv and stupid movies, the money stopped coming...
And Johnny Cochran et al took a lot, and he probably liquidated a lot of what was left...and he wasn't exactly Paul McCartney as far as having billions in the first place.
beauders, i know the photo you're talking about, i saw it from a link posted here too, but there is a photo, googled it, from the recent parole hearing, and he looks ghastly...with a vague look...like there's nothing there. prison, even the mens colony, has taken a toll. elderly prisoners are pathetic.
which reminds me...i think anyone that thinks he was zodiac doesn't know much about the zodiac.
Dilligaf...really appreciate/love your comments and expertise. And the name.
Thanks Marliese. From what I've read, OJ had plenty of money before the murders. He owned a house in Brentwood, which is an exclusive area of LA. You would know more about that than I do since you live there. I think he also owned the condo where his ex-wife lived.
But he probably did spend a lot of it on his defense, and after the trial he was tainted and nobody wanted to work with him, so I agree, with no money coming in, there might not have been much left.
I do think he killed his ex-wife and her friend. Just my opinion.
I'm not sure what picture of Bruce everyone is referring to, but to me, he looks old in every picture. Maybe I'm not seeing what everyone is seeing. :)
I just posted the most ghastly photo of Bruce, that I could possibly find.
Enjoy! LOL
(If anyone can find a worse photo of Bruce... feel free to email it to my gmail address, which is in the sidebar.)
Whoa Nellie. Now THAT'S a bad picture of Bruce. HA HA.
I'm here to please...
LOL!
Rockingham...i admit to dragging my husband to Rockingham in the 90's. LOL. Rumor has it Tony Orlando lived there in the 70's...did drugs with Freddie Prinze in the master bedroom closet. The same master bedroom where Ron Goldman's blood was found on a sock of OJ's...wasn't that how it went, been so long.
And Ron's blood in the Bronco. Stupid, stupid jury.
It has been torn down and rebuilt.
Think of it up against the swaggering bruce coming out of the los angeles sewers...
Pathetic.
I know. Aging....does it to you every time. LOL.
Hey Lynyrd check your e-mail. Let me know what you think. I'm working on a thread but I need your help!! :)
Anyone care to venture a prediction, on the governor's upcoming decision?
"Put themselves out there", as it were...
It seems Governor Brown's track record is more lax in regards to parolees, than Arnold's was...
On the other hand...
Brown does have a political career to protect (like any other politican), and all that jazz.
How much will the "Manson" name and stigma effect Brown's decision in 2012?
How much fall-out could the governor expect from the release of a Manson associate in 2012?
How much does the general public really care at this point?
Are the folks in California more sensitive to this issue, than folks in say... Vermont?
(I tend to think so)
How would folks rate the fall-out following Grogan's release several years ago?
Did Grogan walk without a major national outcry?
Did the governor during Grogan's release, suffer ill consequence?
Weigh-in folks!
I don't think releasing Davis at this point would cause much stir anywhere except maybe in California. The average Joe doesn't even know who Bruce Davis is.
The only problem would be what Dill mentioned. Some proposition that the Gov. wants passed might not pass if he releases Davis.
I was watching CBS This Morning on Friday, and they briefly mentioned Davis getting granted parole and the main news media is so far away from this case they screwed it all up. They said that Davis was convicted of killing 2 men on the "ranch" where a bunch of hippies were living. They don't even care enough about this case to fact check.
Katie, if Davis wrote a book, wouldn't the proceeds have to go to his victims' families?
And what do you think Doris Tate would think of his being granted parole?
holding out the best for you Tom...
Hope it works for the best
Hi Carol. I don't think the proceeds would go to the victims' families unless there was some sort of judgement against Davis, as in a lawsuit judgement. But that would be another "Dill" question. LOL.
I don't think Doris would like his being granted parole, only because it might open the door to the killers of Sharon. I don't know if Doris had anything personally against Bruce since he wasn't at Cielo Drive. I feel fairly certain that she didn't care for anyone in the Manson family because of the association.
Hi ST Circumstance! :)
Smooooooooch
Great post and excellent contributions :)
always so excellent to see Marliese so engaged !!
notice the mention of two and a half men...
Ya want to see something freaky- go check out the actress who played the character Candy on two and a half men ( Alan married her briefly) and then put her pic up against a pic of Sharon from Fearless Vampire Killers when she had red hair...
uncanny resemblance
hope everyone is well!!
peace
I believe Bruce will walk. Balancing the budget by any and all means is a priority today. And planty of face eating scum are waiting in the wings for available cell space, looking to gobble up some tasty tax dollars.
Bruce can be considered low risk by now. And is small potatoes in the news and public perception re. political fall-out.
I don't know if they can seek to get him halfway housed in his own state, or if it has to be Cali. But I'd imagine that it might be made clear off the record that Bruce would be well advised to get the f*ck out of Dodge ASAP, and stay out of the public eye.
So ironically, this guy could be one of the beneficiaries of the economic downturn.
Thanks ST! Glad you stopped by ! :)
Cease, I don't know if he'll get out or not, but I agree, if he does get out he needs to leave California and keep his head low.
The last time Davis got parole I had read where he may be sent to a federal prison to serve out his gun conviction even if he is released from the state facility he is in now.
Mr. P I didn't know that. What gun conviction?
Saint C! You're here...:) It's not the same when you're not, and...I agree with everything you said. Forgive me, please, for being late, i was all fired up to respond, and within an hour of seeing the posts, it was too late. And I know it's done now, it's over, i won't revisit the hurt, just know those particular posts of yours are why I think of you as the heart...the generous heart, of these blogs...
About Bruce...I think Governor Brown will probably let the parole stand.
Brown appointed Rose Bird!
Back in the day...and the Rose Bird court abolished the death penalty, until it went to the voters, resulting in these commuted sentences of life with the possibility parole...there was no life without at that time, as there will be if the voters decide against the dp this November...
How ironic. Saved twice by the liberal Jerry Brown? I think the statistics are that he has allowed about three quarters of the parole recommendations, while Arnold's record was about a third or so...
So i'll say yes, Brown will let it stand. It's my understanding it will be six or seven months before it comes to his desk....
Lynyrd, you asked about outcry from Grogan's release. I don't remember any, do you? I'm outraged now, but wasn't then. I remember thinking, okay the kid got out, good for him. i was young and dumb. And didn't have a clue about his history.
And now, i think 15 or 17 years, whatever it was, is way too lenient for his crimes, and i can't understand why revealing where the body was located should have had any impact on parole decisions (if it did). It is said he did that in order to prove he hadn't mutilated Shorty's body or cut him up in nine pieces. Yet the head was found separate from the rest of the skeleton...so how did that happen, did the coyotes rip it off? i thought he was buried? And how about all the years he let him rot, and didn't say where he was buried? Is that all forgotten? The anguish Shorty's mother and family experiened? Stupid assholes like Bruce Davis saying, i don't know, maybe he's still alive, there's no body.
Now that we've all researched and studied the circumstances, i think it's wrong he was released after such a short time.
Katie, Davis bought a gun (a Radon) under an alias which is a federal offense... the same gun he gave to bobby and then took back and held on Gary.
not a scientific poll by any means, but i had some friends/relatives from Cali who stopped by overnight. i asked them about the bruce davis release. the response was a blank look all around. i then said use to hang around with charlie manson and got some stirring of recollection from the folks over 40. anywhoo, after outlining what bruce did -or what was proven in court- the consensus was given the time he spent in prison to date (40 years) plus the current budget situation in California in general that they pretty much are willing to roll the dice on a 70 year old being released back into society.
sometimes i forget how far under the radar this manson stuff really is at this point.
Marliese I agree. Grogan shouldn't have been released because he proved they didn't "cut him up". Dead is dead.
BTW, does anyone know offhand what Doris Tate's reaction was to Clem being released? I can't recall.
Thanks Kimchi! I think I'd heard that story before but I couldn't remember how it went.
Johnny, I don't know anyone "in real life" (LOL) that knows anything about the Manson case. I've always been interested in it since it happened, but most people couldn't even tell you the names of the victims OR the family, except for maybe Tex and of course Charles Manson.
yep, which makes me think for Gov Brown it won't be a political issue at all. most folks will say 40 years served and 70 years old...we need the space for more dangerous folks today, not back in the day.
Hi, Katie. I think convicted murderers can't benefit from books or movies about their crimes. It's called the Son of Sam Law. But since Davis' crimes occurred before Son of Sam, maybe this wouldn't apply to him.
Carol you're right. I forgot about that law. That might apply to him too.
Johnny you could be right. Gov. Brown might not have any problem with it at all.
I really thought since they didn't even release Susan Atkins on her death bed, that none of them would ever get out. But...these times could be a-changin'. LOL.
You know, when you stop and think about it, Mary Brunner had a lot more involvement in Gary's death than Bruce did. It seems awfully lopsided that he's the one who has been in prison all these years and she hasn't.
Hi Marliese.
Personally, I think Grogan served a very lenient sentence.
I agree with you there.
Just my opinion... I'm not on the parole board.
As for major "fall-out" or "public outcry" during Grogan's release... I also don't remember any.
I saw much more public outcry, when Casey Anthony was acquitted.
My question regarding Grogan was kinda rhetorical.
I was thinking (to myself) the other night:
If no one cared about Grogan in 1985, why should a governor fear repercussion regarding Davis in 2012?
It's just the way my mind was working... so, I figured I'd throw that question/thought on the thread... and see if anyone else was thinking the same thing.
I must say..
My own personal experience, parallels what Johnny and Cease2 expressed.
I have no idea, what public opinion is like in California these days, regarding Manson family criminals.
I've never lived in California... or, anywhere near there.
I can only speak in terms of my area.
In my area... no one even knows who the funk "Bruce Davis" is.
I'm not exaggerating.
They really don't.
As Johnny said:
If you add the preface "Manson associate"... they'll catch-on.
But until then... they have no idea.
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If Bruce Davis was released... and I visited my brother with the news... the conversation would go like this:
Me: Knock, knock, knock...
Brother: Hey, what's up?
Me: Did you hear? Bruce Davis was released.
Brother: WHO?
Me: Bruce Davis... one of the Manson Family guys.
Brother: Oh really? Huh? How long's he been in jail? Like 100 years? (and then, he'd chuckle a bit)
Me: A little over 40, actually.
Brother: Huh?
Brother: So, you wanna come in? Or, you gonna just stand there, talkin' about bullshit?
And that would be the end of it.
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Truth be told... most of my family and friends, couldn't name two of the "Manson family" victims.
And... (as Johnny suggested), the folks under 35 years old, have even less of a clue.
I'd be willing to bet, that half the folks under 30 years old in my area, think Manson is already dead! LOL!
Anyway... my point (and yes, I have one. LOL!):
Governor Brown obviously operates in California.
So obviously... his concern regarding public opinion is focused in that area.
That's his focus area.
Since the murders actually happened in California, amongst Californians... the wound may still be fresh... AND, the media may still be on top of this case.
I can only use the experience and contributions of friends in California, to educate myself.
I have no idea...
But if my own area is, in any way, reflective of what's happening in Cali... I'd say Brown has zero to worry about, in terms of public outcry.
If Grogan was released in 1985, without anyone's head falling off... I think the same could be expected today.
Having said that...
I'm eagerly awaiting the outcome of the governor's decision, out of sheer curiosity.
It seems Davis also earned two master's degrees in prison... (at least according to one source).
I have no idea if Bruce Davis will be paroled.
I have no crystal ball.
I can only guess, like everyone else.
It kinda makes me laugh, when others speak with absolute certainty regarding such matters.
How could anyone possibly know the outcome with absolute certainty?
Let's face it:
If anyone predicted in 1980, that Grogan would be a free man in 1985... they would have been laughed at.
Just a little perspective...
I'll just say this:
I think Davis has a pretty good shot... what with, the present economy... his track record... and Brown's reputation.
The fact that Davis has been approved (by the board) once already, also has to work in his favor (at least somewhat)... no matter how miniscule, the impact.
Extreme Games!
http://youtu.be/Bn09g1bwgDc
Grogan cut a deal, it was more than just where the body was...
He was cut loose in the middle of the night, there was no publicity whatsoever....
It was very hush hush, plus he was allowed to change his name which tells us he was in some sort of witness protection program...
Kimchi said:
"He was allowed to change his name which tells us he was in some sort of witness protection program..."
Hmm...
Interesting stuff Kimchi!!!
So, you believe Grogan was actually in a witness protection program of sorts?
I had never heard that expressed before.
Heck... it never even crossed my mind.
It's certainly intriguing... and kinda makes sense.
I mean... Grogan's release was certainly done discreetly... and, he was given some sort of deal for cooperating.
What kind of "deal" would it be, if they threw him to the lions?
Definitely something to think about...
They called cooperation "turning state's evidence" in regards to Kasabian (and her "deal").
Any formal legal terminology for Grogan's cooperation Dilligaf?
Parolees are not usually allowed to change their names?
That's another thing I wasn't aware of...
Dilligaf?
Any thoughts?
The advantages of blogging...
Kimchi never ceases to amaze me!
Thanks Kimchi!
You ROCK!!!
Are we open on Sunday? Good Morning All.....I live in good ol' sunny California. I do believe that I might remember hearing that when Brown ran for office, a big part of his pitch may or may not have been that he wouldn't be in politics anymore after all of this so he had no personal alterior motives. Now, remember I said that may, might,and nothing concrete, so don't hold me down to these words. :) Hope all is well with all who are well :)
A video of a news story containing some details about Grogan's release from prison can be seen HERE.
At least one of the aliases used by Grogan since his release is pretty common knowledge. I won't post it here as he was probably "outed" by someone, (possibly an internet blog).
Someone sent me a link to a "private" YouTube vid of a person they claim is Grogan performing in a musical group. It may or may not be Grogan, I can't tell, he looks very different from the "Clem" of the Manson family.
A 'parolee' isn't on formal parole, or whatever the correct term is, forever, is he/she? Isn't there a specific term, like a couple years? I don't know, but i'd guess, his performing career came after his parole supervision ended. He's been out for 25 years.
Was the name change official, or a 'stage' name?
Bruce Davis will probably change his name to Charles Manson or Chuck Summers.
MrPoirot said...
Bruce Davis will probably change his name to Charles Manson or Chuck Summers.
October 7, 2012 1:49 PM
and his home address will be Spahn Ranch, Chatsworth CA....
Hi Marliese.
Dilligaf would probably be our best resource for these types of questions.
In my area... I'm pretty sure paroled individuals are under supervison for a prescribed amount of time, as you suggested.
I would guess, the length of such supervison, would be dictated by the severity of the original crime.
I've known a couple folks (very loosely) who were on parole for non-violent crimes.
Hence, my indirect experience.
However, I've never had any direct (or indirect) contact with a paroled murderer (LOL)... so I'm not sure what the average length of supervison is, for those guys/gals.
If Clem is currently visiting (and possibly residing) in the Mediterranean... I'd say it's pretty safe to assume, that he's no longer under supervision.
It seems to me, that the sheer number of paroled individuals floating around in society, would make it financially (and logistically) impossible to track everyone indefinitely/forever.
Having said all that...
I would imagine, that (initially) a parolee who is participating in a witness protection program/agreement... could also be placed under parole supervision, depending on the nature of their crimes.
I don't see why those two situations couldn't run concurrently.
But again... I'm not a lawyer.
Dilligaf?
As for Grogan's name change... I have no idea.
Hi Josh!
Lynyrd, it's not difficult to change your name in La County, costs about 500.00 and a court appearance...I know you have to disclose your criminal history but I don't know the legal aspects of that, Maybe Mr. Dill will explain that...
Oh...
We're on to that double-page thing folks.
The comments split-off at 200 posts, to a new page.
Just follow the blue "newer" and "newest" arrows, at the bottom...
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