LaBerge/Watson
Hello Everyone!
It seems the LaBerge-Watson discussion has overtaken my previous thread... so, I've decided to "go with it". "Give the people what they want", as they say.
One could easily write 10 threads (or a book) on the phenomenon which "Suzan" presents.
For starters... how often does a child lobby for the release of their parent's murderer?
Can we ALL agree... that's just freakin' weird?! What could be the motive for that behavior? Etc, etc.
To simplify things, I've decided to offer just one tidbit regarding Suzan, at a time.
I can't "prove" anything of course... but hopefuly, the upcoming threads (or tidbits, LOL) will provide "food for thought" and discussion.
Discussion #1:
Harold True
Judy Hansen (private investigator) interviewed Harold True during the time Suzan was lobbying for Tex's release.
During this interview, Judy hammered Harold True for 10 minutes straight, in an attempt to tie Suzan to "the Family".
***Judy utilized all the usual angles... the close proximity of Harold's residence to the LaBianca's... the close proximity of Tex's apartment to Suzan's apartment... the strange phenonmena of Suzan lobbying for Tex's release, etc. It's all in there.***
It's no exaggeration to say, that Judy Hansen's sole purpose throughout this entire interview, was to throttle Harold True into corroborating a connection between Suzan LaBarge and the Manson Family.
Judy NEVER strays from that topic or goal... not even once.
As you listen, you'll see... Judy gets nowhere.
Of note:
In this interview, Judy was working with Bill Nelson.
Judy occasionally talks to Nelson, in the background.
Harold's testimony is just one man's opinion and proves nothing... but bear in mind:
Harold True picked-up Charles Manson on the Pacific Coast Highway (with his bags), the day Manson was released from Terminal Island Prison.
Harold True knew Charles Manson from day one.
Something to think about. More to come...
43 comments:
I think it may actually be "Judi Hansen" (with an "I")... not "Judy Hansen" (with a "Y").
If anyone knows for sure... let me know... I'll change it.
Venus writes:
New Manson Documentary
It'll air on the "Investigation Discovery" channel on Tues., Sept. 11th in the evening. Times will vary depending on your location. It's called "The Devil's Business" and is part of the "Twisted" series.
Note:
Kimchi just posted the same information on the previous thread... but, I figured I'd pull it forward, so no one would miss it.
I've never heard this before...it is hysterical!
Favorite lines:
"those fuckin' fruitcakes"...
"I got a college education, i know a few little fuckin' things about life and law, and i know people when they're nuts"
"i got a good fuckin' lawyer thats how i got out of there'...
"ugh kernwinkle, she carries her brains in a lunch bucket"
"that one don't, that's a lead fuckin' ballooon!"
There appears to be two tex Watsons. There is the Tex who was not in Charlie's sphere and the Tex who was. Judy Hanson says Tex lived near Suzan in 67 which is pre-Charlie. So I guess the thread of thought by Judy Hanson is that Tex knew Suzan Pre-Charlie before Tex went bonkers with Charlie and drugs.
There is Texas Tex pre-Charle and California Tex per Charlie.
I think Suzan didn't know Tex period but it is interesting that Tex lived in Suzan's locale on two occasions.
Its interesting to speculate that Watson and Suzan knew each other pre Helter Skelter but without some sort of evidence it remains speculation and nothing more.
She could just be a crazy nut job seeking attention and the whole Watson thing was an easy way for her to get it.
People can live that close to each other and never meet.
that ladies is bonkers insane, Suzan with a "Z"....lol...I don't see why certain people seem to believe this connection to be anything "new" and the motive of Tex being a worldclass psycho to be new thought. I'm SUPER glad Tex is getting so much attention. He's the ONE. It's good that this subject is comin back around again. I believe in Rodney King....Can't we all just get along.....such pettiness....
A new thread idea would be why there is always so much possesiveness and animosity within the groups surrounding this subject. It just breeds hostility
That Judy sounds like a real Bee-zatch!
"Suze" is kicking-up sand over at Eviliz's place.
Please folks... just ignore her.
If Matt wants to contact me directly, I'm always available for him.
Suze states:
"Sorry, but I'm gonna fuckin speak out! Matt developed a motive on LaBianca. Fucking Tard Blog Steals the topic and takes ownership of it".
Slow your horses Suze.
Firstly...
Most bloggers have been discussing this topic for a couple weeks.
Just last week, Cats was scanning tons of probate papers regarding Rosemary's estate.
Matt even posted a link to her work.
Secondly...
I've read Matt's thread.
It's well-written with impeccable grammar, punctuation, spelling, and presentation.
It's also quite thought-provoking.
These are all key ingredients for a great thread.
He did a very good job.
But bear in mind however, the vast majority of Matt's content was previously available.
I've used the same sources (many are public records), and read the same motive theories in the past.
To Matt's credit... I will say this:
I've never seen anyone invest the time and effort necessary, to categorize all those details (from several sources) into chronological order... start to finish.
Therein lies the beauty of Matt's thread.
It must have taken him hours and much effort, to pull all those details into chronological order.
As I said... he did a good job.
But now...
No one else can discuss the subject matter further, or utilize public documents?
Suze...
Judy Hansen (and Bill Nelson) were questioning a link between Tex Watson and Suzan Laberge 20 years ago.
The Harold True audio interview on this thread, was already posted here, on August 26, 2011.
This is a RE-POST.
I can't use my own material now??
The entire first half of Matt's thread is taken directly from the second homicide report, as Matt cited upfront.
The Second LaBianca Homicide Report was already posted here (in it's entirety)... and thoroughly dissected by Starship on January 26, 2012.
No one else can discuss the contents of the LaBianca's Homicide reports now?
If Matt wants to discuss this situation with me, my door is always open to him.
Going forward...
I'm going to ask my bloggers to ignore Suze.
It's probably just a sock puppet and I ignore those anyway...
That was an interesting interview with Harold True, the first time I ever heard it. Apparently, True was pretty familiar with the Manson family. I just read on another blog that Nancy Pittman, along with Manson and others attended a party at True's house in March of 1968.
True said he picked Manson up the day he got out of prison, plus another "buddy". I wonder if the other buddy was Phil Kaufman? I think Manson and Kaufman were in Terminal Island together, I can't hardly believe they were released on the same day though.
Just read something interesting from Tex's book...Accurate description of Labianca house, or typo?
"Apparently Linda recognized a house nearby, because she said something to Charlie about not hitting it. Charlie also knew the other place, having been there for an acid party with some of the Family over a year before, but he told her no, it was this house, the one directly across from us with the boat in the driveway-this was the house where Helter Skelter would fall again."
Hi Sunset!
I'm 94% certain that Phil Kaufman is, in fact, the "other friend" whom Harold is referring to...
Kimchi would know for absolute certain.
Kimchi?
Yes it was Phil Kaufman. He and Charlie met at Terminal Island and Phil said he would hook him up with music connections when he got out.
Harold True hung with ex cons. Is he an ex can too?
True mentions in the interview that he was seeing a pschologist.
I still can't hardly believe Manson and Kaufman were released at the same time. I guess prisons have changed since 1967. There certainly was no one released with me the day I got out. I had been held in a "concrete tomb" for the previous 6 months. About 9 a.m. one day they told me I was being released. I didn't believe it because there are always those types of rumors. By 1 p.m. I was riding in the back of a police car in handcuffs. They pulled up in front of a post office, told me to get out, took the handcuffs off and drove away. I was standing there in the sunshine, 200 miles from home, with 50 cents in my pocket.
Also, I read this on some "Manson Fun Trivia" site last night. "Charlie, I've been here before. You're not going to 'do' that house, are you?" Linda said this to Charlie before they go into the Labianca's house. She was talking about the house next door to the Labianca's, rented by Harold True. Linda had partied there before joining the Manson Family.
I'm noticing a trend that the Mansons seemed to kill people in houses where at least some of the family members were familiar with the house. I think Brunner and Beausoliel lived in the Hinman house for a while. There are many reports of the family being at Cielo before the murders. I'm not sure if they "creepy crawled" the LaBianca house prior, but I think I read they did. Of course they were familiar with Spahn where Shea was killed. This may have been one reason why certain members were selected to go to particular attacks.
If you want to hear Phil Kaufman 'the road mangler' talking about Term Island and meeting Charlie here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXJ7c-OUrNE
and here is Phil talking about Charlie's tapes and in this one he says he was released 1 year after Charlie at Terminal Island.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPcy1zIZGZ0&playnext=1&list=PL70E3846F33D1126F&feature=results_main
Revatron, either Tex was lying or somebody moved that boat out of the driveway to the street.
Because the pictures on Sunday, August 11th, 1969, clearly show the TB and boat in the street.
I think that Tex was lying. I'm sure that isn't a surprise.
Johnny, I listened to the second vid you suggested. Boy how did that guy eat with that "stache". LOL.
Maybe Phil Kaufman's lying. Do we have records when he got out?
Isn't this the guy that stole Gram Parson's body and burned it at Joshua Tree?
" katie8753 said...
Revatron, either Tex was lying or somebody moved that boat out of the driveway to the street.
Because the pictures on Sunday, August 11th, 1969, clearly show the TB and boat in the street.
I think that Tex was lying. I'm sure that isn't a surprise."
Frank Jr in the initial police report is unequivocal when he says 'never' in this statement to the police.
"On August 10, 1969, at approximately 2030 hours, Frank Struthers, Jr. was driven home from Lake Isabella by the Saffie family and dropped off in front of 3301 Waverly Drive, his home. He noticed that the family car, a 1968 Thunderbird, was parked on the street directly west of the house, and that the speed boat was still attached to the car. He felt this was irregular because his stepfather, Leno LaBianca, never left the car and speedboat out on the street overnight."
So you got Tex saying the boat was in the driveway (goof up, eh?) and the step son saying that Leno would have parked it there because he NEVER left the car out on the street overnight. Later Frank says that for sure by the morning Leno would have parked the boat in the driveway (of course, at that point Leno was dead) and Frank was trying to make sense as to why the ski's were in the garage but the boat was still out on the street.
To believe that he didn't follow his normal habit (recall Frank Jr said 'never') is to say that this habitual man --had to get his racing form at 1 am-- would drive 150 miles but not an additional 90 feet up the driveway because he was too tired. But not too tired to lug the skis up the driveway.
Just ask yourself, if Leno did follow his normal routine when he brought the boat to his house and somebody moved it I wonder who moved it? And why?
>>>Johnny said: Just ask yourself, if Leno did follow his normal routine when he brought the boat to his house and somebody moved it I wonder who moved it? And why?>>>
Good question Johnny. Why would someone move it? What would the reason be. It would have to have been moved after the murders...but why?
But remember that the boat was usually parked at Mama LaBianca's house, so how do you account for that? Just wondering....
Johnny, I'm really tired, and I'm heading south.
If you reply and I don't answer, please don't take offense. I'll get with you some time tomorrow.
I've got a lot of work to do so I'll reply when I can. I'm not ignoring you. :)
Night!!!
"Good question Johnny. Why would someone move it? What would the reason be. It would have to have been moved after the murders...but why?
But remember that the boat was usually parked at Mama LaBianca's house, so how do you account for that? Just wondering...."
but when not parked at mama labianca's house it was home at Leno's, up in his driveway. just like Frank Jr says he always parked it. never leaving it on the street.
hey take care. i'll be spotty this week.
as to why the car was moved, Shreck offers a plausible explanation.
Yes, I thought Tex's choice of words were interesting, but let's not forget that he didn't really write the book, and info related by him to his author may have got mixed up.
If he were involved in moving the boat, then this has been kept a well guarded secret for over 40 years - The likelihood that he revealed a portion of this alleged plot in one sentence of his book is slim.
It feels to me that he is being misleading.
What again (according to this theory) was the point of moving the boat?
I think you're making too much of "Leno the habitual man". We are all creatures of habit, and habits are sometimes broken. Gambling is an addiction. Parking a boat in the driveway is a habit.
Revatron as usual I love your thinking.
Johnny, How many times do we know of that Leno brought that boat back and didn't park it at Mama's house?
And how unusual was it that Leno parked it in the street.
>>>Revatron said: think you're making too much of "Leno the habitual man". We are all creatures of habit, and habits are sometimes broken. Gambling is an addiction. Parking a boat in the driveway is a habit.>>>
I think sometimes we try to make the smallest thing most infinitesimal and sometimes we overlook the huge stuff.
Just my opinion.
Night!
Hey Katie!
All I can tell ya is that is what the one who lived in the house said, he 'never' parked the boat out on the street overnight. I don't Leno better than Frank Jr.
All I can tell ya is that if you want to call it a habit that's fine. Habits can be pretty damn predictive. Someone drives 150 miles can't be bothered to drive an additional 90 feet?
As for Tex, he is all over the place. Sometimes people slip up. Absolutely doesn't help to absolve him to say that the boat was in the driveway. If anything, it raises questions. So it isn't in his interest to have put in the book the boat was in the driveway. Yet in his book it is there. Kind of a statement against interest.
"Johnny, How many times do we know of that Leno brought that boat back and didn't park it at Mama's house?
And how unusual was it that Leno parked it in the street."
Lets ask Frank Jr, he said "NEVER" which would mean that it would be pretty damn unusual.
In regards to having parked it at Mama's house, in this instance it doesn't matter as Frank Jr said flat out that Leno "Never' parked on the street.
So yeah, pretty unusual per the step son.
I thought it was interesting too, that's why I shared it. I knew you'd like it.
The way the sentence is set up is really dramatic, and to me feels misleading. It doesn't make Tex innocent of anything.
These theories lack hard evidence. You wouldn't get a date in the courtroom with any of this.
What these theories allege is that these kid (far from master criminals), despite having been caught and punished for murder, have managed to get away with whatever REAL crime it is they committed.
The Family hasn't benefited any way, shape, or form from this alleged plot. Only Manson is content in prison. It's the last place the rest of the them want to be.
Yes, Kaufman is the guy that burned Gram Parsons body, he also raised money to produce Manson's album Lie, he also claimed to have had sex with all of Manson's murderesses.
I've seen the pic of the LaBianca boat sitting NEAR the driveway. Watson may have simply forgotten exactly where he seen the boat in the years between the murders, and when the book was written.
I know several people that when they return from the lake, they don't put the boat in the final storage position. Backing a boat up a driveway can be a pain in the butt, especially in the dark. Leno may have seen a parking space on the street big enough to accommodate the car and the boat, and simply thought "I'll put it away tomorrow".
Of course another possibility is the boat was moved. I'm pretty sure there were Manson family members capable of driving an articulated vehicle. I think I read they stole at least 1 semi truck and trailer.
I think that this is my favorite interview regarding the case I have ever heard...
I love Harold True... The first time L/S posted this- I played it for months whenever I had the blues..
"Can I show you a picture?"- NO!!!
I am sure this guy is very strong to himself with his convictions and I am sure this guy cant remember what color drawers he had on yesterday...
But if he kept talking- I promise I would have kept listening
:)
Well if the boat was in the driveway when they got there and it was in the street when the police arrived, then somebody moved it.
But my question is, why has no one ever mentioned it...ever? They admitted the stabbings and corpse desecration, why not mention moving the boat?
No takers on my last question? LOL
I've asked it before but no answer.
Why did no one mention it?
Either they did'nt move it or they had a reason not to mention moving it.
I guess.
I agree with Rev, not enough to convince a jury but certainly enough to have a reasoned discussion about it.
For folks thinking that parking it out on the street is no big deal just take a look at the picture. Look how islolated it is from the house. Given the past break ins that they experienced wouldn't Leno be more likely to want to secure that boat in his driveway versus leaving it out on the street? He drives 150 miles, my money is he drives an extra 90 feet.
I'll say this about Leno taking the boat to his mother's house. I doubt it was an option given that she was about to can him for stealing money. If he wanted to talk with mom, he could have done it on Saturday. After all, Leno was suppose to meet with her and others on Sat but he skipped out of town. Leno didn't seem anxious to see her given the direction of the conversation...
" revatron said...
I thought it was interesting too, that's why I shared it. I knew you'd like it.
The way the sentence is set up is really dramatic, and to me feels misleading. It doesn't make Tex innocent of anything."
Hey Rev
Thanks for thinking of me!
it is definitely a 'statement against interest' which makes it something that allows you to give it more credence.
All it does is open doors at a time when Tex should be wanting to close doors. He slipped up.
The first Labianca police report states Frank felt (the boat on the street) was irregular because his stepfather 'never' left the car and boat out on the street overnight, and goes on to say that he noticed his mother's 1955 Thunderbird parked by the garage and the water skis from the boat were lying on top of the fender. "This indicated to him that his parents arrived home late Saturday night and had taken the skis out of the boat to lessen the risk of theft. They normally would put the boat away the following morning, and this had not been done."
Its also could be read that Frank Jr was trying to rationalize why his step father for the first time (ie never) left the boat out on the street. He was taking facts and putting them in a rational form.
I was thinking that it was Phil Kaufman that Harold picked up at Terminal Island too, when he said he picked up Charlie on PCH, but in this interview, Phil says he got out of prison a year after Charlie did.
http://youtu.be/tPcy1zIZGZ0
It's Judy Hanson, she's my aunt.
It's Judy Hanson, she's my aunt.
Harold True is a loser who has always been jellous and scared of Manson.
The fact he bowed down to Charlie and then Charlie killed his old neigbours scared the shit out of True.
Once Charlie was safely locked up True spent the rest of his life dissing him. Never said dick to him face to face though did he? What a loser. He wished Manson would have let him join the family but he was too much of a sad case
Harold True assisted Charlie by providing him with appropriate lawyers details, he then worked along with Phil Kaufman on the release of the LIE album. In my opinion True was working with Manson from almost immediately after his release and provided a communication channel back to Kaufman who was still in jail for another year. To some extent I agree with the previous comment and would say there is some degree of disinformation in the above interview, I don't think True believed that at this stage Charlie had a problem with him. I do believe that later after Charlie was arrested and the dust settled, resentment simmered between Manson and Kaufman/True, they had managed to get off scot free yet were involved with Manson in illegal activity.
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