These are some great pix, thanks, I've never seen them, at least I don't remember them.
That last pic down looks very much like the old Chevy pickup my dad used to have. I remember latching those chain/hook type things to close the tailgate many times when I was a kid.
The Family are wearing woolhats. Musta been chily. The book "Desert Shadows" is about tha Barker raid. I love that book. Three days it took to round up Charlie's Family but when the cops were done Death Valley was free of hippie varmints. A funny part is when they caught Sadie who was supposed to be the lookout on top of a hill above Barkers. Sadie never saw a damn thing coming! LOL! If Charlie had cut his hair the cops might have never caught him. That would be a real twist to this crazy saga if Manson were never caught and remained a desert hermit till this day.
johnnyseattle said... i wonder if that was the pool where 'pat' first met garretson (end quote)
Poirot replies:
Maybe Pat Krenwinkle actually met Patty Montgomery who roomed with Garretson? It is at the guest house that Krenwinkle heard the name Patty Montgomery that's for sure. Garretson said years later that he met Krenwinkle. He denies it now.
How many dogs were there? Which house were they in? Who did they belong to? It seems I've heard Garretson mention a dog named "Christopher". I'm not an expert on dogs, but I've had a few, some dogs begin barking at the slightest disturbance, other dogs are "lazy" and could sleep through a tornado.
Apparently, Sharon Tate spent some of her last day feeding a small black stray kitten with an eyedropper. One site says the kitten was found wandering among the dead bodies.
If anyone hasn't seen it, there is a vid of the pet removal at Cielo, I'm guessing the film was made on Saturday, Aug. 9. The vid can be seen here.
Also, apparently, in the early 1990's the house was used as a recording studio by the musical group 9 inch nails. A pretty detailed tour of the property from this period can be seen here.
They apparently recorded at least one "music" video there, "Gave Up" (1992) featuring a young guitar player, (who else?) Marilyn Manson, can be seen here.
I don't think the dogs were loose to have been able to attack the killers. Sharon was caring for a young kitten she'd found...i think that comes from Roman's recollection of their phone conversation earlier in the day. And hasn't it been said that Sharon had put her little Prudence and Abigail's dalmatian puppy in the garage building that night...I think it was the kitten that had been wandering around the house and bodies when they were discovered. i think Debra may have said in an interview years later that Sharon had penned up the dogs to protect the kitten.
Anyway, a young Yorkie and a Dalmatian puppy would have been no match for Tex, i would imagine he'd have sent them flying...had they been around.
Rudy's dogs were not loose on the property for them to attack the killers either...they were in the guesthouse with whats his face. Didn't he say something somewhere about having to quiet them?
I am more puzzled about Leno and Rosemary's dogs. The side door off the dining room was open that night...not just unlocked, but open, I'm guessing because Leno likely had just let the dogs out into the fenced area on the side of the house and then went and sat on the sofa while they were out, dozed off, and that's when Charlie and Tex entered...through that door. I think it was Tex who said the door was open. Why didn't the dogs go crazy when the house was invaded?
Weren't Leno and Rosemary's dogs found inside the house? Hasn't leslie said they petted the dogs when they were in the kitchen raiding the fridge? That just doesn't make sense...i know our three dogs would never allow anyone in the house, let alone eat out of the fridge and accept petting from strangers with blood all over the place. They'd have torn those people to shreds, or been killed trying.
I've read that Rosemary said 'the dogs' are sometimes in the house when they should be out, when they'd been away. But was there just one dog there at the time of the murders? Or two? Can't remember. We've heard so much over years of researching and talking, it's hard to recall details sometimes! I think there is somewhat of an explanation for the Cielo dogs...they were penned up, and Rudy's were in the guesthouse, but the Labianca dog or dogs, were around... Unless they were just so spooked...i don't know.
I've read so much about these dogs that I really don't know where they were. So many different accounts.
Sadie made the comment while in jail that one of the dogs from the guest house came in the main house and stole her knife. Oh brother. Most of what Sadie said is pure nonsense.
i know dogs that would do the same...if someone tore off a screen and came in the house. But there weren't dogs were in the Cielo house when that was done.
And Rudy's dogs were not running loose on the property.
The only thing there is...is that Rudy's dogs had to be quieted. There may be more there with Rudy's dogs, who knows. The people that would know are crazy liars about everything else, so why would what they say about the dogs be reliable.
Sharon's Yorkie and Abigail's puppy were supposedly penned up in the garage area.
Prudence would have been quickly kicked in the mouth, or worse, had she been yapping at Tex as he came in the screen and through the house. But she wasn't there.
Marliese I agree. I wouldn't put any stock in anything the killers said about petting the dogs, etc. Their stories change every time they tell it. They can't even agree with each other on what happened at the murders.
Tom, I've been at parties that had dogs next door and I didn't know them and they didn't know me.
Billy wasn't playing the banjo during that sequence. Mike Addis, a local banjo player, was playing behind him with his hands on the banjo. Billy had his hands behind his back.
Katie said: "Hey Lynyrd, what's the difference between playing a banjo and playing guitar?"
I'm by no means an expert regarding the banjo... or even a novice, for that matter.
But... here's a couple more obvious differences:
#1) Generally speaking, most bluegarss and country style banjos sport 5 strings. Four and six string banjos do exist... but, they're not the norm. A banjo is primarily a 5-string instrument. A guitar on the other hand, is a 6-string instrument. (I hasten to add... there are also variations here... such as 12-string guitars, etc) But for all intents and purposes... you're looking at 5 strings on a banjo, versus 6 strings on a guitar. 'Nuff said.
#2) A guitar can be strummed OR individual notes can be picked. To my knowledge... no one ever strums a banjo. A banjo is primarily (if not exclusively) picked.
#3) The two instruments are generally tuned differently. "Standard tuning" for a guitar is EADGBE for the six strings, respectively. A banjo is tuned differently. Although... I hasten to add (again), that both guitars and banjos can be tuned many different ways. "Drop D" tuning... and "Open G" tuning are very popular on guitar. (I'm pretty sure Keith Richards used "Open G" frequently). All that being said... the "standard" tuning for a guitar and banjo, ("off the shelf", as it were) are different.
why would i be embarrassed to relate what Shreck is putting forth?
sorry i didn't run back here to post the rest of the story. when i did come back I was using a device in which typing is a pain or when i did have my computer i just got called away. given that, you'll have to forgive me I didn't drop everything to type in multiple pages in to the comment box. frankly, i didn't feel any real obligation as there is a book which is easily obtainable that outlines all of it. and just to repeat, like i said i was giving you the broad strokes.
the difficulty in putting it down is that there is a lot of detail and support that gets you to the point in which you can intelligently assess what he is putting forth. without putting it all down so someone can make a reasonable assessment -and not some half ass comment reflecting ignorance- it defeats the purpose and takes away from what Shreck is putting out there.
i think what is embarrassing is someone who has followed the case for 40 years and thinks Leno and Rosemary were Ozzie and Harriet Nelson. after all, Ozzie and Harriet probably didn't have their phone lines tapped. Ozzie probably wasn't subject to a $400 a day gambling addiction or about to be canned that very Monday morning by his own Mother for stealing. Nor had Ozzie been a Board Member of a mob run Bank. As for Harriet, I'll leave that be for now.
the key to the Shreck book is to actually read it rather than teeing off on something here or there. it boggles the mind that for folks who follow the case for the last 40 years and roam the internet to read/post on the case can't get it together to spend the sheckles to get the book. for someone who has a casual interest, i get it that the cost is a little steep and would not recommend they get the book. but for someone who wears it on their sleeve that they been following the case for 40 years, roams the net everyday to discuss the case and all that, the book is essential. much like Helter Skelter is essential. and if you don't get that, that's embarrassing.
Anyone with half a brain knows that Leno was not Ozzie Nelson. And yes, i've read the second police report...the one that details Rosemary's sex life...who cares. None of the people she had any kind of sex with caused her death.
I think most of us on the blogs understand that Leno was in trouble. He liked the horses, he gambled, embezzled from his family's grocery business etc etc...he was in trouble.
I know of no evidence that credibly supports the idea that Rosemary, as some imply, was a drug dealer. Other than some unsubstantiated nonsense about smuggling drugs on wigs or accessories coming into her shop.
I don't know how the court came up with a value of two million dollars for her estate....maybe there was somewhere near there on the books somehow, and when all was liquidated and debts paid, maybe it ended up being far less. I don't know. None of us know. But it's not unusual to look better on paper than when all is said and done.
Call me naive, but i would like to believe she was a loving, hardworking woman. Determined not to be poor...she grew up a poor orphan no one wanted. She did work hard certainly...a successful mobile clothing business was innovative in the 1960's...she opened a retail store, she apparently sold real estate...or at least earned a real estate license, it's said she invested in the stock market...I don't know, and i doubt she gave Leno any of her hard earned money to pay off his bad habits and poor judgment. My questions about her supposed wealth center around the fact that she didn't live lavishly...they gave up the big house they couldn't afford etc. and it would seem...again, we don't know, that her two children didn't each inherit a million dollars.
Maybe Schreck's book will one day be the definitive TLB book, i don't know, but I'm not interested in spending that kind of money for a book with a sociopath as the likely primary source.
I'd pay good money to somehow hear the truth out of Tex Watson though...but that's impossible....
hey Katie not to worry, we'll always be cool. i like folks that disagree without being disagreeable.
we have absolutely no problems between us.
see ya tonight. BTW, tonight is the night that the King of the Ring aka Chris will be on.
look at it this way regarding Shreck's book, for a mere $64 you are getting over 30 years of serious research into this case. some of it may be stuff you will agree with and some of it may be stuff you go WTF?--I need more support for that.
clearly Shreck is not doing this to make big bucks. otherwise he would have taken it to a publisher that would have made him clip down to about 400 pages. by doing it this way, Shreck is getting the word out on his terms.
Marlise I don't know, the way you write that you make it seem that she was living in some low end tract house. Her neighbor was Troy Donahue. He lived about two houses down from her. BTW, Troy knew Charlie.
Does it matter to you that Doris Tate, who thought long and hard about this case, never went for the Helter Skelter theory? Moreover, the week before she died Sharon told Doris that she wanted Abrigail and Frykowski out of the house. I wonder why....
Thanks Johnny. See you soon on SCR. Looking forward to hearing Chris again. :)
Marliese I have a feeling that Rosemary kept her money completely separate from Leno and she probably hid her purse at night. LOL.
I agree, I just picture her as a hard working woman who was trying to succeed. I think she just wanted to make enough to be out of that house and somewhere else. She didn't like living there.
Rosemay may very well have been a hard working lady. But lets get real about how much a dress shop in a strip mall is gonna bring in and lets really get real about those savant stock market trades she is supposed to have made. IF she really did legally pull those off then there will be a written record vis a vi tax returns, etc. Moreover, why was it that folks were surprised that she had amassed so much money in such a short period of time? Just asking....
>>>Johnny said: Rosemay may very well have been a hard working lady. But lets get real about how much a dress shop in a strip mall is gonna bring in>>>
Let me say first of all that I don't think Rosemary's estate was $2 million. I don't know where that figure came from. The Press?
I think this clothing that Rosemary was selling was designer clothing, which would bring a pretty penny. It wasn't a bunch of cheap rags like "Ross Dress For Less".
>>>and lets really get real about those savant stock market trades she is supposed to have made.>>>
I think she made investments in "safe stocks". When you invest in the stock market you can choose a "wild card" or safe stocks that will add to your dividends slowly. I think she made that choice.
>>>IF she really did legally pull those off then there will be a written record vis a vi tax returns, etc. Moreover, why was it that folks were surprised that she had amassed so much money in such a short period of time? Just asking....>>>
Good questions.
Again, I don't think she amassed that much money. I'm not sure where that figure came from.
The press can exaggerate anything.
As far as the claim the Rosemary was selling drugs from "wigs from Mexico", this is insane. (1) I've not read anywhere that she sold wigs. (2) there is no indication in any police report that she was selling drugs (3) there were no drugs found at the LaBianca house.
I would think a drug dealer would have some type of paraphernalia in house.
Same goes for Gary Hinman. Not one shred of evidence that he was manufacturing drugs.
Whether or not there there really was two million dollars has been questioned for years, so maybe you know? Just asking...
All i've read is what has appeared on the blogs...that in the aftermath of the murders, a newspaper article reported she was worth two million dollars when she was killed, and that a judge had appointed her daughter executor of the estate, and that details were not released 'in open court.'
I don't know how her estate was valued at two million dollars, does anyone?
I understand Truth on Tate LaBianca is scanning some documents that might get to the truth of the matter, and that will be very interesting.
Great post, Katie. The only place i've ever seen anything about Rosemary Labianca being a drug dealer is from people on the blogs...i don't think there is any proof or substantiated evidence that Rosemary was dealing drugs.
It will be interesting...if it's ever finally determined whether or not there really was two million dollars.
I agree with you, Katie...doubting there really was, two million dollars, and i don't know who, how, what came up with the figure, or how the value of the estate was determined...
Hi Marliese. I've been reading thru some of those probate documents and so far they haven't uncovered anywhere NEAR $2 million.
In fact, if I'm reading this stuff correctly, Leno's creditors are trying to attach a judgement against Rosemary's estate to satisfy his debts. I'm assuming they can do that since they were married. So I guess unless you have a pre-nup or some type of legal document barring your spouse from collecting, your spouse's gargantuan debt can hamper your inheritance to your children.
It looks like Leno's mother sold that house for little or nothing to pay Leno's outstanding debts.
Rosemary had some stock in the grocery store, and also seemed to own other property which was foreclosed on.
Leno owed Summit Finance Corporation around $370,000, which they tried to collect from Rosemary's stash.
I think $60,000 of this was an insurance policy. The rest of it is penny ante.
rosemary probably didn't want to pay off leno's debts unless she had to. she was aware that giving him cash was just gonna fly into the hands of some bookie.
plus, she may not have been aware of the extent of leno's debts. many spouses -esp back then- would be incurring debts without their better half's knowing about it.
third, the market was just not that dynamic back then. when you try to make money on trades you may get lucky once in awhile, but to be good at it you have to have some real insight and understanding of the market. and info back then wasn't as readily available as it is now.
designer dresses are one thing, but if the latest 'rosemary labianca' dress was bringing in serious coin i would be surprised.
That's my point Johnny. I don't think Rosemary had that much money.
I think she had just enough squirreled away that made her feel comfortable.
She may not have known about Leno's debts, and you're right, she wouldn't have handed cash to him. She might have just as well flushed it down the toilet. The guy was a loser when it came to money matters. He had a gambling addiction.
Okay I'm headed to the house for the night. We'll talk tomorrow. :)
At the time, LAPD would have examined her financial situation along with Leno's. Rosemary having a large amount of money doesn't help the Helter Skelter theory, ie ordinary couple picked out at random, yet Vincent Bugliosi in his book notes that everyone was surprised at the amount of money Rosemary had accrued from shrewd trades and her clothing shop.
I don't know what Bugliosi is basing that on, but he did put that in his book. He did have access to the LAPD reports, etc.
On page 77, in the online edition I looked at it says that according to Ruth Stivik her partner that Rosemary had a good head for business and it specifically states that when the estate went for probate it was worth $2.6 million.
Now I have issues with Bugliosi but he didn't need to put that factoid in the book but he did include it. It doesn't help the Helter Skelter theory per se. Bugliosi tends to be careful with the facts that he includes (it is the facts that he doesn't include I have issues with) so I am going to tend to believe that the probate records will reveal that Bugliosi had a strong basis for including that in the book. (I don't think he corrected that in subsequent editions).
Of course, I don't have the probate records or the tax returns, etc.
$2.6 million then would be about $15 million today.
She got that from shrewd trades and a partnership interest in a strip mall clothing store... I am gonna call BS on that. And if she was making serious coin illegally -and that amount would be considered serious coin- then she would have to be taking some serious risks to get it. Which would explain her over reaction from finding out from the newspaper seller that the Tate residence had been the seen of a gruesome murder. The newspaper seller says that her reaction was more than would be expected.
Bugliosi tends to be careful with facts that he does include in his book. Unless he changed that $2.6 million in subsequent editions, and I don't think he did, then I am going with him having a solid foundation for quoting that figure.
Johnny, you're right. Bugliosi does say that her estate was worth $2.6 million. I have no idea where he got that number.
But let's think about it. If Rosemary did have that kind of money (which I don't think she did), why not use it to be out of debt and be comfortable? I can understand her not wanting to put good money after bad bailing Leno out of debt, but being married to him made that debt hers as well. If nothing else, why not just divorce him and be done with it.
They moved out of a big "Disney Mansion" to move into the little bungalow on Waverly Drive, supposedly because they couldn't afford to live there anymore. If she had this much money, why not just pay cash for it?
They still owed quite a bit on the Waverly Drive house and they owed on the boat. Wouldn't it make more sense that those items would be paid off if she was that rich?
She hated living in that house on Waverly Drive because she complained that they had been burgled several times and she didn't feel safe. The house next door was a rent house and as such was housing people like Harold True and all his rabble rousers. Why endure that if you don't have to?? It doesn't make any sense!!
First of all, Waverly wasn't a hell hole. It was a pretty nice neighborhood (next door she had actor Troy Donahue and he was still a 'name' at the time) probably considered upper middle class. Harold True was gone at that point. The lots are fairly big so it wasn't like people were right on top of each other.
Here is a consideration: she may not have told Leno that she had all that money. she may have known that if she told Leno that she had that dough he would have treated that as he did the money from his family's Gateway Supermarket.
She may have been putting that money together as a private stash once her youngest -Frank- was old enough to be out on her own. Maybe she didn't want to move Frank out to another neighborhood, changing schools while he was in high school, etc. A mother will endure quite a bit for the sake of her son. She probably viewed it as a bit of stability for 3 more years until Frank went off to college or the military.
Lets not forget, she came from tough circumstances and knew what it was like to struggle. Many times those types of people know how to accrue money but are reluctant to spend it. The security of having the money in itself is what you want.
But who knows, it was a point in time. She didn't expect to die that day and maybe she would have moved 6 months later.
I know folks that stay in a home that they could afford to move out of for other reasons. My 'guess' is that it had something to do with not wanting to uproot her son and the realization that even $2.6 million wouldn't last long with Leno. So she let him handle 'the money' ie run up his bills but kept her stash secret and separate. If Leno knew she had that much, don't you think he would have raided that stash in the same manner he stole from his mother?
As to where Bugliosi got the number $2.6 million, I think he got it from the probate records. As the DA, he would have access to the LaBianca's financial information.
I can't stress this enough. While I think that there are facts that Bugliosi did not put in Helter Skelter, this is a fact that he felt confident on. Confident enough that he has never changed it in later reprint editions.
Until I see the actual probate records I am going to go with the amount he lists. It doesn't help his Helter Skelter theory at all so the fact he lists it gives me some confidence it wasn't meant to twist the case in that direction.
I know Harold True was gone but that house was still a rent house. Alice LaBianca said that Leno had run-ins with the tenants about their loud drug-fueled parties. Even with big lots you can hear a loud party. I know that from experience.
Question: How does Rosemary having a lot of money not help Bugliosi's Helter Skelter theory. Wasn't it all about killing rich piggies?
yeah, the helter skelter theory was about rich piggies but no one expected rosemary to be THAT rich.
it is an amount that is unexpected given her likely income stream. any questions into that may ask the 'why' which if you looked at her income tax returns and business financial statements may show that it wouldn't support a legitimate accrual of $2.6 million (1960's).
when you figure out that she couldn't have come across it legitimately it then begs the question, 'how' which leads into some uncomfortable areas.
so much much better for the Helter Skelter theory to have her with say a $200 thousand estate. still substantial but not as likely to raise eyebrows.
when i say THAT rich I mean worth 5 times what Abrigail was worth. If they said Abrigail Folger was worth $2.6 million no one bats an eyelash. that Rosemary LaBianca with her reputed 'shrewd trades' and half interest in a strip mall clothing store accrued close to $15 million in todays dollars within a decade that makes you wonder 'WTF' given what she was working with.
that Rosemary Labianca was a smart lady I have no doubt. that she herself was modest in spending her money I can go with. that she was taking some risks to get that kind of cash accrual i also have no doubt.
I don't take away from the millionaire next door syndrome to some extent. the ones i know are frugal with their spending (and don't have spouses with $550 a day gambling habits) and it takes decades (not just one) for this to occur.
in my world, i've done a lot of financial statement analysis of various businesses. it would take a lot to accrue what she did adjusted for 2012 dollars in such a short time. (ten years).
not saying it is impossible, just saying highly unlikely given what she started with (single mom with two kids) then married to a hubby with a huge gambling jones around his neck.
if legal. (actually, you are also suppose to report illegal income...'as if' eh?)
--------------- Shreck lays out a case that she was involved as a front for illegal money laundering activities and also involved with drug distribution.
recall her reaction when she learned of the Tate murders. the newsman said it was much more severe than he would have expected over a crime involving someone she had no connection with.
if legal. (actually, you are also suppose to report illegal income...'as if' eh?)
--------------- Shreck lays out a case that she was involved as a front for illegal money laundering activities and also involved with drug distribution.
recall her reaction when she learned of the Tate murders. the newsman said it was much more severe than he would have expected over a crime involving someone she had no connection with.
---------- hey, this not proving you are a robot thingie is getting harder and harder for me. LMAO
if she was making the money legally, she would be reporting a substantial amount of it if not all of it on her tax returns. that is if it was legal.
the comment about illegal income being reportable/taxable is also true. for example, al capone got nabbed on failure to report income from his criminal enterprises. however, i would not expect her to be reporting illegal income on her tax returns.
I watched the Cielo house video linked to by Sunset77. Thanks, Sunset. What a beautiful house before it was torn down. So charming. No wonder it was love at first sight for Sharon. I've seen crime scene photos of Rosemary and she had a dress over her nightgown. I remember Maury Terry, in his book, gives a long explanation for this and it had something to do (I think) with Rosemary planning on going out to run a nefarious errand. Does anyone know why Rosemary wore a dress over her nightie? Did the killers force her to put it on?
Johnny, as far as Rosemary's reaction to the Tate murders, I remember Saturday August 9, 1969 very well and how shocked and scared I was at the news report on TV about the Cielo Drive murders. I lived 1500 miles away. I can't blame Rosemary one bit for being upset about such a brutal murder that only happened about 10 miles away from her.
As far as Rosemary being a drug dealer, I just don't buy that. Unless someone can come up with some hard evidence that she was, I don't believe it.
As far as Rosemary using that dress shop as a front for money laundering, if she's not selling drugs, what money is she laundering? And if she's laundering money for someone else...who? And also, wouldn't her partner be aware of it?
Johnny, if you're tired of that robot stuff, you can e-mail Lynyrd to send you an invitation to join the blog. Then all you have to do is sign in and you won't have to type that stupid word. :)
Carol, Charlie said somewhere that when Tex went into the bedroom to get Rosemary, since she was only wearing a gown, he allowed her to put a dress on top of it. Nice guy, huh?
Katie, yeah, Tex was the gentleman, wasn't he? I wish I still had Terry's book so I could look this up again. In fact, I seem to remember someone posting that part of Terry's book. Terry's explanation for the nightie/dress made sense; but only if you believed Rosemary was doing something illegal.
Carol, from what I've read, Rosemary was in bed in her nightgown either asleep or almost asleep when Charlie skunked into the house. I don't think she was going to run any errands.
They had just gotten home from an almost 4 hour ride from Lake Isabella, it was around 2am and I doubt that she would come home, put on her nightgown, then throw a dress on top of that to run a nefarious errand.
If she had errands to run, I would think she would run them before she put on her nightgown.
unless the 'errands' were a last minute situation for Rosemary.
did you ever wonder why Leno who would always back his boat up the drive way left his car and valuable brand new boat out on the street? some of the items from the boat were removed like skis were placed behind the house almost as if at one point he had backed the boat up the driveway removed the skis. i find it hard to believe that he would lug those skis all the way up the driveway when he could have just backed up the car. Leno was an experienced fellow hauling a trailer so backing up wasn't a big deal for him. I find it hard to believe that he would leave that car on the street. leaving the car with boat trailer attached is a real invitation for someone with a trailer hitch just to hook up your boat and go.
Johnny, if Leno wanted someone to steal the boat why not just leave it at Lake Isabella with the keys in it? Why drive 4 hours one way (8 hours total) to lug it back, only to leave it in the street for some guy with a hitch to steal it?
Why take out the skis? Skis are a dime a dozen. Were they hand-made slolams? How do you know the skis were in the boat? Maybe they didn't take the skis to the lake.
And what last minute situation for Rosemary could it have been?
There were no cell phones back then. Are there phone records placing a call to Waverly Drive between 1:30am and 2:00am?
The timing is off. How could Rosemary have had time to run an errand after they returned home that night? And why would she throw a dress on over a nightgown? Why not get re-dressed??
I mean come on, they paid around $5,500 for the boat, and they still owed around $3,900. What benefit do they get if it's stolen?
They still owe the $3,900. Fair Market Value on that boat, used, would probably be around $4,000 or less. So they have $100.00 after they pay the balance?
It doesn't make any sense to get someone to steal the boat.
katie i am not saying Leno wanted to get the boat stolen.
I am saying that it was his habit to put the boat away in the driveway. In the morning when Frank showed up the car and boat was in the road adjacent to his house. Something that Leno would not do. Frank said he was surprised to see the car and boat out on the street.
Maybe the car and boat were backed up the driveway as was Leno's habit. Maybe subsequently the car and boat were moved by someone else. Maybe they then used Rosemary's car to take a little trip down to the Gateway Market and empty the safe. Just a thought that Shreck follows. Of course, he offers more support to get you to that point.
Katie, I agree that Rosemary going on an errand at that time is silly. I'm just trying to remember what was in Terry's book. And I think he also made a big deal about the car and boat being left on the street and not in the driveway, as some posters have already mentioned.
>>>Johnny said: i am not saying Leno wanted to get the boat stolen.>>>
Johnny this is what you said, and I'm quoting you:
>>>I find it hard to believe that he would leave that car on the street. leaving the car with boat trailer attached is a real invitation for someone with a trailer hitch just to hook up your boat and go.>>>
This sounds like you thought he was trying to get someone to steal it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>>>Maybe they then used Rosemary's car to take a little trip down to the Gateway Market and empty the safe.>>>
Open the safe for WHOM????
You said "maybe THEY then used Rosemary's car".
Charlie Manson himself said that he told Leno he didn't want to go to the bank to get money or the supermarket to get money.
katie i said 'i find it hard to believe he lugged the skis up the driveway' when he could have just backed the car and boat up the driveway as was his habit.
i don't believe Leno would leave his car and boat out on the street. especially a new boat. hence, the introductory clause of 'i find it hard to believe.'
Per Shreck, his theory is that Tex and one of the Labianca's took a little trip out to Gateway Market to open up the safe. He bases this off of interviews and the fact that the safe at Gateway was empty on Monday morning.
>>>Johnny said: i said 'i find it hard to believe he lugged the skis up the driveway' when he could have just backed the car and boat up the driveway as was his habit.>>>
Then why did you mention the skis at all?
Johnny I'm gonna say this one more time. It's your quote:
>>>I find it hard to believe that he would leave that car on the street. leaving the car with boat trailer attached is a real invitation for someone with a trailer hitch just to hook up your boat and go.>>>
>>>Johnny said: i don't believe Leno would leave his car and boat out on the street. especially a new boat. hence, the introductory clause of 'i find it hard to believe.'>>>
So why did you say he wanted it stolen????
Johnny there's one thing you should know.
I don't leave and I don't ever agree unless you give proof.
>>>Johnny said: Per Shreck, his theory is that Tex and "one of the Labianca's"
(what do you mean "one of the LaBiancas"? I thought you said it was Rosemary. Changing your mind????)
took a little trip out to Gateway Market to open up the safe. He bases this off of interviews and the fact that the safe at Gateway was empty on Monday morning.>>>
That is so rich!!!
>>>He bases this off of interviews >>>>
With whom? Leslie, Pat, Tex, Charlie? Like they'd tell the truth. HA HA.
I'd like to meet this guy. Does he hand out candy? LOL
katie back up a minute and consider what is being said.
leno did do as he always did. he backed the car and boat up on the driveway.
LATER someone moved the car and boat back out on the street so as to get to rosemary's car. where they (i presume Tex and one of the LaBianca's) went -per Shreck- is out to Gateway market.
now with that part clear, go back and read what i wrote and it will become clearer.
hope that helps. :)
not asking you to believe any of it. just consider it.
I think sometimes we act like we know these people more than we actually do. To sit here and speak with such conviction about Leno Labianca's parking habits is a little silly. Yes, we've all heard that he usually parked the boat in the drive way, but just because the boat is parked on the street doesn't prove anything. You couldn't even consider it evidence. As far as Rosemary's reaction to Sharon Tate's murder goes, what was her reaction supposed to be? Can you elaborate on how unusual her reaction was? I mean, did she start crying out "We're next, we're next." This is a woman, a mother, living 15 miles away from the Tate house, and she has recently suspected that people have been entering her house. Her reaction, whatever it was, is evidence of nothing. Also, the idea of Rosemary leaving the house dressed that way is crazy.
Just going by the Watson Trial Testimony of the Newsman who sold the paper to the LaBianca's. He knew them both. He testified that she was extremely shocked. Speaking of Leno, he was a person of habit. That's why he stopped by his newstand at 1 am in the morning. As for parking his boat, that's what his step son Frank reported to police. Moreover, if at anytime you were to be careful about keeping a spendy toy like a boat safe it would be after just purchasing it. Why would he lug those skis up the long drive way when he could just back the boat up the drive way before off loading them? Oh well. Makes for interesting discussion.
I don't know that there's enough here for an interesting discussion. Not enough meat on the bone. The Family were petty criminals, drug addicts, they ate out of trash cans. Yet people want to turn the murders into something much bigger than they were. They turn them into drug burns and mob hits. Not likely.
revatron said... I don't know that there's enough here for an interesting discussion. Not enough meat on the bone. The Family were petty criminals, drug addicts, they ate out of trash cans. Yet people want to turn the murders into something much bigger than they were. They turn them into drug burns and mob hits. Not likely.
September 4, 2012 3:23 AM
that's the great thing about a thread, if you don't find enough to comment on then you move to another thread. folks do it all the time.
if you are still chewing on that Helter Skelter bone from 1971 then I can fully understand that you won't find enough meat to interest you.
Johnny, if Tex had taken Rosemary to Gateway to empty the safe, why is it that not ONE of the killers has ever mentioned it?? Ever. Not in books, not in interviews and not even in parole hearings.
Not Charlie, not Leslie, not Pat and not Tex.
They are more than happy to admit stabbing and mutilating Rosemary & Leno, rummaging thru the fridge, taking a shower. So why not mention the trip to empty the safe??
Revatron, awesome, great, totally sensible! I agree.
Katie, thanks for all the detail you posted earlier about the estate...looking forward to more, and studying it...but wanted to acknowledge that you posted that information, thank you!
The skis...maybe they forgot to take them? Maybe they hooked up the boat and took off and left the skis up against the garage...wouldn't be the first time anyone has done that...
Trailering a boat home late after a weekend on the lake can be exhausting. Maybe he was tired after the drive home, and said i'll just grab the skis and put the boat away in the morning.
We've done that ourselves, so maybe i'm letting my own experiences influence me...i just don't see it as evidence of anything.
Oh katie...quick mention, they're all such liars, so who knows really, but baby killer tex says in his 'die for me' book that Charlie went in the bedroom and returned with Rosemary in a dress over her nightgown. And the Emmons book has charlie going in the bedroom, nudging Rosemary 'wake up, you got company' and as rosemary tried to cover herself, charlie saw a dress folded over the chair and handed it to her to put on...nice of him, huh?
Still thinking about the boat on the street...you know, if the boat was 'brand new'...a meticulous habit of carefully putting it away couldn't have been too established.
I think too much is being made of the fact that Frank said it was unusual the boat was still on the street because his stepfather usually put it away. What could the experience with that have been? One or two times? A few?
Maybe if Charlie had been at Cielo Drive he would have allowed Gibby & Sharon the dignity of putting something on before slicing and dicing them.
Marliese, I really don't think that boat was so new. I'll have to go back to the Waverly police report. It talks about that boat and that it had a lien on it. When I get time I'll look.
I'm with you and have said many times previously, that maybe Leno was just dead tired and said "screw it, I'll put that thing up in the morning". It's pretty obvious he was tired if he fell asleep reading the horse results. LOL.
Johnny, what you've done is invited us to a party where there is nothing to do. It is not MY responsibility to find "meat" on this bone. You brought the theory up, so YOU provide the evidence. THAT would make for an interesting discussion. So far, Rosemary has been "extremely shocked" to hear about murder, and Leno didn't park his boat in the driveway? That wouldn't feed a fly.
Katie said>>>>with you and have said many times previously, that maybe Leno was just dead tired and said "screw it, I'll put that thing up in the morning". It's pretty obvious he was tired if he fell asleep reading the horse results. LOL<<<<<<
That is exactly how i feel, Katie. You know, every time we come through the five in the dark, on a late weekend night, I think of Leno and Rosemary pulling the boat home through there...just imagining them barreling through those dark hills home to their slaughter. Not a clue.
They would have come home 99 to Interstate Five...a lot of trucks, especially at night when it's pitch black, high up curves though the hills, scary, fast, dark. Can't imagine it was much different in 1969...Castaic Lake, Lake Pyramid, Isabella...so a lot of boats in the summer, probably a little less traffic then, and maybe not as many lanes. Still, it's logical knowing it was late, a weekend on the water, in the sun...Bakersfield is the closest place to hell on earth in August...they were tired, i'm sure. Rosemary took her clothes off and went to bed. Leno sat up to have a beer and read the horses, and fell asleep on the sofa.
n regards to Leno's new boat, evidently he had had boats before as that was his habit to back it up. according to the step son frank. i never met leno, so i can't speak to his habits but his step son frank evidently thought it was out of place. if you have an issue with that, take it up with frank. it is what frank told the police at the time. that his stepfather always put the boat away. now this was a new speedboat, the assumption is that it was a habit so that they had boats before. not an uncommon habit for folks who spend money and live in southern california.
in regards to backing it up the drive way, that isn't a big deal for someone accustomed to hauling a trailer around. not exhausting. i've had boats and trailers and once you learn how to back up with one it isn't that big a deal. especially a speed boat. what is a big deal is leaving a new boat out on the street where someone can hitch it up and go. especially a smaller boat like what leno had as opposed to some 30 foot cabin cruiser. speed boats on a trailer are not that hard to hook up and take off.
as to Revetron, why do you post on something that you are not interested in? it must be exhausting surfing the web to post on threads you have no interest in. i make the comment that it is an interesting discussion. if you don't find it interesting, do what mosts folks do. pass on. if you want to post to tell me my I am all wet then go for it. I always want to learn and am not locked in to a point of view.
clearly posting just to say you don't find it interesting is your prerogative. to each his own but it smacks of trollism.
by the way, this is the downside of the web. folks adopt a 'tude that they would never do one on one. how bout we just lighten up?
The topic isn't interesting considering the lack of evidence. I'm interested in pointing that out to you. I'm not stuck on any one theory, but I do stick with the evidence. You still haven't provided any. If you're holding out on info, this would be the time to share it. I'm all for thinking the two nights of murder could have been part of something big. If you provide something substantial, then this will be very, very interesting. No hard feelings, man. This theory is just weak the way it's been presented.
Why take anything up with Frank? I don't have an 'issue' with what he told the police, I have no misunderstanding and no dispute about what he told the police. And honestly, I think what Frank said to the police about the boat on the street is common knowledge to most of us that know the basics.
I think Leno was simply tired. It's a reasonable opinion. I think it is what it is...they probably took the skis out of the boat to 'lessen' the risk of theft, with Leno figuring he'd put the boat away in the morning. But, like you...i also didn't know leno, so that's just my opinion.
I've been around boats too. My whole life. And my husband and I have owned and trailered boats all over California...from Bass Lake to the Colorado River. Like you, I know how to back a boat in the water, how to park the trailer, how bring it up again and drive it home late at night, back it up a hill, and put it away. I simply believe Leno was tired...not an unreasonable belief.
And had he not been gutted on his living room floor, probably would have brought it up in the morning, and Frank would have known nothing about it being on the street. I don't think the boat on the street is evidence of anything.
All that aside, I don't think anyone needs experience maneuvering or traveling with a ski boat to offer an opinion on the boat being in the street, or any other matter about the murders.
So what if Frank said the boat was left at the curb and Leno never did that before?
Frank also said he thought it was strange that the shades were drawn because they'd never done that before either. Should we draw some miraculous theory from that too?
Marliese I agree I think Leno & Rosemary were both bushed.
I've been to Fresno, CA and it can get up to 114 degrees in August. And it's a stone's throw away from Bakersfield I'm pretty sure.
That kind of heat will wear you out. Driving in traffic on a Saturday night all the way back to LA. That's gotta be a killer.
It's probably not hard to back a trailer up a steep driveway if you're experienced, but it's just another job to do. If it's such a nice neighborhood, why worry about someone jacking it?
The reason why Katie is that because it is a well to do neighborhood bad folks like to cruise those areas and see if cars are unlocked or some easy pickings are readily available.
Okay, $5500 for a boat then is over $30k today. Very tempting toy to leave out on the street. Crooks are smart, they troll nice neighborhoods.
Just take a look at the ariel picture of the car and boat. Look at its location in relation to the retaining wall.
Ask yourself, do you lug the skis up that steep driveway or do as you alway do, put the boat in the driveway. You just got done driving over a hundred miles, you can't go another 90 feet? Why not put the car in the driveway and save yourself lugging those skis up the driveway?
Revetron, not to worry you have no words to eat. It's all opinion at this point.
It's also possible that Frank was not initially surprised by the boat parked on the street, but after finding his parents dead applied significance to it. It is my opinion that he was more suspicious of the shades being drawn than he was of the boat.
I'm not familiar with the ski story. I can't remember it from the police reports or anything, but there's plenty there to forget. I was just re reading the account of Frank's discovery in Helter Skelter. It says that Frank put his camping equipment away in the garage before he went to the back door of his house. It is possible that Frank is responsible for the skis return, IF (as Katie pointed out earlier) the skis were taken at all.
Sweet picture. It looks like the garage is open, and is that Rosemary's car sticking out of the garage? To my knowledge, Frank never said anything strange about the garage being open.
Johnny did you know that Leno kept that boat at his mother's house, not his? Don't you think for one minute that maybe he was tired and didn't feel like putting it there? Is it so hard to comprehend that after driving 4 hours to Lake Isabella, staying out in hot sun, and driving 4 hours back that he was just bone-tired and didn't want to mess with it?
And who knows if the skis were in it or not? Maybe they didn't take the skis. Maybe the skis were in the garage the whole time!
And as far as Tex taking Rosemary to Gateway to empty the safe, you didn't answer my question. Why has NO ONE mentioned it before Mr. Schreck did? Not one time! Don't you find that odd?
Do you think it's odd that a safe is empty in the morning? I've never owned a business, but I can't imagine leaving money in a safe or cash register overnight. I would take the deposit to the bank. I would think that any sane or sensible owner would.
That boat was purchased in August of 1968, a year before the murders. The price was $3,050.00. The loan was made thru Bank of America. The payments were $98.33/month for 36 months. Balance due at their deaths was $2,400,00 including interest.
The 2nd LaBianca homocide report can be found here:
I find being on Waverly very humbling...it makes me cry every time.
We were there last about three months ago...long time between visits, and even with all the changes, there is so much that takes your breath away. You can see the original concrete paths of the old driveway, for example...where the police officer stood across.
The roof tiles, the congestion of the road, and while the carport gobbles up the sweeping front lot, the house peaks over it, and is very recognizable...just makes me gasp. The front of the house is remarkably the same, no more aluminum awnings though. :)
When you're driving around there, it comes up quick...the road is surprisingly narrow and congested, and there is a tendency to pass it...we've done that anyway, but then you see the living room window reaching up over the view as you come around the curve, and it's 'stop the car, there it is!' Blows my mind every time.
Marliese I haven't been to Waverly. Every time I visited LA with my family they "poo pooed" the Manson sites and we bypassed them. Everyone in my family thought I was nuts to follow this case.
It was always met with "eewwwwwhhh".
I would love to visit that site. It's on my bucket list to do Scott Michael's tour.
And I will indeed.
I think tonight I'm more tired than Leno & Rosemary were on Sunday morning, August 10th.
I think I'll be in a coma in a few minutes. Not to awaken until 6am.
Sharron found a stray kitten the night before the murders she locked the dogs away some were else that night so the kitten could wonder around safely. Any other time the dogs would have been roaming as normal
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138 comments:
These are some great pix, thanks, I've never seen them, at least I don't remember them.
That last pic down looks very much like the old Chevy pickup my dad used to have. I remember latching those chain/hook type things to close the tailgate many times when I was a kid.
The Family are wearing woolhats. Musta been chily. The book "Desert Shadows" is about tha Barker raid. I love that book. Three days it took to round up Charlie's Family but when the cops were done Death Valley was free of hippie varmints. A funny part is when they caught Sadie who was supposed to be the lookout on top of a hill above Barkers. Sadie never saw a damn thing coming! LOL!
If Charlie had cut his hair the cops might have never caught him. That would be a real twist to this crazy saga if Manson were never caught and remained a desert hermit till this day.
These pics look like they were taken with an old 35 MM camera.
I think that rock has been by the pool since Michelle Morgan lived there.
Hey check this out. Some pics I haven't seen before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ore37SbVoQ4
Michelle is sitting on that rock by the pool. Either Michelle was an excellent decorator or she hired one. That was a beautiful home!
i wonder if that was the pool where 'pat' first met garretson...
For some reason, the dogs never attacked them. Go figure that one out.
makes one think that maybe those dogs were comfortable with 'em...
just a thought....
For me, this is the most compelling evidence that the killers and victims were familiar with each other.
A dog is very territorial and a dog bite and a dog attack are different things.
Moreover, a dog knows a scent of a person many yards away. Believe me, I have some expertise on this subject.
And I think the dog or dogs knew and trusted the killers.
it does add a common sense factor...
now here is the million dollar question: when steven parent showed up did the dogs go crazy?
or were they also comfortable with him.
Even the friendliest of dogs check everyone out, you pass the test or they start barking and backing up and raising hell.
It would seem it was a normal night and they knew everyone that entered the property. Or someone told them to shush, this is okay.
Those girls in the back of the pickup had coats on.
Come on now. The desert?
Here in October it's still a high of 80 degrees or higher. Sheeesh.
It's been 100 degrees here since August 1st. And it will continue because of the hurricane that hit Louisiana.
Anytime a hurricane hits them, it's hot and dry here.
Okay, enough with the weather channel, back to the dogs. LOL.
Is that a flute on that video? It's really getting on my nerves! HA HA
There was a lot of crabgrass in that yard back then. That Gardener wasn't doing his job. LOL.
Where was Rudy and his "boy"? HA HA.
Okay, okay, back to the dogs....I'm thru. LOL.
johnnyseattle said...
i wonder if that was the pool where 'pat' first met garretson
(end quote)
Poirot replies:
Maybe Pat Krenwinkle actually met Patty Montgomery who roomed with Garretson? It is at the guest house that Krenwinkle heard the name Patty Montgomery that's for sure. Garretson said years later that he met Krenwinkle. He denies it now.
How many dogs were there? Which house were they in? Who did they belong to? It seems I've heard Garretson mention a dog named "Christopher". I'm not an expert on dogs, but I've had a few, some dogs begin barking at the slightest disturbance, other dogs are "lazy" and could sleep through a tornado.
Apparently, Sharon Tate spent some of her last day feeding a small black stray kitten with an eyedropper. One site says the kitten was found wandering among the dead bodies.
If anyone hasn't seen it, there is a vid of the pet removal at Cielo, I'm guessing the film was made on Saturday, Aug. 9. The vid can be seen here.
Also, apparently, in the early 1990's the house was used as a recording studio by the musical group 9 inch nails. A pretty detailed tour of the property from this period can be seen here.
They apparently recorded at least one "music" video there, "Gave Up" (1992) featuring a young guitar player, (who else?) Marilyn Manson, can be seen here.
Sunset, this is what Garretson said on his polygraph test when asked about the dogs:
Q How many dogs?
A Two poodles and a weimaraner, or whatever you call.
I think Sharon had a dog too.
I don't think the dogs were loose to have been able to attack the killers. Sharon was caring for a young kitten she'd found...i think that comes from Roman's recollection of their phone conversation earlier in the day. And hasn't it been said that Sharon had put her little Prudence and Abigail's dalmatian puppy in the garage building that night...I think it was the kitten that had been wandering around the house and bodies when they were discovered. i think Debra may have said in an interview years later that Sharon had penned up the dogs to protect the kitten.
Anyway, a young Yorkie and a Dalmatian puppy would have been no match for Tex, i would imagine he'd have sent them flying...had they been around.
Rudy's dogs were not loose on the property for them to attack the killers either...they were in the guesthouse with whats his face. Didn't he say something somewhere about having to quiet them?
I am more puzzled about Leno and Rosemary's dogs. The side door off the dining room was open that night...not just unlocked, but open, I'm guessing because Leno likely had just let the dogs out into the fenced area on the side of the house and then went and sat on the sofa while they were out, dozed off, and that's when Charlie and Tex entered...through that door. I think it was Tex who said the door was open. Why didn't the dogs go crazy when the house was invaded?
Weren't Leno and Rosemary's dogs found inside the house? Hasn't leslie said they petted the dogs when they were in the kitchen raiding the fridge? That just doesn't make sense...i know our three dogs would never allow anyone in the house, let alone eat out of the fridge and accept petting from strangers with blood all over the place. They'd have torn those people to shreds, or been killed trying.
I've read that Rosemary said 'the dogs' are sometimes in the house when they should be out, when they'd been away. But was there just one dog there at the time of the murders? Or two? Can't remember. We've heard so much over years of researching and talking, it's hard to recall details sometimes! I think there is somewhat of an explanation for the Cielo dogs...they were penned up, and Rudy's were in the guesthouse, but the Labianca dog or dogs, were around...
Unless they were just so spooked...i don't know.
Instinctually, dogs respond to excitement and violence. They won't sit there and watch it happen.
My argument would be that the people who came in the house, either night, knew the dogs and were able to calm them.
Hi Marliese! Good to see you!
I've read so much about these dogs that I really don't know where they were. So many different accounts.
Sadie made the comment while in jail that one of the dogs from the guest house came in the main house and stole her knife. Oh brother. Most of what Sadie said is pure nonsense.
Tom, interesting theory, but how would the killers know these dogs?
Because they swam at the house or partied at the house or got to know the people next door and made friends with the dogs.
I know dogs that would have half of your ass in their jaws, if you cut up a screen and came in a window.
Hi Marliese!!!!
i know dogs that would do the same...if someone tore off a screen and came in the house. But there weren't dogs were in the Cielo house when that was done.
And Rudy's dogs were not running loose on the property.
The only thing there is...is that Rudy's dogs had to be quieted. There may be more there with Rudy's dogs, who knows. The people that would know are crazy liars about everything else, so why would what they say about the dogs be reliable.
Sharon's Yorkie and Abigail's puppy were supposedly penned up in the garage area.
Prudence would have been quickly kicked in the mouth, or worse, had she been yapping at Tex as he came in the screen and through the house. But she wasn't there.
Hi Katie and Lynyrd :)
Marliese I agree. I wouldn't put any stock in anything the killers said about petting the dogs, etc. Their stories change every time they tell it. They can't even agree with each other on what happened at the murders.
Tom, I've been at parties that had dogs next door and I didn't know them and they didn't know me.
Hey Johnny, what does Schreck say about Charlie going to the La Bianca house?
And does he mention anything about the dogs?
TomG said...
Instinctually, dogs respond to excitement and violence. They won't sit there and watch it happen.
My argument would be that the people who came in the house, either night, knew the dogs and were able to calm them.
September 1, 2012 1:57 PM
spot on, Tom. either that or the Manson clan were the original 'dog whisperers.'
katie8753 said...
Hey Johnny, what does Schreck say about Charlie going to the La Bianca house?
And does he mention anything about the dogs?
September 1, 2012 6:12 PM
In broad strokes, Shreck leans towards the theory that folks were expected that night and the LaBianca's were waiting for them.
>>>Johnny said: In broad strokes, Shreck leans towards the theory that folks were expected that night and the LaBianca's were waiting for them.>>>
Really. And what were they waiting on them to do? What was the purpose of this meeting?
Hey Bobby, the Sunshine Carpet Cult was on Seinfeld tonight. HA HA.
George: Well, they didn't try to induct me.
Jerry: They didn't?
George: No, all they did was clean the carpets. What kind of a snobby, stuck-up cult is this?
Jerry: Well, maybe they thought you were too smart to be brainwashed.
George. No....
Jerry: Well....maybe they thought you were too dumb?
HA HA HA
The boy in Deliverance playing "Dueling Banjos".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Redden
Billy wasn't playing the banjo during that sequence. Mike Addis, a local banjo player, was playing behind him with his hands on the banjo. Billy had his hands behind his back.
Here is the sequence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE
This movie is one of the classics!!! :)
Hey Lynyrd, what's the difference between playing a banjo and playing guitar?
I know they have to be very different.
Hey Mr. P., you'll like this one.
Now they think Jeffrey MacDonald is innocent and the girl in the floppy hat was there during the killings. check it out:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444508504577595580041427656.html
I wonder why Schreck thought that Charlie and the LaBiancas were meeting about something.
Johnny didn't answer.
I wonder why Charlie took hours driving aimlessly and suddenly bee-lined to the house.
I wonder why they had a meeting around 2:00am. This is around the time the LaBiancas got home. It's documented.
I wonder why Rosemary was stabbed 51 times. I wonder why Leno had WAR carved in his abdomen and had a knife stuck in his neck.
I wonder why Charlie sent Pat, Tex & Leslie in and not Susan, Clem or Linda.
What kind of meeting could it have been? Not a very nice one. LOL
I just wonder.....
Katie said:
"Hey Lynyrd, what's the difference between playing a banjo and playing guitar?"
I'm by no means an expert regarding the banjo... or even a novice, for that matter.
But... here's a couple more obvious differences:
#1) Generally speaking, most bluegarss and country style banjos sport 5 strings.
Four and six string banjos do exist... but, they're not the norm.
A banjo is primarily a 5-string instrument.
A guitar on the other hand, is a 6-string instrument.
(I hasten to add... there are also variations here... such as 12-string guitars, etc)
But for all intents and purposes... you're looking at 5 strings on a banjo, versus 6 strings on a guitar.
'Nuff said.
#2) A guitar can be strummed OR individual notes can be picked.
To my knowledge... no one ever strums a banjo.
A banjo is primarily (if not exclusively) picked.
#3) The two instruments are generally tuned differently.
"Standard tuning" for a guitar is EADGBE for the six strings, respectively.
A banjo is tuned differently.
Although...
I hasten to add (again), that both guitars and banjos can be tuned many different ways.
"Drop D" tuning... and "Open G" tuning are very popular on guitar.
(I'm pretty sure Keith Richards used "Open G" frequently).
All that being said... the "standard" tuning for a guitar and banjo, ("off the shelf", as it were) are different.
Wow, Lynyrd you blow me away as usual!!
I do know the difference between a harpsichord, a clavichord and a piano.
One plucks and the other hammers.
One has white over black and the other has black over white.
I enjoy talking music with you. I took 5 years of piano music lessons and 5 years of theory, and you know just as much as I do.
I'm in awe of you.
Nighty night!! :)
But what has that to do with the price of tomatos?
Mr. P. I already asked questions of you and others, and you didn't answer.
There are not answers.
Blahhh.
Tonight is gonna be a GOOD night for me. And nobody can change it.
Spritzzzzz!!! HA HA.
Isn't Shreck a purple ogre?
Anyway I'm thinking that Mr. Schrek can't answer my question about the meeting with the LaBiancas.
that's okay.
So what?
Neither can the others. HA HA.
Night.
Can't you see it now...a meeting at 2:00 a.m. They were so expecting company that Rosemary was in bed asleep, and Leno was in his jammies on the sofa.
Yes Marliese, Rosemary and Leno were in their jammies, ready for beddy-bye and supposedly they're having a meeting?
Pfffttt..
If I'm having a meeting about stuff it's gonna be @ 2am with a bunch of hippies??
NOT!
HAHA
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I had hoped that Johnny would explain, but I guess he's too embarrassed.
BTW, I don't think Rosemary made $2,000,000 either but I have a new theory.
Thanks Marliese!!!
why would i be embarrassed to relate what Shreck is putting forth?
sorry i didn't run back here to post the rest of the story. when i did come back I was using a device in which typing is a pain or when i did have my computer i just got called away. given that, you'll have to forgive me I didn't drop everything to type in multiple pages in to the comment box. frankly, i didn't feel any real obligation as there is a book which is easily obtainable that outlines all of it. and just to repeat, like i said i was giving you the broad strokes.
the difficulty in putting it down is that there is a lot of detail and support that gets you to the point in which you can intelligently assess what he is putting forth. without putting it all down so someone can make a reasonable assessment -and not some half ass comment reflecting ignorance- it defeats the purpose and takes away from what Shreck is putting out there.
i think what is embarrassing is someone who has followed the case for 40 years and thinks Leno and Rosemary were Ozzie and Harriet Nelson. after all, Ozzie and Harriet probably didn't have their phone lines tapped. Ozzie probably wasn't subject to a $400 a day gambling addiction or about to be canned that very Monday morning by his own Mother for stealing. Nor had Ozzie been a Board Member of a mob run Bank. As for Harriet, I'll leave that be for now.
the key to the Shreck book is to actually read it rather than teeing off on something here or there. it boggles the mind that for folks who follow the case for the last 40 years and roam the internet to read/post on the case can't get it together to spend the sheckles to get the book. for someone who has a casual interest, i get it that the cost is a little steep and would not recommend they get the book. but for someone who wears it on their sleeve that they been following the case for 40 years, roams the net everyday to discuss the case and all that, the book is essential. much like Helter Skelter is essential. and if you don't get that, that's embarrassing.
hey all, don't forget tonight to come over to brian's show. we can talk then, Katie.
and Katie if i am tardy, it doesn't mean i am embarrassed. rather I just got home from the mountain a little late.
take care
Johnny, thanks.
I know that Rosemary & Leno weren't "Ozzie & Harriet". Far from it. But that doesn't make them "FOC's" (friends of Charlie's).
I've read the 2nd LaBianca report and I know that Rosemary was quite the "tomato".
I have my own opinion(s) of this $2M that Rosemary supposedly had at her death. I, like you, don't have time to go into now. I will later.
I guess I will spend the cash to get this book. Then I will be more at an advantage to discuss it.
Johnny, if we disagree about this book, it doesn't mean I have anything against you at all. Please understand that. :)
I will certainly be at the radio show tonight!
Cheers!!:)
Anyone with half a brain knows that Leno was not Ozzie Nelson. And yes, i've read the second police report...the one that details Rosemary's sex life...who cares. None of the people she had any kind of sex with caused her death.
I think most of us on the blogs understand that Leno was in trouble. He liked the horses, he gambled, embezzled from his family's grocery business etc etc...he was in trouble.
I know of no evidence that credibly supports the idea that Rosemary, as some imply, was a drug dealer. Other than some unsubstantiated nonsense about smuggling drugs on wigs or accessories coming into her shop.
I don't know how the court came up with a value of two million dollars for her estate....maybe there was somewhere near there on the books somehow, and when all was liquidated and debts paid, maybe it ended up being far less. I don't know. None of us know. But it's not unusual to look better on paper than when all is said and done.
Call me naive, but i would like to believe she was a loving, hardworking woman. Determined not to be poor...she grew up a poor orphan no one wanted. She did work hard certainly...a successful mobile clothing business was innovative in the 1960's...she opened a retail store, she apparently sold real estate...or at least earned a real estate license, it's said she invested in the stock market...I don't know, and i doubt she gave Leno any of her hard earned money to pay off his bad habits and poor judgment.
My questions about her supposed wealth center around the fact that she didn't live lavishly...they gave up the big house they couldn't afford etc. and it would seem...again, we don't know, that her two children didn't each inherit a million dollars.
Maybe Schreck's book will one day be the definitive TLB book, i don't know, but I'm not interested in spending that kind of money for a book with a sociopath as the likely primary source.
I'd pay good money to somehow hear the truth out of Tex Watson though...but that's impossible....
hey Katie
not to worry, we'll always be cool.
i like folks that disagree without being disagreeable.
we have absolutely no problems between us.
see ya tonight. BTW, tonight is the night that the King of the Ring aka Chris will be on.
look at it this way regarding Shreck's book, for a mere $64 you are getting over 30 years of serious research into this case. some of it may be stuff you will agree with and some of it may be stuff you go WTF?--I need more support for that.
clearly Shreck is not doing this to make big bucks. otherwise he would have taken it to a publisher that would have made him clip down to about 400 pages. by doing it this way, Shreck is getting the word out on his terms.
Marlise
I don't know, the way you write that you make it seem that she was living in some low end tract house. Her neighbor was Troy Donahue. He lived about two houses down from her. BTW, Troy knew Charlie.
Does it matter to you that Doris Tate, who thought long and hard about this case, never went for the Helter Skelter theory? Moreover, the week before she died Sharon told Doris that she wanted Abrigail and Frykowski out of the house. I wonder why....
Thanks Johnny. See you soon on SCR. Looking forward to hearing Chris again. :)
Marliese I have a feeling that Rosemary kept her money completely separate from Leno and she probably hid her purse at night. LOL.
I agree, I just picture her as a hard working woman who was trying to succeed. I think she just wanted to make enough to be out of that house and somewhere else. She didn't like living there.
Rosemay may very well have been a hard working lady. But lets get real about how much a dress shop in a strip mall is gonna bring in and lets really get real about those savant stock market trades she is supposed to have made.
IF she really did legally pull those off then there will be a written record vis a vi tax returns, etc. Moreover, why was it that folks were surprised that she had amassed so much money in such a short period of time?
Just asking....
>>>Johnny said: Rosemay may very well have been a hard working lady. But lets get real about how much a dress shop in a strip mall is gonna bring in>>>
Let me say first of all that I don't think Rosemary's estate was $2 million. I don't know where that figure came from. The Press?
I think this clothing that Rosemary was selling was designer clothing, which would bring a pretty penny. It wasn't a bunch of cheap rags like "Ross Dress For Less".
>>>and lets really get real about those savant stock market trades she is supposed to have made.>>>
I think she made investments in "safe stocks". When you invest in the stock market you can choose a "wild card" or safe stocks that will add to your dividends slowly. I think she made that choice.
>>>IF she really did legally pull those off then there will be a written record vis a vi tax returns, etc. Moreover, why was it that folks were surprised that she had amassed so much money in such a short period of time?
Just asking....>>>
Good questions.
Again, I don't think she amassed that much money. I'm not sure where that figure came from.
The press can exaggerate anything.
As far as the claim the Rosemary was selling drugs from "wigs from Mexico", this is insane. (1) I've not read anywhere that she sold wigs. (2) there is no indication in any police report that she was selling drugs (3) there were no drugs found at the LaBianca house.
I would think a drug dealer would have some type of paraphernalia in house.
Same goes for Gary Hinman. Not one shred of evidence that he was manufacturing drugs.
I have to go on the evidence...not innuendo.
Also, the intimation that Tex & Jay knew each other because of the "wigs" is preposterous.
Jay didn't sell wigs that I know of.
Whether or not there there really was two million dollars has been questioned for years, so maybe you know? Just asking...
All i've read is what has appeared on the blogs...that in the aftermath of the murders, a newspaper article reported she was worth two million dollars when she was killed, and that a judge had appointed her daughter executor of the estate, and that details were not released 'in open court.'
I don't know how her estate was valued at two million dollars, does anyone?
I understand Truth on Tate LaBianca is scanning some documents that might get to the truth of the matter, and that will be very interesting.
Great post, Katie. The only place i've ever seen anything about Rosemary Labianca being a drug dealer is from people on the blogs...i don't think there is any proof or substantiated evidence that Rosemary was dealing drugs.
It will be interesting...if it's ever finally determined whether or not there really was two million dollars.
I agree with you, Katie...doubting there really was, two million dollars, and i don't know who, how, what came up with the figure, or how the value of the estate was determined...
Hi Marliese. I've been reading thru some of those probate documents and so far they haven't uncovered anywhere NEAR $2 million.
In fact, if I'm reading this stuff correctly, Leno's creditors are trying to attach a judgement against Rosemary's estate to satisfy his debts. I'm assuming they can do that since they were married. So I guess unless you have a pre-nup or some type of legal document barring your spouse from collecting, your spouse's gargantuan debt can hamper your inheritance to your children.
It looks like Leno's mother sold that house for little or nothing to pay Leno's outstanding debts.
Rosemary had some stock in the grocery store, and also seemed to own other property which was foreclosed on.
Leno owed Summit Finance Corporation around $370,000, which they tried to collect from Rosemary's stash.
I think $60,000 of this was an insurance policy. The rest of it is penny ante.
I don't know where the $2 million came from.
So if Leno owed $370,000 to a finance company, PLUS owed $500,000 in gambling debts, he was WAY over his head!!!!
I don't think Rosemary had the funds to pay all this off.
BTW, if you read the LaBianca police report, you'll find that nothing they had was paid for.
They still owed on the house (around $42,000), the boat (around $3500) and the T-Bird I think.
So it's not like Rosemary was a high roller throwing cash around.
If you have that kind of cash, you don't rack up that much credit debt. Doesn't make sense.
Also, if Leno owed money to the "underworld" for gambling, there wouldn't be a judgement for that in the legal system.
rosemary probably didn't want to pay off leno's debts unless she had to. she was aware that giving him cash was just gonna fly into the hands of some bookie.
plus, she may not have been aware of the extent of leno's debts. many spouses -esp back then- would be incurring debts without their better half's knowing about it.
third, the market was just not that dynamic back then. when you try to make money on trades you may get lucky once in awhile, but to be good at it you have to have some real insight and understanding of the market. and info back then wasn't as readily available as it is now.
designer dresses are one thing, but if the latest 'rosemary labianca' dress was bringing in serious coin i would be surprised.
That's my point Johnny. I don't think Rosemary had that much money.
I think she had just enough squirreled away that made her feel comfortable.
She may not have known about Leno's debts, and you're right, she wouldn't have handed cash to him. She might have just as well flushed it down the toilet. The guy was a loser when it came to money matters. He had a gambling addiction.
Okay I'm headed to the house for the night. We'll talk tomorrow. :)
At the time, LAPD would have examined her financial situation along with Leno's. Rosemary having a large amount of money doesn't help the Helter Skelter theory, ie ordinary couple picked out at random, yet Vincent Bugliosi in his book notes that everyone was surprised at the amount of money Rosemary had accrued from shrewd trades and her clothing shop.
I don't know what Bugliosi is basing that on, but he did put that in his book. He did have access to the LAPD reports, etc.
On page 77, in the online edition I looked at it says that according to Ruth Stivik her partner that Rosemary had a good head for business and it specifically states that when the estate went for probate it was worth $2.6 million.
Now I have issues with Bugliosi but he didn't need to put that factoid in the book but he did include it. It doesn't help the Helter Skelter theory per se. Bugliosi tends to be careful with the facts that he includes (it is the facts that he doesn't include I have issues with) so I am going to tend to believe that the probate records will reveal that Bugliosi had a strong basis for including that in the book. (I don't think he corrected that in subsequent editions).
Of course, I don't have the probate records or the tax returns, etc.
$2.6 million then would be about $15 million today.
She got that from shrewd trades and a partnership interest in a strip mall clothing store... I am gonna call BS on that. And if she was making serious coin illegally -and that amount would be considered serious coin- then she would have to be taking some serious risks to get it. Which would explain her over reaction from finding out from the newspaper seller that the Tate residence had been the seen of a gruesome murder. The newspaper seller says that her reaction was more than would be expected.
Bugliosi tends to be careful with facts that he does include in his book. Unless he changed that $2.6 million in subsequent editions, and I don't think he did, then I am going with him having a solid foundation for quoting that figure.
Johnny, you're right. Bugliosi does say that her estate was worth $2.6 million. I have no idea where he got that number.
But let's think about it. If Rosemary did have that kind of money (which I don't think she did), why not use it to be out of debt and be comfortable? I can understand her not wanting to put good money after bad bailing Leno out of debt, but being married to him made that debt hers as well. If nothing else, why not just divorce him and be done with it.
They moved out of a big "Disney Mansion" to move into the little bungalow on Waverly Drive, supposedly because they couldn't afford to live there anymore. If she had this much money, why not just pay cash for it?
They still owed quite a bit on the Waverly Drive house and they owed on the boat. Wouldn't it make more sense that those items would be paid off if she was that rich?
She hated living in that house on Waverly Drive because she complained that they had been burgled several times and she didn't feel safe. The house next door was a rent house and as such was housing people like Harold True and all his rabble rousers. Why endure that if you don't have to?? It doesn't make any sense!!
First of all, Waverly wasn't a hell hole. It was a pretty nice neighborhood (next door she had actor Troy Donahue and he was still a 'name' at the time) probably considered upper middle class. Harold True was gone at that point. The lots are fairly big so it wasn't like people were right on top of each other.
Here is a consideration: she may not have told Leno that she had all that money. she may have known that if she told Leno that she had that dough he would have treated that as he did the money from his family's Gateway Supermarket.
She may have been putting that money together as a private stash once her youngest -Frank- was old enough to be out on her own. Maybe she didn't want to move Frank out to another neighborhood, changing schools while he was in high school, etc. A mother will endure quite a bit for the sake of her son. She probably viewed it as a bit of stability for 3 more years until Frank went off to college or the military.
Lets not forget, she came from tough circumstances and knew what it was like to struggle. Many times those types of people know how to accrue money but are reluctant to spend it. The security of having the money in itself is what you want.
But who knows, it was a point in time. She didn't expect to die that day and maybe she would have moved 6 months later.
I know folks that stay in a home that they could afford to move out of for other reasons. My 'guess' is that it had something to do with not wanting to uproot her son and the realization that even $2.6 million wouldn't last long with Leno. So she let him handle 'the money' ie run up his bills but kept her stash secret and separate. If Leno knew she had that much, don't you think he would have raided that stash in the same manner he stole from his mother?
As to where Bugliosi got the number $2.6 million, I think he got it from the probate records. As the DA, he would have access to the LaBianca's financial information.
I can't stress this enough. While I think that there are facts that Bugliosi did not put in Helter Skelter, this is a fact that he felt confident on. Confident enough that he has never changed it in later reprint editions.
Until I see the actual probate records I am going to go with the amount he lists. It doesn't help his Helter Skelter theory at all so the fact he lists it gives me some confidence it wasn't meant to twist the case in that direction.
I know Harold True was gone but that house was still a rent house. Alice LaBianca said that Leno had run-ins with the tenants about their loud drug-fueled parties. Even with big lots you can hear a loud party. I know that from experience.
Question: How does Rosemary having a lot of money not help Bugliosi's Helter Skelter theory. Wasn't it all about killing rich piggies?
yeah, the helter skelter theory was about rich piggies but no one expected rosemary to be THAT rich.
it is an amount that is unexpected given her likely income stream. any questions into that may ask the 'why' which if you looked at her income tax returns and business financial statements may show that it wouldn't support a legitimate accrual of $2.6 million (1960's).
when you figure out that she couldn't have come across it legitimately it then begs the question, 'how' which leads into some uncomfortable areas.
so much much better for the Helter Skelter theory to have her with say a $200 thousand estate. still substantial but not as likely to raise eyebrows.
when i say THAT rich I mean worth 5 times what Abrigail was worth. If they said Abrigail Folger was worth $2.6 million no one bats an eyelash.
that Rosemary LaBianca with her reputed 'shrewd trades' and half interest in a strip mall clothing store accrued close to $15 million in todays dollars within a decade that makes you wonder 'WTF' given what she was working with.
that Rosemary Labianca was a smart lady I have no doubt. that she herself was modest in spending her money I can go with. that she was taking some risks to get that kind of cash accrual i also have no doubt.
I don't take away from the millionaire next door syndrome to some extent. the ones i know are frugal with their spending (and don't have spouses with $550 a day gambling habits) and it takes decades (not just one) for this to occur.
in my world, i've done a lot of financial statement analysis of various businesses. it would take a lot to accrue what she did adjusted for 2012 dollars in such a short time. (ten years).
not saying it is impossible, just saying highly unlikely given what she started with (single mom with two kids) then married to a hubby with a huge gambling jones around his neck.
Johnny, assuming Rosemary did have $2.6 million at the time of her murder, how do you think she earned it if not in the dress shop or stock market?
i don't think it was obtained legally.
but her tax returns would answer that question.
that would all be reportable income.
if legal. (actually, you are also suppose to report illegal income...'as if' eh?)
---------------
Shreck lays out a case that she was involved as a front for illegal money laundering activities and also involved with drug distribution.
recall her reaction when she learned of the Tate murders. the newsman said it was much more severe than he would have expected over a crime involving someone she had no connection with.
i don't think it was obtained legally.
but her tax returns would answer that question.
that would all be reportable income.
if legal. (actually, you are also suppose to report illegal income...'as if' eh?)
---------------
Shreck lays out a case that she was involved as a front for illegal money laundering activities and also involved with drug distribution.
recall her reaction when she learned of the Tate murders. the newsman said it was much more severe than he would have expected over a crime involving someone she had no connection with.
----------
hey, this not proving you are a robot thingie is getting harder and harder for me. LMAO
just to clariify my last comment.
if she was making the money legally, she would be reporting a substantial amount of it if not all of it on her tax returns. that is if it was legal.
the comment about illegal income being reportable/taxable is also true. for example, al capone got nabbed on failure to report income from his criminal enterprises. however, i would not expect her to be reporting illegal income on her tax returns.
I watched the Cielo house video linked to by Sunset77. Thanks, Sunset. What a beautiful house before it was torn down. So charming. No wonder it was love at first sight for Sharon.
I've seen crime scene photos of Rosemary and she had a dress over her nightgown. I remember Maury Terry, in his book, gives a long explanation for this and it had something to do (I think) with Rosemary planning on going out to run a nefarious errand. Does anyone know why Rosemary wore a dress over her nightie? Did the killers force her to put it on?
Johnny, as far as Rosemary's reaction to the Tate murders, I remember Saturday August 9, 1969 very well and how shocked and scared I was at the news report on TV about the Cielo Drive murders. I lived 1500 miles away. I can't blame Rosemary one bit for being upset about such a brutal murder that only happened about 10 miles away from her.
As far as Rosemary being a drug dealer, I just don't buy that. Unless someone can come up with some hard evidence that she was, I don't believe it.
As far as Rosemary using that dress shop as a front for money laundering, if she's not selling drugs, what money is she laundering? And if she's laundering money for someone else...who? And also, wouldn't her partner be aware of it?
Johnny, if you're tired of that robot stuff, you can e-mail Lynyrd to send you an invitation to join the blog. Then all you have to do is sign in and you won't have to type that stupid word. :)
Sorry that comment posted twice. LOL.
Carol, Charlie said somewhere that when Tex went into the bedroom to get Rosemary, since she was only wearing a gown, he allowed her to put a dress on top of it. Nice guy, huh?
Katie, yeah, Tex was the gentleman, wasn't he? I wish I still had Terry's book so I could look this up again. In fact, I seem to remember someone posting that part of Terry's book. Terry's explanation for the nightie/dress made sense; but only if you believed Rosemary was doing something illegal.
Carol, from what I've read, Rosemary was in bed in her nightgown either asleep or almost asleep when Charlie skunked into the house. I don't think she was going to run any errands.
They had just gotten home from an almost 4 hour ride from Lake Isabella, it was around 2am and I doubt that she would come home, put on her nightgown, then throw a dress on top of that to run a nefarious errand.
If she had errands to run, I would think she would run them before she put on her nightgown.
BTW, that was so touching how the killers left her nightgown and dress pulled up to show her butt with puncture wounds.
Nice touch Leslie, Pat & Tex.
Kinda like carving W-A-R in Leno's abdomen, leaving a knife in his neck and a carving fork in his stomach.
unless the 'errands' were a last minute situation for Rosemary.
did you ever wonder why Leno who would always back his boat up the drive way left his car and valuable brand new boat out on the street? some of the items from the boat were removed like skis were placed behind the house almost as if at one point he had backed the boat up the driveway removed the skis.
i find it hard to believe that he would lug those skis all the way up the driveway when he could have just backed up the car. Leno was an experienced fellow hauling a trailer so backing up wasn't a big deal for him.
I find it hard to believe that he would leave that car on the street. leaving the car with boat trailer attached is a real invitation for someone with a trailer hitch just to hook up your boat and go.
Johnny, if Leno wanted someone to steal the boat why not just leave it at Lake Isabella with the keys in it? Why drive 4 hours one way (8 hours total) to lug it back, only to leave it in the street for some guy with a hitch to steal it?
Why take out the skis? Skis are a dime a dozen. Were they hand-made slolams? How do you know the skis were in the boat? Maybe they didn't take the skis to the lake.
And what last minute situation for Rosemary could it have been?
There were no cell phones back then. Are there phone records placing a call to Waverly Drive between 1:30am and 2:00am?
The timing is off. How could Rosemary have had time to run an errand after they returned home that night? And why would she throw a dress on over a nightgown? Why not get re-dressed??
Doesn't make sense.
I mean come on, they paid around $5,500 for the boat, and they still owed around $3,900. What benefit do they get if it's stolen?
They still owe the $3,900. Fair Market Value on that boat, used, would probably be around $4,000 or less. So they have $100.00 after they pay the balance?
It doesn't make any sense to get someone to steal the boat.
katie
i am not saying Leno wanted to get the boat stolen.
I am saying that it was his habit to put the boat away in the driveway. In the morning when Frank showed up the car and boat was in the road adjacent to his house. Something that Leno would not do. Frank said he was surprised to see the car and boat out on the street.
Maybe the car and boat were backed up the driveway as was Leno's habit. Maybe subsequently the car and boat were moved by someone else. Maybe they then used Rosemary's car to take a little trip down to the Gateway Market and empty the safe. Just a thought that Shreck follows. Of course, he offers more support to get you to that point.
Katie, I agree that Rosemary going on an errand at that time is silly. I'm just trying to remember what was in Terry's book. And I think he also made a big deal about the car and boat being left on the street and not in the driveway, as some posters have already mentioned.
>>>Johnny said: i am not saying Leno wanted to get the boat stolen.>>>
Johnny this is what you said, and I'm quoting you:
>>>I find it hard to believe that he would leave that car on the street. leaving the car with boat trailer attached is a real invitation for someone with a trailer hitch just to hook up your boat and go.>>>
This sounds like you thought he was trying to get someone to steal it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>>>Maybe they then used Rosemary's car to take a little trip down to the Gateway Market and empty the safe.>>>
Open the safe for WHOM????
You said "maybe THEY then used Rosemary's car".
Charlie Manson himself said that he told Leno he didn't want to go to the bank to get money or the supermarket to get money.
So where is this coming from?
And what about the skis?
You said that he lugged them up the driveway to save them.
Why?
Were they that valuable? How much did they cost?
katie
i said 'i find it hard to believe he lugged the skis up the driveway' when he could have just backed the car and boat up the driveway as was his habit.
i don't believe Leno would leave his car and boat out on the street. especially a new boat.
hence, the introductory clause of 'i find it hard to believe.'
Per Shreck, his theory is that Tex and one of the Labianca's took a little trip out to Gateway Market to open up the safe. He bases this off of interviews and the fact that the safe at Gateway was empty on Monday morning.
>>>Johnny said: i said 'i find it hard to believe he lugged the skis up the driveway' when he could have just backed the car and boat up the driveway as was his habit.>>>
Then why did you mention the skis at all?
Johnny I'm gonna say this one more time. It's your quote:
>>>I find it hard to believe that he would leave that car on the street. leaving the car with boat trailer attached is a real invitation for someone with a trailer hitch just to hook up your boat and go.>>>
>>>Johnny said: i don't believe Leno would leave his car and boat out on the street. especially a new boat.
hence, the introductory clause of 'i find it hard to believe.'>>>
So why did you say he wanted it stolen????
Johnny there's one thing you should know.
I don't leave and I don't ever agree unless you give proof.
Skoal!!!
>>>Johnny said: Per Shreck, his theory is that Tex and "one of the Labianca's"
(what do you mean "one of the LaBiancas"? I thought you said it was Rosemary. Changing your mind????)
took a little trip out to Gateway Market to open up the safe. He bases this off of interviews and the fact that the safe at Gateway was empty on Monday morning.>>>
That is so rich!!!
>>>He bases this off of interviews >>>>
With whom? Leslie, Pat, Tex, Charlie? Like they'd tell the truth. HA HA.
I'd like to meet this guy. Does he hand out candy? LOL
If he does hand out candy as a reward, I like chocolates...with peanut nugat.
Remember that! LOL
katie
back up a minute and consider what is being said.
leno did do as he always did. he backed the car and boat up on the driveway.
LATER someone moved the car and boat back out on the street so as to get to rosemary's car. where they (i presume Tex and one of the LaBianca's) went -per Shreck- is out to Gateway market.
now with that part clear, go back and read what i wrote and it will become clearer.
hope that helps. :)
not asking you to believe any of it. just consider it.
Well Secretariat won by 27 lengths again.
that horse. HA HA.
Made me cry again.
Well real winners make me cry.
Sigh.......
katie
who cares if we agree.
just don't be a bore.
I just want to be post #100. LOL
damn you Lynard...
Carry-on guys... LOL
>>>Johnny said: katie
who cares if we agree.
just don't be a bore.>>>
Not sure what that means. I thought I made myself clear about the boat. HA HA.
That Secretariat. Boy what a winner!!! I love that boy!!!!
Sweeeettttttt Boy!!!!!!!
HA HA HA.
Sorry I defer to Secretariat, but that horse is a winner. Have you seen his Belmont win? I AM Secretariat! No one has ever beat him!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoFquax2F-k
Anyway, I'm going to bed.
I think sometimes we act like we know these people more than we actually do. To sit here and speak with such conviction about Leno Labianca's parking habits is a little silly. Yes, we've all heard that he usually parked the boat in the drive way, but just because the boat is parked on the street doesn't prove anything. You couldn't even consider it evidence.
As far as Rosemary's reaction to Sharon Tate's murder goes, what was her reaction supposed to be? Can you elaborate on how unusual her reaction was? I mean, did she start crying out "We're next, we're next." This is a woman, a mother, living 15 miles away from the Tate house, and she has recently suspected that people have been entering her house. Her reaction, whatever it was, is evidence of nothing.
Also, the idea of Rosemary leaving the house dressed that way is crazy.
Just going by the Watson Trial Testimony of the Newsman who sold the paper to the LaBianca's.
He knew them both. He testified that she was extremely shocked.
Speaking of Leno, he was a person of habit. That's why he stopped by his newstand at 1 am in the morning.
As for parking his boat, that's what his step son Frank reported to police. Moreover, if at anytime you were to be careful about keeping a spendy toy like a boat safe it would be after just purchasing it.
Why would he lug those skis up the long drive way when he could just back the boat up the drive way before off loading them?
Oh well. Makes for interesting discussion.
I don't know that there's enough here for an interesting discussion. Not enough meat on the bone.
The Family were petty criminals, drug addicts, they ate out of trash cans. Yet people want to turn the murders into something much bigger than they were. They turn them into drug burns and mob hits.
Not likely.
revatron said...
I don't know that there's enough here for an interesting discussion. Not enough meat on the bone.
The Family were petty criminals, drug addicts, they ate out of trash cans. Yet people want to turn the murders into something much bigger than they were. They turn them into drug burns and mob hits.
Not likely.
September 4, 2012 3:23 AM
that's the great thing about a thread, if you don't find enough to comment on then you move to another thread. folks do it all the time.
if you are still chewing on that Helter Skelter bone from 1971 then I can fully understand that you won't find enough meat to interest you.
cheers.
Johnny, if Tex had taken Rosemary to Gateway to empty the safe, why is it that not ONE of the killers has ever mentioned it?? Ever. Not in books, not in interviews and not even in parole hearings.
Not Charlie, not Leslie, not Pat and not Tex.
They are more than happy to admit stabbing and mutilating Rosemary & Leno, rummaging thru the fridge, taking a shower. So why not mention the trip to empty the safe??
Revatron, awesome, great, totally sensible! I agree.
Katie, thanks for all the detail you posted earlier about the estate...looking forward to more, and studying it...but wanted to acknowledge that you posted that information, thank you!
The skis...maybe they forgot to take them? Maybe they hooked up the boat and took off and left the skis up against the garage...wouldn't be the first time anyone has done that...
Trailering a boat home late after a weekend on the lake can be exhausting. Maybe he was tired after the drive home, and said i'll just grab the skis and put the boat away in the morning.
We've done that ourselves, so maybe i'm letting my own experiences influence me...i just don't see it as evidence of anything.
Oh katie...quick mention, they're all such liars, so who knows really, but baby killer tex says in his 'die for me' book that Charlie went in the bedroom and returned with Rosemary in a dress over her nightgown. And the Emmons book has charlie going in the bedroom, nudging Rosemary 'wake up, you got company' and as rosemary tried to cover herself, charlie saw a dress folded over the chair and handed it to her to put on...nice of him, huh?
Thanks Marliese. I couldn't remember exactly who allowed Rosemary the dignity of putting a dress over her nightgown.
But then they turn around and rip holes in her and leave her with her dress pulled up.
I guess allowing her some dignity was just a ruse to make sure the victims were "calm" this time.
Still thinking about the boat on the street...you know, if the boat was 'brand new'...a meticulous habit of carefully putting it away couldn't have been too established.
I think too much is being made of the fact that Frank said it was unusual the boat was still on the street because his stepfather usually put it away. What could the experience with that have been? One or two times? A few?
Maybe if Charlie had been at Cielo Drive he would have allowed Gibby & Sharon the dignity of putting something on before slicing and dicing them.
Marliese, I really don't think that boat was so new. I'll have to go back to the Waverly police report. It talks about that boat and that it had a lien on it. When I get time I'll look.
I'm with you and have said many times previously, that maybe Leno was just dead tired and said "screw it, I'll put that thing up in the morning". It's pretty obvious he was tired if he fell asleep reading the horse results. LOL.
Johnny, what you've done is invited us to a party where there is nothing to do.
It is not MY responsibility to find "meat" on this bone. You brought the theory up, so YOU provide the evidence. THAT would make for an interesting discussion. So far, Rosemary has been "extremely shocked" to hear about murder, and Leno didn't park his boat in the driveway? That wouldn't feed a fly.
Katie said>>>>with you and have said many times previously, that maybe Leno was just dead tired and said "screw it, I'll put that thing up in the morning". It's pretty obvious he was tired if he fell asleep reading the horse results. LOL<<<<<<
That is exactly how i feel, Katie.
You know, every time we come through the five in the dark, on a late weekend night, I think of Leno and Rosemary pulling the boat home through there...just imagining them barreling through those dark hills home to their slaughter. Not a clue.
They would have come home 99 to Interstate Five...a lot of trucks, especially at night when it's pitch black, high up curves though the hills, scary, fast, dark. Can't imagine it was much different in 1969...Castaic Lake, Lake Pyramid, Isabella...so a lot of boats in the summer, probably a little less traffic then, and maybe not as many lanes. Still, it's logical knowing it was late, a weekend on the water, in the sun...Bakersfield is the closest place to hell on earth in August...they were tired, i'm sure. Rosemary took her clothes off and went to bed. Leno sat up to have a beer and read the horses, and fell asleep on the sofa.
Oh well...just musing here...
operator error. let me try this again
n regards to Leno's new boat, evidently he had had boats before as that was his habit to back it up. according to the step son frank. i never met leno, so i can't speak to his habits but his step son frank evidently thought it was out of place. if you have an issue with that, take it up with frank. it is what frank told the police at the time. that his stepfather always put the boat away. now this was a new speedboat, the assumption is that it was a habit so that they had boats before. not an uncommon habit for folks who spend money and live in southern california.
in regards to backing it up the drive way, that isn't a big deal for someone accustomed to hauling a trailer around. not exhausting. i've had boats and trailers and once you learn how to back up with one it isn't that big a deal. especially a speed boat. what is a big deal is leaving a new boat out on the street where someone can hitch it up and go. especially a smaller boat like what leno had as opposed to some 30 foot cabin cruiser. speed boats on a trailer are not that hard to hook up and take off.
as to Revetron, why do you post on something that you are not interested in? it must be exhausting surfing the web to post on threads you have no interest in. i make the comment that it is an interesting discussion. if you don't find it interesting, do what mosts folks do. pass on. if you want to post to tell me my I am all wet then go for it. I always want to learn and am not locked in to a point of view.
clearly posting just to say you don't find it interesting is your prerogative. to each his own but it smacks of trollism.
by the way, this is the downside of the web. folks adopt a 'tude that they would never do one on one. how bout we just lighten up?
cheers
The topic isn't interesting considering the lack of evidence. I'm interested in pointing that out to you. I'm not stuck on any one theory, but I do stick with the evidence. You still haven't provided any. If you're holding out on info, this would be the time to share it.
I'm all for thinking the two nights of murder could have been part of something big. If you provide something substantial, then this will be very, very interesting.
No hard feelings, man. This theory is just weak the way it's been presented.
I am prepared to eat my words
Why take anything up with Frank? I don't have an 'issue' with what he told the police, I have no misunderstanding and no dispute about what he told the police. And honestly, I think what Frank said to the police about the boat on the street is common knowledge to most of us that know the basics.
I think Leno was simply tired. It's a reasonable opinion. I think it is what it is...they probably took the skis out of the boat to 'lessen' the risk of theft, with Leno figuring he'd put the boat away in the morning. But, like you...i also didn't know leno, so that's just my opinion.
I've been around boats too. My whole life. And my husband and I have owned and trailered boats all over California...from Bass Lake to the Colorado River. Like you, I know how to back a boat in the water, how to park the trailer, how bring it up again and drive it home late at night, back it up a hill, and put it away. I simply believe Leno was tired...not an unreasonable belief.
And had he not been gutted on his living room floor, probably would have brought it up in the morning, and Frank would have known nothing about it being on the street. I don't think the boat on the street is evidence of anything.
All that aside, I don't think anyone needs experience maneuvering or traveling with a ski boat to offer an opinion on the boat being in the street, or any other matter about the murders.
So what if Frank said the boat was left at the curb and Leno never did that before?
Frank also said he thought it was strange that the shades were drawn because they'd never done that before either. Should we draw some miraculous theory from that too?
Marliese I agree I think Leno & Rosemary were both bushed.
I've been to Fresno, CA and it can get up to 114 degrees in August. And it's a stone's throw away from Bakersfield I'm pretty sure.
That kind of heat will wear you out. Driving in traffic on a Saturday night all the way back to LA. That's gotta be a killer.
It's probably not hard to back a trailer up a steep driveway if you're experienced, but it's just another job to do. If it's such a nice neighborhood, why worry about someone jacking it?
The reason why Katie is that because it is a well to do neighborhood bad folks like to cruise those areas and see if cars are unlocked or some easy pickings are readily available.
Okay, $5500 for a boat then is over $30k today. Very tempting toy to leave out on the street. Crooks are smart, they troll nice neighborhoods.
Just take a look at the ariel picture of the car and boat. Look at its location in relation to the retaining wall.
Ask yourself, do you lug the skis up that steep driveway or do as you alway do, put the boat in the driveway. You just got done driving over a hundred miles, you can't go another 90 feet? Why not put the car in the driveway and save yourself lugging those skis up the driveway?
Revetron, not to worry you have no words to eat. It's all opinion at this point.
www.eviliz.com/2011/01/aerial-shot-of-la-bianca-home-post.html
here is the shot i am talking about.
It's also possible that Frank was not initially surprised by the boat parked on the street, but after finding his parents dead applied significance to it.
It is my opinion that he was more suspicious of the shades being drawn than he was of the boat.
I'm not familiar with the ski story. I can't remember it from the police reports or anything, but there's plenty there to forget.
I was just re reading the account of Frank's discovery in Helter Skelter. It says that Frank put his camping equipment away in the garage before he went to the back door of his house.
It is possible that Frank is responsible for the skis return, IF (as Katie pointed out earlier) the skis were taken at all.
Sweet picture. It looks like the garage is open, and is that Rosemary's car sticking out of the garage? To my knowledge, Frank never said anything strange about the garage being open.
that's a very fair point.
the aerial view really puts it all in perspective.
Johnny did you know that Leno kept that boat at his mother's house, not his? Don't you think for one minute that maybe he was tired and didn't feel like putting it there? Is it so hard to comprehend that after driving 4 hours to Lake Isabella, staying out in hot sun, and driving 4 hours back that he was just bone-tired and didn't want to mess with it?
And who knows if the skis were in it or not? Maybe they didn't take the skis. Maybe the skis were in the garage the whole time!
And as far as Tex taking Rosemary to Gateway to empty the safe, you didn't answer my question. Why has NO ONE mentioned it before Mr. Schreck did? Not one time! Don't you find that odd?
Do you think it's odd that a safe is empty in the morning? I've never owned a business, but I can't imagine leaving money in a safe or cash register overnight. I would take the deposit to the bank. I would think that any sane or sensible owner would.
I saw the aerial view. What does that pose? Nothing to me.
katie
bank deposits leaves records and traces. so internal auditors can follow the flow of cash.
just a thought.
leno treated gateway market as his own private piggy bank.
anywhooo, lets leave it be and see what transpires in the Shreck interview and after you get the book.
btw, what's up with that pic you use?
That boat was purchased in August of 1968, a year before the murders. The price was $3,050.00. The loan was made thru Bank of America. The payments were $98.33/month for 36 months. Balance due at their deaths was $2,400,00 including interest.
The 2nd LaBianca homocide report can be found here:
http://www.lsb3.com/2012/01/labianca-homicide-report-ii-hello-folks.html
Good stuff and good reading. It should clear up lots of questions.
okay, i picked up that $5k number from your earlier post.
so maybe they went water skiing in the boat but left their skis at home.
maybe leno drives 150 miles and cant be bothered another 90 feet up the driveway.
okay.
Johnny, thanks!
Are you talking about my avatar of Sadie???
It's interesting that you ask that because few do.
I chose Sadie's pic because she is just like me in many ways.
She's an instigator, a trouble maker, a big mouth and a fighter. She's a weirdo, a charmer, a breathtaker, a heartbreaker.
She's an enigma in many ways, she liked to brag about killing, but in reality she never killed anyone.
And she brought the Manson Family down to their knees with her big mouth....
I think that's what I like about her most! :)
Night!
it is very dramatic in the black and white
1Katie, have you ever been to Waverly?
I find being on Waverly very humbling...it makes me cry every time.
We were there last about three months ago...long time between visits, and even with all the changes, there is so much that takes your breath away. You can see the original concrete paths of the old driveway, for example...where the police officer stood across.
The roof tiles, the congestion of the road, and while the carport gobbles up the sweeping front lot, the house peaks over it, and is very recognizable...just makes me gasp. The front of the house is remarkably the same, no more aluminum awnings though. :)
When you're driving around there, it comes up quick...the road is surprisingly narrow and congested, and there is a tendency to pass it...we've done that anyway, but then you see the living room window reaching up over the view as you come around the curve, and it's 'stop the car, there it is!' Blows my mind every time.
I hope you get to see it sometime.
Marliese I haven't been to Waverly. Every time I visited LA with my family they "poo pooed" the Manson sites and we bypassed them. Everyone in my family thought I was nuts to follow this case.
It was always met with "eewwwwwhhh".
I would love to visit that site. It's on my bucket list to do Scott Michael's tour.
And I will indeed.
I think tonight I'm more tired than Leno & Rosemary were on Sunday morning, August 10th.
I think I'll be in a coma in a few minutes. Not to awaken until 6am.
Night!
Sharron found a stray kitten the night before the murders she locked the dogs away some were else that night so the kitten could wonder around safely. Any other time the dogs would have been roaming as normal
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