I'm really hoping that Manson attends his parole hearing tomorrow.
This could be one of the last times, we have a chance to see "live" footage of him speaking.
BTW...
Does he still refuse legal counsel?
It seems Pat, Leslie and Susan always had a lawyer directly to their right at ALL their hearings.
In that old parole hearing footage of Manson (where he removes his sunglasses, at the start)... there's not a soul anywhere near him (to my recollection). No lawyer? Is he really still that ignorant and stubborn?
Manson has been ignorant and stubborn for 40+ years... including during his own trial... and hence, has created (for himself) a situation whereby, he has no chance.
Manson may have had a glimmer of hope for acquittal or release... if he played his cards correctly from the start. Actually... much more than a glimmer for acquittal.
But... the guy is simply a jackass. He burned every possible bridge... and now, he can suck canal water for all I care...
He's making a statement. LOL Yeah right...
His only statement... is that an ignorant, arrogant, stubborn dickwad who refuses the counsel of lawyers... will rot in jail.
Great statement... Thanks for the heads-up Charlie! You ROCK!
just out of curiosity how many other guys have done as much time as manson for conspiracy to commit murder? is it common to do 40 years on that charge?
Bugliosi couldn't have convicted Manson, without Manson's help.
Bugliosi's entire case (against Manson), hinged around proving that Manson was in-charge. Manson's actions... as well as... the actions of "the family" collectively... both inside the courtroom and out... cemented the case for Bugliosi.
These idiots (including Manson himself) demonstrated for the jury... time and again... that Manson was in-charge. They galvanized that fact, into the jury's brains.
Manson put himself in jail.
I have no personal beef with Manson.
But... I have zero sympathy for a man, who puts himself in jail.
More specifically... Manson is in jail, because of foolish pride. If Manson had "de-throned" himself... and presented himself as a meer insignificant follower... he would have stood a decent chance of walking. The man couldn't swallow his pride.
The absolute genius of Bugliosi... was predicting the way Manson would play his cards... before the trial started.
And yes... Bugliosi was, in-fact, a brilliant lawyer... much to the besmirch of many. Bugliosi lost only ONE of 106 felony cases he tried as a prosecutor, which included winning 21 out of 21 murder cases. He was simply a brilliant lawyer. Manson fucked-up BIG-TIME playing hardball with this Italian.
I see folks all over the internet (like yourself), who want Manson released. Manson doesn't want to be released.
MattP asked: "just out of curiosity how many other guys have done as much time as manson for conspiracy to commit murder? is it common to do 40 years on that charge?"
I believe my reply to D-man above, covers that question aptly.
Manson is serving (and will continue to serve) more time, than any other human being on the planet... because he is a complete fuckup... who didn't even have the common sense to respect the very justice system, which held his entire life in the balance.
If you spit in the face of the executioner, while you're at the gallows... don't expect mercy.
Lets also keep in mind... Manson was convicted for multiple deaths.
Like the ruby slippers on Dorothy's feet: "There he is... and there he'll stay".
According to the "LA Times" article (which I posted as a thread, below)... a lawyer representing Manson, will (in fact) attend the parole hearing... "with or without" Manson.
"It could be his final chance at freedom as the state board under Marsy's Law can now deny parole for up to 15 years. Manson is now 77".
Yes, Lynyrd, I am DEFINITELY here! LOL Have I been missed??
LOVE the pix, no doubt about it. But, I want to know if Sharon has a birthmark on her tushie in the top pic! (I can see all the guys whipping out their.....maginifying glasses! :-))
I was actually gonna comment earlier... that I really like the fact that the photographers back then, didn't airbrush her butt crack. She looks like a real person. It's a real picture.
But... I figured I'd come against an agry onslaught of outraged women... so, I refrained.
But... since Venus (a woman) brought it up first...
Many times... it's our slight imperfections, which make us attractive... and in Sharon's case, she had so few...
She really is a gorgeous creature. She almost looks like a lioness, with all those perfect lines, curves, and muscles...
I like the fact that she felt so comfortable piosing nude. It's not something that I could ever do. I've always wondered why she was so ahead of the times in a way. This wasn't really something that most women did then unless they were trying to be in Playboy. She'd posed topless in 1961, when she was only 18. That was something that could've hurt many careers then.
>>>Venus said: I'd like to know what the attaction was too. I don't see it and I know that Katie doesn't either.>>>
I don't get that either. I hate to say it, but Roman was an up and coming director and Sharon may have seen a chance to hop on the money train. It would probably mean better roles for her in the future.
But, she did seem to love the guy....for some strange reason.
I think Sharon had a wild streak in her that Roman ignited. Jay was just too safe.
D-man said: "Thanks for that Lynyrd! I just can't help but relating to the guy in some ways. Maybe I'm warped? I blame society! Ha,ha... :)"
Well... D-man...
Manson does have some likable qualities.
He's a fabulous story-teller... no doubt. Truth be told... I could listen to him for hours... and I have.
He's got a great sense of humor. The fact that he can still see the humor in things... make others laugh... and even poke fun at himself... after all these years in jail, is nothing short of amazing.
He's a "dreamer" of sorts... which most people can relate to, on some level. I think "dreaming" relieves stress... and makes the reality of our lives, easier to bear. Reality is many times dictated, by our perception of it.
He's a smart guy, in an abstract philosophical way. Although... He's much more adept at pointing-out problems, than offering viable solutions. He can (and will) tell you everything that's wrong with the world in ten minutes. Solutions are harder to come by...
He's a pretty good musician... and I really enjoy his older (60's) music. In fact... I've taught myself a few of his songs.
Truth be told... I kinda like the guy myself. On a personal level... I'd rather be cellmates with Manson... than a whole lot of other criminals.
And... One must also consider, that the man does have significant observable mental issues, and illness. I give him quite a few points for that alone.
Do I have some sympathy for Manson? Sure. I hate to see any life wasted. There are no winners in a situation like this... the victims or the perpetrators. It's misery from start to finish. I certainly wish things had turned-out differently for everyone concerned...
But... as I said: At the end of the day... Manson really did share heavily in his own conviction. And... I personally believe, he's right where he belongs... and moreover where he wants to be.
The other thing one might consider is this: Even if Manson was never jailed for these murders... there's a very good chance, that Manson would have been in-and-out of prison his entire life, for lesser crimes anyway... and mostly in. That's a stark reality, that most of his supporters overlook.
The man really was, a career criminal... and not a very successful one at that. Drug dealings, credit card fraud, grand theft auto, vandalism, pimping, check forging... he shot a man (Bernard Crowe) straightaway at point-blank range with a pistol... and left him for dead. You name it D-man...
why is it so many people think manson was only convicted of conspiracy to committ murder? he was convicted of conspiracy plus seven counts of first degree murder for tate/labianca, as well as first degree murder for shea and first degree murder for hinman.
Is there a legal document we can view which clearly illustrates Manson‘s convictions?
As you’ve suggested, I’ve seen this caveat debated many times over the years, on several blogs. I've seen Manson's convictions expressed both ways (conspiracy vs first degree) countless times... by very respectable bloggers... on both sides of the argument.
Although... I've yet to see a legal document presented by anyone, which clearly illustrates their claim.
I know for a fact, that Manson was convicted regarding nine deaths. I've watched footage of Bugliosi expressing that information himself.
The way I understand the situation, is as follows: (Dilligaf... correct me if I'm wrong)
I believe that... at that time in California... participating in "conspiracy" regarding a murder, carried the same sentence/conviction as actually participating in said murder... i.e., "first degree".
Hence... as I understand it... Manson was convicted of nine counts of "first degree murder" by way of conspiracy.
Or... in more simple terms... because of the way the law was written... Bugliosi was able to convict Manson of "first degree murder" for the deaths of nine people... because Manson was a conspirator.
As for the constant confusion... I think it stems from this:
In a round-about… non-legal sense (LOL)… Manson was (in fact) “found guilty” of conspiracy… which (unfortunately for Manson) carried the conviction of “first degree murder”. Therein, I think… lies the constant confusion.
Or… I could in fact, be completely full of shit. LOL I say that… for two reasons. #1) Because I’ve seen several very well respected bloggers who still maintain Manson was convicted of conspiracy to murder on all counts. #2) I've never seen (or been able to provide myself) a legal document which proves these folks wrong. In truth… without legal documentation, I’ve flip-flopped myself on this issue over the years.
Manson himself (I believe) was completely convinced he could not be convicted of murder, because he never physically killed anyone. Unfortunately for Manson… Bugliosi knew the law much better than he did... (and most of us do).
At the end of the day Beauders… the point is really moot either way. Manson was convicted regarding the deaths of nine people 40+ years ago… and he’s never getting released.
I found this article regarding Manson's parole hearing (today) interesting.
It includes excerpts from Debra Tate... Manson's state-appointed attorney DeJon Ramone Lewis... and Deputy DA Patrick Sequeira.
It was released just an hour ago... (the article that is!) LOL
Debra: ""I've tried to take this thing that I do, that has become my lot in life, and make it have purpose," says the 59-year-old Tate, who was 17 in August 1969, when Manson sent his minions across LA on two nights of terror. "I've been doing it for Sharon and the other victims of him for the last 40 years."
"I want to lock eyes with him and walk them through everything done to each and every one of my friends, blow by blow," she said.
Debra Tate says she doubts the parole panel will vote to free Manson, but she does wish that his posture as a messiah out to save the world was perceived by everyone as being a sham.
"I would hope he would get the moxie to come to terms with the reality of his situation and not the myth. They were a bunch of renegade sociopaths that banded together and had one hot flame for a short period of time," she said. "It's important to me that I try to diminish and tarnish their status as urban legends. It's wrong, it's just plain wrong."
Myself... I kinda like Debra... which evidently puts me in the minority on google blogs. But whatever...
Well I've been watching In Session and HLN News and they haven't mentioned Manson's parole hearing at all. It's all about this Zimmerman guy's attorneys dumping him.
I guess Manson isn't that big of news now-a-days.
But I'll keep checking and see if they mention anything.
I like Debra too. I have to commend her on attending these parole hearings year after year, facing these monsters down and rallying to keep them locked up.
According to this article, Manson has an Attorney named DeJon R. Lewis who is arguing that Manson should be moved out of prison and into a "mental hospital", or as Karl on Sling Blade would say..."the nervous hospital". LOL.
What is the thing that Sharon's wearing in the 2nd pic? Every time I see it, I wonder what it is. It looks like a shower curtain or a pair of drapes or a large macrame plant hanger. Seriously, what is it????
And, yes, I think she was in her birthday suit although it does look like she might've had a string bikini or thong type thing on her bottom (look by her hand)
i think it is important that we all know manson was convicted of seven counts of first degree murder and conspiracy because his supporters use the idea that he was only convicted of conspiracy as a reason to release him. also for proof it's in the trial transcripts. bugliosi also wrote that there were 24 convictions at the trial 7 for manson, atkins, and krenwinkel and 3 for van houten.
Honestly Beauders... and with all due respect... I do believe you're splitting hairs, at this point.
Manson supporters will always point-out that Manson never actually killed anyone, as a reason to release him. That will never end. They will cling to that argument, because it's true... he never actually did (kill anyone).
Manson was successfully prosecuted as a conspirator... which carried the conviction of first degree. It really becomes a futile exercise in semantics. Manson was a conspirator. He never actually killed anyone. Supporters will always argue that point, regardless of the transcripts.. or the official conviction.
Fact is... These supporters don't believe Manson should have been convicted of first degree murder, for being (just) a conspirator in the first place. That's the whole point.
Anyway Beauders... A "reason to release him"? C'mon... LOL
Release. : )
Beauders... let these supporters dream of release... because that's all it is... a dream. And that's all it ever was. With yesterday's proceedings, this conversation is even more 'moot" than ever. Manson will never be released. The dream is completely over.
Anyway... enough of that business.
I'd like to get my greasy hands on those transcripts for more important reasons. I know Starship is looking forward to reading them also...
You (and others) purport to have read them, which begs the question: Where are these elusive trial transcripts? And why are they so hard to find? Folks reference these documents during debate, like the authoritative webtsers dictionary during a scrabble game... but no one ever sees them.
Could you send them to me, in PDF form?
I've seen links to bits and pieces of these transcripts online. I've viewed excerpts scattered here and there... but never the entire document.
Is the entire document (beginning to end) anywhere online in one place?
If you have these transcripts... please email them via PDF... or reference where they can be viewed.
I could then distribute the PDF document (via email) to whoever is interested in reading it. I haven't quite figured-out how to upload PDF files to the blog yet. LOL But... if I figured it out... I would just post the transcripts permanently on the blog.
That would be very helpful to everyone... and appreciated. That would be a great service and contribution to the blog... and a great educational tool for all who study this case.
beauders said...>>>>>> i think it is important that we all know manson was convicted of seven counts of first degree murder and conspiracy because his supporters use the idea that he was only convicted of conspiracy as a reason to release him. also for proof it's in the trial transcripts. bugliosi also wrote that there were 24 convictions at the trial 7 for manson, atkins, and krenwinkel and 3 for van houten.<<<<<
Hi Beauders, hope i'm not too late with a question for you...
The seven convictions in the TLB trial...can you clarify...was he convicted of conspiracy to murder as a separate charge or is it (as frequently stated) that the joint responsibility 'rule' makes him guilty of all seven murders, so seven first degree murder convictions plus conspiracy to murder...for Tate Labianca?
Additionally, wasn't Manson also convicted in the murder of Gary Hinman, as well as Donald Shea? For a total of nine murder convictions? i'd also love to see clarification on this...is it seven for the TLB trial...based on joint responsibility, another two for Hinman and Shea and somewhere in there a separate conspiracy conviction, no? Help please!
Yes Marliese... they got Manson for Shea and Hinman, for a total of nine.
I'll leave the rest to Beauders.
I'd really rather see Beauders produce the transcripts, so we can read the information for ourselves (once and for all).
Although I hold Beauders in very high regard... without documentation... her information remains unsubstantiated. We've seen 1000 unsubstantiated versions of this issue.
With his professional law experience in California, i'd love to see dilligaf step in and clarify some of these questions about Manson's convictions and how the law was applied etc etc
But that's just me...i always jump to read Dilligaf's replies whenever i see that he's posted...
Earlier... I hinted at Dilligaf's involvement by saying: "The way I understand the situation, is as follows: (Dilligaf... correct me if I'm wrong)".
That was my way of politely asking him to participate, in a subtle manner That type of subtle suggestion has generally worked (with high rates of success, LOL) in the past. This time it didn't.
It's very possible, Dilligaf missed my subtle hint altogether... or maybe, he has his own reasons for avoiding this discussion. That of course, is his prerogative...
I still believe... although quite interesting... this is really much-ado about nothing. But then again... we've wasted much more time, on much lesser things. So... Let the games begin! : )
I know myself. I'm gonna believe exactly what I want in regards to this issue, until "proof" is submitted... regardless of who speaks, anyway. Maybe my fixation with "proof" is a result of much time on the blogs... where proof is always regarded as tantamount. Or maybe... it's just my foolish male pride. Probably both...
Have fun folks! I'll be hovering in the background, in case something concrete surfaces. I've got a couple new threads to work on...
"The People had obtained the verdicts they had requested against Charles Manson, Patricia Krenwinkel and Susan Atkins: Each had been found guilty of ONE count of conspiracy to commit murder and SEVEN counts of murder in the first degree."
This quote is from page 539 of the book "Helter Skelter" by Vincent Bugliosi.
This is of course the TLB murders only. Doesn't include Hinman or Shea.
Yes, it does. That's why I can't figure out what it's supposed to be. Maybe it was a cover-up for a swimsuit? I have no idea. It's an odd thing, that's for sure.
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58 comments:
In that first photo...
I just couldn't bring myself, to put the watermark directly on Sharon's body.
It would be like desecrating a Picasso, Monet or Renoir.
Well...
Venus wil definitely be here tonight! LOL
BTW...
ALL photos can be ENLARGED by clicking on them.
I'm really hoping that Manson attends his parole hearing tomorrow.
This could be one of the last times, we have a chance to see "live" footage of him speaking.
BTW...
Does he still refuse legal counsel?
It seems Pat, Leslie and Susan always had a lawyer directly to their right at ALL their hearings.
In that old parole hearing footage of Manson (where he removes his sunglasses, at the start)... there's not a soul anywhere near him (to my recollection).
No lawyer?
Is he really still that ignorant and stubborn?
ignorant and stubborn?
i think hes realistic..hes got no chance of getting out so why bother with lawyers.
Sorry... let me rephrase that:
He's got no chance... AND he's ignorant and stubborn.
Or much more accurately:
Manson has been ignorant and stubborn for 40+ years... including during his own trial... and hence, has created (for himself) a situation whereby, he has no chance.
Manson may have had a glimmer of hope for acquittal or release... if he played his cards correctly from the start.
Actually... much more than a glimmer for acquittal.
But... the guy is simply a jackass.
He burned every possible bridge... and now, he can suck canal water for all I care...
He's making a statement.
LOL
Yeah right...
His only statement... is that an ignorant, arrogant, stubborn dickwad who refuses the counsel of lawyers... will rot in jail.
Great statement...
Thanks for the heads-up Charlie!
You ROCK!
He never wanted released before and I'm guessing he doesn't give two shits now either. Not like he has a snowballs chance in hell.
I wish they would let him out. 40+ years. Set the man free!
just out of curiosity how many other guys have done as much time as manson for conspiracy to commit murder?
is it common to do 40 years on that charge?
D-Man...
Manson is in jail, because he put himself there.
Bugliosi couldn't have convicted Manson, without Manson's help.
Bugliosi's entire case (against Manson), hinged around proving that Manson was in-charge.
Manson's actions... as well as... the actions of "the family" collectively... both inside the courtroom and out... cemented the case for Bugliosi.
These idiots (including Manson himself) demonstrated for the jury... time and again... that Manson was in-charge.
They galvanized that fact, into the jury's brains.
Manson put himself in jail.
I have no personal beef with Manson.
But...
I have zero sympathy for a man, who puts himself in jail.
More specifically...
Manson is in jail, because of foolish pride.
If Manson had "de-throned" himself... and presented himself as a meer insignificant follower... he would have stood a decent chance of walking.
The man couldn't swallow his pride.
The absolute genius of Bugliosi... was predicting the way Manson would play his cards... before the trial started.
And yes... Bugliosi was, in-fact, a brilliant lawyer... much to the besmirch of many.
Bugliosi lost only ONE of 106 felony cases he tried as a prosecutor, which included winning 21 out of 21 murder cases.
He was simply a brilliant lawyer.
Manson fucked-up BIG-TIME playing hardball with this Italian.
I see folks all over the internet (like yourself), who want Manson released.
Manson doesn't want to be released.
Thank you, Laurel, for the great pictures. I've seen many pics of Sharon cutting Roman's hair. She said Jay taught her how to cut hair.
BTW...
ALL photos can be ENLARGED by clicking on them.
Oh, it's getting larger alright
MattP asked:
"just out of curiosity how many other guys have done as much time as manson for conspiracy to commit murder? is it common to do 40 years on that charge?"
I believe my reply to D-man above, covers that question aptly.
Manson is serving (and will continue to serve) more time, than any other human being on the planet... because he is a complete fuckup... who didn't even have the common sense to respect the very justice system, which held his entire life in the balance.
If you spit in the face of the executioner, while you're at the gallows... don't expect mercy.
Lets also keep in mind... Manson was convicted for multiple deaths.
Like the ruby slippers on Dorothy's feet:
"There he is... and there he'll stay".
According to the "LA Times" article (which I posted as a thread, below)... a lawyer representing Manson, will (in fact) attend the parole hearing... "with or without" Manson.
"It could be his final chance at freedom as the state board under Marsy's Law can now deny parole for up to 15 years. Manson is now 77".
"Oh, it's getting larger alright!"
Ahahahahaha
Stormsurge... I just got that one! LOL
I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes... but, it finally sank in.
You're a freakin' Riot! : )
Yes, Lynyrd, I am DEFINITELY here! LOL Have I been missed??
LOVE the pix, no doubt about it. But, I want to know if Sharon has a birthmark on her tushie in the top pic! (I can see all the guys whipping out their.....maginifying glasses! :-))
I was actually gonna comment earlier... that I really like the fact that the photographers back then, didn't airbrush her butt crack.
She looks like a real person.
It's a real picture.
But...
I figured I'd come against an agry onslaught of outraged women... so, I refrained.
But... since Venus (a woman) brought it up first...
Many times... it's our slight imperfections, which make us attractive... and in Sharon's case, she had so few...
She really is a gorgeous creature.
She almost looks like a lioness, with all those perfect lines, curves, and muscles...
OK, I digress... LOLOL
Looking at that photo...
I still can't believe Roman Polanski was "hitting" that.
The thought alone, kinda makes your food come back up on ya doesn't it?
Goes to show ya... money talks, I guess.
What other attraction could there possibly have been?
Sharon could have had any man she wanted...
I like the fact that she felt so comfortable piosing nude. It's not something that I could ever do. I've always wondered why she was so ahead of the times in a way. This wasn't really something that most women did then unless they were trying to be in Playboy. She'd posed topless in 1961, when she was only 18. That was something that could've hurt many careers then.
The pix with Roman were taken at the Chateau Marmont. Jay had taught her how to cut hair so in the one pic, she's cutting his hair.
I'd like to know what the attaction was too. I don't see it and I know that Katie doesn't either.
Thanks for that Lynyrd! I just can't help but relating to the guy in some ways. Maybe I'm warped? I blame society! Ha,ha... :)
Nice pics! Thanks Laurel Canyon!
I agree Venus, I noticed that black mark right off the bat. Looks like a fly landed on her butt. Hmmm.....
>>>Stormy said: ALL photos can be ENLARGED by clicking on them.
Oh, it's getting larger alright>>>
HA HA HA HA!!! Funny baby!
I don't think Charlie will get out. He's blown that one forever.
Just like Lynyrd said, he's too arrogant to ever follow the rules of getting out. That is SOO not his way.
So he can just sit in his cell until he rots.
I wonder if the hearing will be on Tru TV tomorrow. I'll check it out.
>>>Venus said: I'd like to know what the attaction was too. I don't see it and I know that Katie doesn't either.>>>
I don't get that either. I hate to say it, but Roman was an up and coming director and Sharon may have seen a chance to hop on the money train. It would probably mean better roles for her in the future.
But, she did seem to love the guy....for some strange reason.
I think Sharon had a wild streak in her that Roman ignited. Jay was just too safe.
At least, that's my impression.
D-man said:
"Thanks for that Lynyrd! I just can't help but relating to the guy in some ways. Maybe I'm warped? I blame society! Ha,ha... :)"
Well... D-man...
Manson does have some likable qualities.
He's a fabulous story-teller... no doubt.
Truth be told... I could listen to him for hours... and I have.
He's got a great sense of humor.
The fact that he can still see the humor in things... make others laugh... and even poke fun at himself... after all these years in jail, is nothing short of amazing.
He's a "dreamer" of sorts... which most people can relate to, on some level.
I think "dreaming" relieves stress... and makes the reality of our lives, easier to bear.
Reality is many times dictated, by our perception of it.
He's a smart guy, in an abstract philosophical way.
Although...
He's much more adept at pointing-out problems, than offering viable solutions.
He can (and will) tell you everything that's wrong with the world in ten minutes.
Solutions are harder to come by...
He's a pretty good musician... and I really enjoy his older (60's) music.
In fact... I've taught myself a few of his songs.
Truth be told... I kinda like the guy myself.
On a personal level... I'd rather be cellmates with Manson... than a whole lot of other criminals.
And...
One must also consider, that the man does have significant observable mental issues, and illness.
I give him quite a few points for that alone.
Do I have some sympathy for Manson?
Sure.
I hate to see any life wasted.
There are no winners in a situation like this... the victims or the perpetrators.
It's misery from start to finish.
I certainly wish things had turned-out differently for everyone concerned...
But... as I said:
At the end of the day... Manson really did share heavily in his own conviction.
And... I personally believe, he's right where he belongs... and moreover where he wants to be.
The other thing one might consider is this:
Even if Manson was never jailed for these murders... there's a very good chance, that Manson would have been in-and-out of prison his entire life, for lesser crimes anyway... and mostly in.
That's a stark reality, that most of his supporters overlook.
The man really was, a career criminal... and not a very successful one at that.
Drug dealings, credit card fraud, grand theft auto, vandalism, pimping, check forging... he shot a man (Bernard Crowe) straightaway at point-blank range with a pistol... and left him for dead.
You name it D-man...
"It is, what it is".
why is it so many people think manson was only convicted of conspiracy to committ murder? he was convicted of conspiracy plus seven counts of first degree murder for tate/labianca, as well as first degree murder for shea and first degree murder for hinman.
Hi Beauders.
Is there a legal document we can view which clearly illustrates Manson‘s convictions?
As you’ve suggested, I’ve seen this caveat debated many times over the years, on several blogs.
I've seen Manson's convictions expressed both ways (conspiracy vs first degree) countless times... by very respectable bloggers... on both sides of the argument.
Although...
I've yet to see a legal document presented by anyone, which clearly illustrates their claim.
I know for a fact, that Manson was convicted regarding nine deaths.
I've watched footage of Bugliosi expressing that information himself.
The way I understand the situation, is as follows:
(Dilligaf... correct me if I'm wrong)
I believe that... at that time in California... participating in "conspiracy" regarding a murder, carried the same sentence/conviction as actually participating in said murder... i.e., "first degree".
Hence... as I understand it...
Manson was convicted of nine counts of "first degree murder" by way of conspiracy.
Or... in more simple terms... because of the way the law was written... Bugliosi was able to convict Manson of "first degree murder" for the deaths of nine people... because Manson was a conspirator.
As for the constant confusion... I think it stems from this:
In a round-about… non-legal sense (LOL)… Manson was (in fact) “found guilty” of conspiracy… which (unfortunately for Manson) carried the conviction of “first degree murder”. Therein, I think… lies the constant confusion.
Or… I could in fact, be completely full of shit. LOL
I say that… for two reasons.
#1) Because I’ve seen several very well respected bloggers who still maintain Manson was convicted of conspiracy to murder on all counts.
#2) I've never seen (or been able to provide myself) a legal document which proves these folks wrong.
In truth… without legal documentation, I’ve flip-flopped myself on this issue over the years.
Manson himself (I believe) was completely convinced he could not be convicted of murder, because he never physically killed anyone. Unfortunately for Manson… Bugliosi knew the law much better than he did... (and most of us do).
At the end of the day Beauders… the point is really moot either way.
Manson was convicted regarding the deaths of nine people 40+ years ago… and he’s never getting released.
Stunning photos!!
I found this article regarding Manson's parole hearing (today) interesting.
It includes excerpts from Debra Tate... Manson's state-appointed attorney DeJon Ramone Lewis... and Deputy DA Patrick Sequeira.
It was released just an hour ago... (the article that is!) LOL
Debra:
""I've tried to take this thing that I do, that has become my lot in life, and make it have purpose," says the 59-year-old Tate, who was 17 in August 1969, when Manson sent his minions across LA on two nights of terror. "I've been doing it for Sharon and the other victims of him for the last 40 years."
"I want to lock eyes with him and walk them through everything done to each and every one of my friends, blow by blow," she said.
Debra Tate says she doubts the parole panel will vote to free Manson, but she does wish that his posture as a messiah out to save the world was perceived by everyone as being a sham.
"I would hope he would get the moxie to come to terms with the reality of his situation and not the myth. They were a bunch of renegade sociopaths that banded together and had one hot flame for a short period of time," she said. "It's important to me that I try to diminish and tarnish their status as urban legends. It's wrong, it's just plain wrong."
Myself... I kinda like Debra... which evidently puts me in the minority on google blogs.
But whatever...
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120411/US.Charles.Manson.Parole.Hearing/?cid=hero_media
Well I've been watching In Session and HLN News and they haven't mentioned Manson's parole hearing at all. It's all about this Zimmerman guy's attorneys dumping him.
I guess Manson isn't that big of news now-a-days.
But I'll keep checking and see if they mention anything.
Thanks Lynyrd.
I like Debra too. I have to commend her on attending these parole hearings year after year, facing these monsters down and rallying to keep them locked up.
The Manson family managed to ruin her life too.
a moment for the victims...
I personally have spent many years reading/listening/and watching the murderers trying to figure this whole thing out...
as well... many years fighting and arguing with others over -sometimes the most trivial of things really...
But today I take a moment out to think just about Sharon and Jay, and Gibby, and Voytek, and Steven, Leo and Rosie, Shorty, Gary....
all people like us-
some beautiful outside, others beautiful inside.. All flawed, and imperfect- yet just right to those who loved them.
people who all had some kind of life going, and they had the right to see it through for better or worse in my opinion...
some would say certain ones lived lives which made them easy targets...
Well if living behind a armed gate in Beverly Hills made them vulnerable- I guess maybe most of the rest of us shouldn't be sleeping so easy....
I grieve today for Sharon and her lost baby and the grandchild her parents never got to have, and the nephew her sisters never got to hold...
I fell badly for the families of all of these fellow human beings who were taken so brutally and suddenly...
That is all I got for today
Thanks St! Or is it ST? LOL.
You're right, I get so tired of hearing people whine that these victims brought death on themselves. BULL-HOCKEY!!
None of these victims did ANYTHING to Charles Manson, and none of them did anything to deserve this type of cruelty.
They all should have had the chance to live their lives and achieve their dreams. But Manson decided otherwise.....
Manson is still just as nutty as he was back in 1969. Nothing's changed. And his followers are just as nutty too.
GREAT POST SAINT... THANKS!
Okay this just in:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/charles-manson-should-move-to-mental-hospital-attorney-says.html
According to this article, Manson has an Attorney named DeJon R. Lewis who is arguing that Manson should be moved out of prison and into a "mental hospital", or as Karl on Sling Blade would say..."the nervous hospital". LOL.
Wow...
They're playing the "mental hospital card"?
I have to say... I just didn't see that one coming...
Great Lawyer!
He knows Manson is never going to be released... so he shoots for the transfer move.
Hmm... interesting.
Well...
As usual folks, you heard it here first. LOLOL
Manson was a "no show" for his parole hearing.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jHcCkX6AEy-EdTDVRjYOdewXfGMg?docId=199d87f0b5074499a46982742a8d5b8e
What is the thing that Sharon's wearing in the 2nd pic? Every time I see it, I wonder what it is. It looks like a shower curtain or a pair of drapes or a large macrame plant hanger. Seriously, what is it????
Venus I'm not sure what it is, but I think she's in her birthday suit underneath it. LOL.
In the picture of Sharon cutting Roman's hair, he looks like he's bitching at her about the way she's cutting it.
He probably was complaining! I'd believe it.
And, yes, I think she was in her birthday suit although it does look like she might've had a string bikini or thong type thing on her bottom (look by her hand)
i think it is important that we all know manson was convicted of seven counts of first degree murder and conspiracy because his supporters use the idea that he was only convicted of conspiracy as a reason to release him.
also for proof it's in the trial transcripts. bugliosi also wrote that there were 24 convictions at the trial 7 for manson, atkins, and krenwinkel and 3 for van houten.
Honestly Beauders... and with all due respect... I do believe you're splitting hairs, at this point.
Manson supporters will always point-out that Manson never actually killed anyone, as a reason to release him.
That will never end.
They will cling to that argument, because it's true... he never actually did (kill anyone).
Manson was successfully prosecuted as a conspirator... which carried the conviction of first degree.
It really becomes a futile exercise in semantics.
Manson was a conspirator.
He never actually killed anyone.
Supporters will always argue that point, regardless of the transcripts.. or the official conviction.
Fact is...
These supporters don't believe Manson should have been convicted of first degree murder, for being (just) a conspirator in the first place.
That's the whole point.
Anyway Beauders...
A "reason to release him"?
C'mon... LOL
Release. : )
Beauders... let these supporters dream of release... because that's all it is... a dream.
And that's all it ever was.
With yesterday's proceedings, this conversation is even more 'moot" than ever.
Manson will never be released.
The dream is completely over.
Anyway... enough of that business.
I'd like to get my greasy hands on those transcripts for more important reasons.
I know Starship is looking forward to reading them also...
You (and others) purport to have read them, which begs the question:
Where are these elusive trial transcripts?
And why are they so hard to find?
Folks reference these documents during debate, like the authoritative webtsers dictionary during a scrabble game... but no one ever sees them.
Could you send them to me, in PDF form?
I've seen links to bits and pieces of these transcripts online.
I've viewed excerpts scattered here and there... but never the entire document.
Is the entire document (beginning to end) anywhere online in one place?
If you have these transcripts... please email them via PDF... or reference where they can be viewed.
I could then distribute the PDF document (via email) to whoever is interested in reading it.
I haven't quite figured-out how to upload PDF files to the blog yet. LOL
But... if I figured it out... I would just post the transcripts permanently on the blog.
That would be very helpful to everyone... and appreciated.
That would be a great service and contribution to the blog... and a great educational tool for all who study this case.
Thanks... Lynyrd
beauders said...>>>>>>
i think it is important that we all know manson was convicted of seven counts of first degree murder and conspiracy because his supporters use the idea that he was only convicted of conspiracy as a reason to release him.
also for proof it's in the trial transcripts. bugliosi also wrote that there were 24 convictions at the trial 7 for manson, atkins, and krenwinkel and 3 for van houten.<<<<<
Hi Beauders, hope i'm not too late with a question for you...
The seven convictions in the TLB trial...can you clarify...was he convicted of conspiracy to murder as a separate charge or is it (as frequently stated) that the joint responsibility 'rule' makes him guilty of all seven murders, so seven first degree murder convictions plus conspiracy to murder...for Tate Labianca?
Additionally, wasn't Manson also convicted in the murder of Gary Hinman, as well as Donald Shea? For a total of nine murder convictions? i'd also love to see clarification on this...is it seven for the TLB trial...based on joint responsibility, another two for Hinman and Shea and somewhere in there a separate conspiracy conviction, no? Help please!
Again, sorry if i'm too late, a lot going on...
Yes Marliese... they got Manson for Shea and Hinman, for a total of nine.
I'll leave the rest to Beauders.
I'd really rather see Beauders produce the transcripts, so we can read the information for ourselves (once and for all).
Although I hold Beauders in very high regard... without documentation... her information remains unsubstantiated.
We've seen 1000 unsubstantiated versions of this issue.
I've emailed Starship.
If he's available... maybe he can shed some light on this topic.
Starship generally doesn't speak, unless he's 100% absolutely certain with his facts.
Quite frankly... short of documentation... I'll take his word over anybody's.
With his professional law experience in California, i'd love to see dilligaf step in and clarify some of these questions about Manson's convictions and how the law was applied etc etc
But that's just me...i always jump to read Dilligaf's replies whenever i see that he's posted...
"Myself... I kinda like Debra... which evidently puts me in the minority on google blogs.
But whatever..." - Lynyrd
I kinda like Debra, too.
Earlier...
I hinted at Dilligaf's involvement by saying:
"The way I understand the situation, is as follows: (Dilligaf... correct me if I'm wrong)".
That was my way of politely asking him to participate, in a subtle manner
That type of subtle suggestion has generally worked (with high rates of success, LOL) in the past.
This time it didn't.
It's very possible, Dilligaf missed my subtle hint altogether... or maybe, he has his own reasons for avoiding this discussion.
That of course, is his prerogative...
I still believe... although quite interesting... this is really much-ado about nothing.
But then again... we've wasted much more time, on much lesser things.
So... Let the games begin! : )
I know myself.
I'm gonna believe exactly what I want in regards to this issue, until "proof" is submitted... regardless of who speaks, anyway.
Maybe my fixation with "proof" is a result of much time on the blogs... where proof is always regarded as tantamount.
Or maybe... it's just my foolish male pride.
Probably both...
Have fun folks!
I'll be hovering in the background, in case something concrete surfaces.
I've got a couple new threads to work on...
Peace...
Thanks Carol!
You're a very sweet lady.
Always a pleasure to have you on the blog...
Yes Venus.
Sharon's apparell in the second photo does in fact, resemble a shower curtain!
AHahahahaha
Going forward... I should probably stick to similar observations, of which I'm sure.
Yep... that's a shower curtain!
I'd recognize that anywhere. LOL
Venus said:
"It looks like a shower curtain or a pair of drapes or a large macrame plant hanger. Seriously, what is it????"
AHahahahaha
Seriously Venus.
That's better than all the jokes on the next thread combined. : )
As my uncle used to say...
"If you can't dazzl'em with facts, baffl'em with bullshit". LOL
It seems to be working for our political candidates. : )
"The People had obtained the verdicts they had requested against Charles Manson, Patricia Krenwinkel and Susan Atkins: Each had been found guilty of ONE count of conspiracy to commit murder and SEVEN counts of murder in the first degree."
This quote is from page 539 of the book "Helter Skelter" by Vincent Bugliosi.
This is of course the TLB murders only. Doesn't include Hinman or Shea.
I hope this answers all your questions.
THANKS KATIE!
A quote straight from Vincent Bugliosi... with page references and everything.
That's proof enough for me!
My curiousity is completely satisfied.
Actually... my curiousity was satisfied, 12 posts ago. LOLOL
THANKS!
Glad to hear that I gave you a chuckle, Lynyrd. That made my day.
Venus, doesn't that "dress" look like it has macrame on the bottom?
Yes, it does. That's why I can't figure out what it's supposed to be. Maybe it was a cover-up for a swimsuit? I have no idea. It's an odd thing, that's for sure.
Venus, only Sharon could pull this off (no pun intended)!
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