1. "I would like to see a thread discussing the reason why the victims gave in so easily, Ive never understood this. Why didn't Steven Parent when he saw the gun just step on the accelerator? Why did Jay (karate guy) let a skanky girl with a knife order him and Sharon out to the living room? Leno vs Charlie? That didn't seem right either, Leno appeared to be a big guy. I know after the killings started they all wreaked havoc and tried to resit and run, but NOT at first, and I just don't get this".
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2. "I would like a thread dedicated to the view that someone returned to cielo after the murders and what evidence there is and who and why and when". Bugliosi's Response to the Question...
Thanks Janson2112, for your Participation!
Thanks Janson2112, for your Participation!
63 comments:
As for question #1.....there was a gun involved. Duh
The victims were caught by surprise.
No one knew they were going to be murdered.
If they had known what was coming they surely would have fought from the start.
Steve Parent probably didn't see the gun/knife until they were thrust in his face. It was dark.... Total surprise. "Don't hurt me!!".
Slash.....
Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang.
The victims in the Tate home didn't know what was going on.
Atkins walks into the room with Sharon and Jay and tells them to go into the living room.......Krenwinkel does the same with Folger.
Sebring and the women are wondering, "what's going on here?".
They enter the living room and are confronted by a madman armed with a knife and gun. Tex standing over a tied up Frykowski, barking orders, waving the blade pointing the gun. One can easily imagine how freaked out they must have been.
As soon as Jay moved to protect Sharon, he was shot.
If Tex wasn't armed with a gun the outcome might have been different.
As for the LaBiancas.
Manson had a gun. Again a madman pointing a gun while giving orders......the last thing you want is for him to pull the trigger.
Surprise/fear.
Tex says he entered the home with Manson to tie up the LaBiancas......I believe he did.
Even a big man would take orders from from a home invasion team threatening to kill him and his wife if they refuse to comply.
All very sad.
I don't believe Manson or anyone else returned to the Tate murder scene.
Others here do......
Years ago my dad was held up by a man half his age with a gun. My dad tried to wrestle the gun out of the guy's hand (my dad had been a Marine, so I'm not surprised). My dad was lucky that he wasn't hurt, but he could have been. We all told him he was foolish to fight back, especially when the other guy had a gun. But we never know how we are going to react when faced with a dangerous situation. I wonder why the victims didn't try to overcome their killers, too, but I can't put myself in their shoes. I probably would have been frozen with fear to do anything except what I was told to do. And Jay may have been worried about doing anything that would jeopardize Sharon's safety.
Sbuch, I agree with most of what you said.
It was still the summer of love. People were welcome to come and go and no one killed anyone yet.
I'm sure they were all surprised and never expected to be viciously carved up by complete strangers.
Leno cooperated because he had a gun in his face. No matter how big he was, he knew that being shot at close range would probably have been fatal. Although Charlie kept reassuring him that he wasn't going to be harmed. (We all know that was a lie).
All he could do was cooperate and hope for the best.
I do think Charlie went back with someone else later before dawn.
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that after August 10, 1969, nobody would have gotten away with just walking in and taking over like that.
People were arming themselves and bolting doors.
i seem to remember something about parents car.
was it a dent or a piece of broken fence caught in the fender?
something like that.
common sense would say no-one went back to the crime scene but then how did tates blood get on the front steps and it was'nt just a few drops either.
Jason 2112, feel free to join in the comments!
Kill Trout, I believe Jason was referring to the fact that Jay & Sharon didn't know anyone had a gun when Sadie came in the bedroom and ordered them into the living room.
Now why Jay didn't just knock that knife out of Sadie's hand I don't know, except that, as Carol mentioned, he was concerned for Sharon and they had no idea at that moment they were going to be butchered.
As far as why Parent didn't just run Tex down, I've asked that question myself, but going back to the element of surprise, he wasn't anticipating being gunned down either.
Gibby both fought and rand. Frykowski made a galant struggle and made it to the front yard while losing blood in torrents. Frykowski overcame Sadie who was swinging her knife. There was a hysterical struggle going on at Cielo. To say there was no attempt to fight back is not factual. The first thing Tex told Charlie after getting back to Spahns was about how difficult it was to kill everyone. BTW, a buck knife is a badass knife made to cut through deer hide.
leno was a WW2 combat vet so if he can be ambushed then ANYONE can be ambushed. In a fair fight Leno could whip most anyone. Rosemary did fight back once she realized they were carving up Leno. She was slinging the lamp she was tied with. tex had to come help kill rosemary because Rosemary was struggling with all her might.
As far as Bug saying Charlie never went back? Do you really think Bug will ever admit that he completely missed that fact? Get real.
The Family returned to all three murders: Hinman, Tate and Labianca.
Mr. P., thanks for your comment. I agree with everything you said.
>>>The Family returned to all three murders: Hinman, Tate and Labianca.>>>
Hmmmm....Bobby went back to Hinman, Charlie went back to Tate, but who went back to LaBianca?
I have read that things were taken/moved after the Waverly Drive murders. Any idea who? For some reason, Gypsy comes to mind.
On the afternoon of August 8, 1969, Sharon begs off to her friend Sheilah Wells that she's not feeling well, she's not coming over for dinner (there wasn't a party planned that night at Cielo Drive).
She goes to dinner with her 3 friends. They come back and Voytek crashes on the couch (MDA), Gibby calls her mother and talks about her trip the next day, goes to bed to read a book (MDA), anticipating getting up early to fly to SF to see her mother for her birthday, Sharon & Jay are in Sharon's room talking. Everything is normal and as it should be.
Tex gets in and kicks Voytek awake. Voytek sees that Tex has a gun. Voytek isn’t a small guy. He could take Tex, but Tex has a gun. According to Susan, Tex orders her to see who else is there. She reports back a woman in one room and a man and woman in another room.
Again, according to Susan she (a) went and got Gibby and Sharon & Jay or (b) Pat went to get Gibby and she went to get Sharon & Jay. She changed her story often. But in either scenario, she and Pat only had KNIVES.
Gibby, Sharon & Jay go to the living room without protest. Why? I really don't know, except that maybe they thought it was just a simple robbery. If they cooperate, everything's cool.
We all know what happened after that.
We will NEVER know what all really happened because the only ones left alive to tell the tale are the killers.
>>>Matt said: i seem to remember something about parents car.
was it a dent or a piece of broken fence caught in the fender?
something like that.>>>
There was a dent in his rear fender and it's suspected that he backed into the fence because the fence was damaged. Now when did he do that? We don't know.
>>>common sense would say no-one went back to the crime scene but then how did tates blood get on the front steps and it was'nt just a few drops either.>>>
Charlie said he went back to "see what his children had done".
We know that someone went back because Jay & Sharon's bodies were moved to the porch and back. Why? I don't know, but the blood pool proves that their bodies laid there a while.
Also, the glasses were left on the trunks. Glasses that belonged to no one. A false clue.
Ackording to Ed Sanders, Manson together with someone else drove up to Cielo Drive after the murders had come back to Spahn Ranch. They took towels and wiped every surface clean, except for Tex´s print on the front door and Katie´s on the door out to the swimming pool. Manson took a beige towel and hooded it over the head of Jay Sebring.
Why is it that everybody who thinks that Manson always is a pathological lier suddenly belives every word that this guy is saying?
To me Vincent Bug´s explanation is more logical and in touch with reality.
And I also think that it is not impossible that the family was under some sort of surveillance from some law or intelligence service.
Is there a tiny bit of truth in William Garretson´s statement that three men came up to his door and one of the men pointed a gun on him?
Suppose that Garretson had been called as a witness in the trial and he had made such a statement what direction would the trial had taken then?
katie8753 said...
Mr. P., thanks for your comment. I agree with everything you said.
>>>The Family returned to all three murders: Hinman, Tate and Labianca.>>>
Hmmmm....Bobby went back to Hinman, Charlie went back to Tate, but who went back to LaBianca?
I have read that things were taken/moved after the Waverly Drive murders. Any idea who? For some reason, Gypsy comes to mind.
Poirot replies:
Let me rephrase: they not only returned to all three murder scenes but had been to all three previously.
I have never found out who returned to the Labianca house. Leno's 1st wife was taking care of the Labianca house after the funerals; it is she who said that she arrived one day to find logs arranged on the floor in front of the fireplace in a design.
>>>Mr. P said: Let me rephrase: they not only returned to all three murder scenes but had been to all three previously.>>>
Well I know they'd been to Gary's, Tex and others had been to Cielo Drive, but who went to Waverly Drive before the murders?
I know there are accounts that they'd been creepy crawled before the murders. Which makes no sense at all.
All the killers in the car didn't recognize the LaBianca house. Only the True house.
>>>I have never found out who returned to the Labianca house. Leno's 1st wife was taking care of the Labianca house after the funerals; it is she who said that she arrived one day to find logs arranged on the floor in front of the fireplace in a design.>>
Yes Leno's first wife Alice loved to talk. I wonder if she was just talking about things she knew about...or just talking to hear herself talk.
She also wrote a book, I think it was "No More Tomorrows" but I think it was mostly self-serving about her.
I also think that Suzanne LaBerge was in on the murders.
I know that no one else thinks that, but I do.
I think she alerted Charlie that the LaBiancas were going to be home about 2:30 or 3:00 am.
How else would he have known? They dropped her off at her apartment around 2ish am. She knew they would drive by the newspaper guy and get a paper for the racing results, something Leno did every day.
Rosemary had threatened to disinherit her because of her association with that motorcycle guy. (Joe something).
She inherited millions.
Just my opinion.
>>>V717 said: Why is it that everybody who thinks that Manson always is a pathological lier suddenly belives every word that this guy is saying?>>>
Interesting. Touche.
>>>And I also think that it is not impossible that the family was under some sort of surveillance from some law or intelligence service.
Is there a tiny bit of truth in William Garretson´s statement that three men came up to his door and one of the men pointed a gun on him?
Suppose that Garretson had been called as a witness in the trial and he had made such a statement what direction would the trial had taken then?>>>
Is that when he saw the 3-eyed baby? Garretson is incompetent to be a witness at any trial.
I have to wonder if Steven Parent left Gatretson's cottage after only staying a few minutes because Parent saw that Garretson was off in the head.
katie, did Suzanne LaBerge know Manson through her boyfriend, Joe Dorgan? I believe I read that Manson has said he knew Dorgan pretty well.
One thing I've always wondered about is how come these guys weren't drafted into the Vietnam war?
Charlie was too old and Tex supposedly hurt his knee, but what about Bruce or Bobby?
Katie,
This will be my guess, but with a disclaimer. I did not serve in the military, but I am very proud of my 20 year old son, who is the Army, currently serving with the
82nd Airborne. As such, my answer may not be completely accurate, but it would not be the first time I have been accused of talking out of my rearend,
While the draft was still in service during the beginning of the Vietnam conflict, the draft as we know it, did not start until the need for more troops was needed to back fill the increase of in-country troops. The Draft Lottery began in late 1969, I believe December. As such, it was long after these pillars of society had illustrated their physical prowness and stunning mental superiority.
Thanks Bobby and Mr. Dill.
Bobby I've heard that conspiracy stuff and I believe in that as much as I believe in Santa Claus. HA HA.
Mr. Dill, congrats on your son's fine military service.
I don't know that much about the draft either, but I do remember that my brother graduated HS in the late 60's and immediately had to register with the Selective Service and was told that if he was not enrolled full time in college with passing grades, he was outta here.
I remember when they did the lottery drawing and my brother lucked out big time. He was like #362. LOL.
But these guys are older than my brother and before 1969 they would have been fair game if they weren't enrolled in College, which they weren't. Tex mentioned that he avoided the draft because of his knee injury. Or at least that's what HE says.
Maybe the draft board just couldn't find them???
I agree Bobby. He wanted to see what havoc his followers had wreaked on "piggies".
He even made the comment the next night that "he needed to show them how to do it". So if he hadn't seen what they'd done the night be fore, how did he know it needing improving??
I think he also went there to leave false clues, get rid of evidence and mirk up the crime scene so it would hard to figure out what happened and who might have done it.
The gun played a major factor in the murders,no doubt about it. As for wondering why Jay didn't take care of Susan, there are several thoughts. This was still the era when boys didn't hit girls, I don't think he would've hit her unless it was absolutely necessary. Had he thought she was there to do any harm to them, would he have done something? Of course. I think he thought it was a simple robbery so why not just cooperate and get rid of her. And we don't know how Sharon reacted. Did she panic? Maybe he was trying ti keep her calm. If he'd had any idea of the danger that awaited them, he would've taken care of Susan and gotten Sharon out of the house and probably tried to get help for the others if he couldn't help them himself.
As for Leno, that one has always puzzled me. Why did he cooperate so easily? Was a weapon held on him? He was so much bigger than Charlie, he could've easily dispatched him with one swipe of his hand--or the nearest flyswatter. I guess he was just caught totally off guard.
OT, so I apologize: Something I've always wondered about - Why were Abigail and Voytek living with Sharon at Cielo? Was Sharon afraid to live alone while Roman was away? I've never understood what they were doing there. I remember reading an interview with Roman in which he was asked how long Voytek lived at his house. Roman replied, "Too long." Interesting. Did he mean that if Voytek hadn't been living there, he would still be alive? Or was he trying to suggest that Voytek was in some way the reason for the murders?
Hi Venus. I agree with your take on Jay. He probably didn't think it was anything deadly or he would have reacted differently. Maybe they were just confused and thought it was some kind of prank.
Some skinny little girl comes in with a knife and says go into the living room. Could have been anything.
Leno was different. Charlie surprised him with a weapon. He was tired (it was around 3am) and was reading the track results before going to sleep. Easy to catch someone unawares.
That one I understand.
Charlie told the killers on the second night that he was going to go along to make sure they did it right this time. He told them you never let someone know you're going to kill them.
But the second night was even more gory than the first night.
So much for showing them "how to do it".
I agree with Kill Trout, there was a gun. A gun changes everything. The moment Jay started to protest, he was instantly shot in the head.
I wish Steven had stepped on it too...but at 18, startled, some guy in front of you telling you to stop!, he was executed before the thought could have occurred to him.
And it's important to remember, Tex went in the Labianca house with Charlie. Charlie had the gun, Tex had a bayonet. Charlie jabbed Leno with the gun...he was asleep on the sofa. You're startled, sleepy, late at night, some creep has a gun in your face and a monster next to him has a bayonet, your wife is in the next room, and they say we're not going to hurt you...you think it's a robbery so you offer some money from the store to get them out of there, but the moment Leno was immobilized with those thongs, it was over...if only...if only...but if he had tried to take them on before he was tied up, he'd have been shot. I have no doubt Charlie would have shot him like he shot Crowe, or Tex would've jammed that bayonet at him. And remember, Charlie's attitude was don't let them know we're gonna kill them...keep them calm. So Leno complied, and quickly became their victim.
I've thought the same so many times, if only they'd done this or that, but then i dislike feeling that way because it seems like blaming the victims for not trying hard enough, for not getting away, for not fighting, for failing to prevent their own horrible deaths...
Have thought about it when Sharon was alone with Sadie, when tex was finishing Frykowski and Pat was at the guesthouse, if she'd have kicked her in the face and knocked her for a loop, and run out the back door...maybe there wouldn't have been time, maybe she was in shock, couldn't think, scared out of her mind...and Tex would've just chased her down and butchered her outside anyway.
Same thing with Gary...have thought, if only you'd have gotten out, but he wasn't a fighter, and eventually he was too weak from his injuries.
Poor Shorty...he was a big guy too, but he didn't stand a chance, caught off guard and clubbed from behind in the car, still reeling from it when Clem the killer stabbed him in the heart. It infuriates me to read that the judge let him off easier because he considered him too stupid and hopped up on drugs to decide anything on his own. He had no trouble brutally killing Shorty, and lying about it for years.
These people can rot in prison for what they've done. And clem, whining about being found out...he's a killer, and he should thank his lucky stars he's free to complain.
Good points, Marliese. I was thinking that only Charlie went into the LaBianca house. With the 2 guys both holding weapons, that does make a big difference.
We, of course, are looking back on this with the knowledge of what happened to all of them. They had no idea of what was going to happen and were probably trying to cooperate to the best of their ability. Plus, they were probably in some sort of shock.
Wait a minute--wasn't Charlie the only one to enter? I keep thinking that he tied them up and then sent the others in. Now I'm confused as to why Leno would cooperate with the little weasel (my apologies to any weasels that might be reading the board, no insult intended), was Rosemary being threatened at the time?
I think they all did the best they could considering the circumstances. If only they knew what we know now.
Marliese thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you completely.
I too have imagined at those few moments that Susan and Sharon were alone in the house that Sharon could have gotten away. Unfortunately she was 8-1/2 months pregnant and not moving fast on her feet. But if she had gotten out where would she go? Hide in the garage? Climb the hill in back? Try to climb down the hill in front? Run for the gate?
She would never have made it. Good ole Tex would have caught her. This guy acted liked he was on PCP.
I think that people forget what it was like BEFORE the Cielo Drive murders. People didn't lock their doors. There were people in and out all the time. People you knew...people you didn't know...friends of friends.
I think the surprise factor was the biggest advantage. And once you get the advantage, you've got the "one up" on your opponent.
These killers weren't stronger, faster or smarter than their victims. They just had the element of surprise.
I've wished many times that just ONE of the victims could have survived. Then we might finally know the truth.
In Bruce Davis' parole hearing in 1978, he mentions that Ella Jo said that Hinman had money.
Charlie calls Gary up and asks that he join the family, to get his money, which he didn't really have anyway.
Gary refuses. Charlie then gets adamant about it and a big fight ensues. Gary still refuses.
Enter Bobby, Mary & Sadie.
I've often wondered why Gary would even let them in, but I think it was because Mary & Sadie were there. He probably never dreamed that they would be violent with him. He had helped Mary many times as well as Bobby.
That was his last mistake. Again...the element of surprise.
Shorty had already expressed the fact that he was afraid of the Family and had stopped living at the ranch, he was only working there.
Why he got in the car with Tex & Clem is beyond me. They came up with some dumb excuse about needing to go get some parts.
That one I can't figure out. Unless they promised him something else.
Interview with Gregg Jakobson, friend of Dennis Wilson.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3937508/raw-interview-gregg-jakobson/
Venus said>>>>Wait a minute--wasn't Charlie the only one to enter? I keep thinking that he tied them up and then sent the others in. Now I'm confused as to why Leno would cooperate with the little weasel (my apologies to any weasels that might be reading the board, no insult intended), was Rosemary being threatened at the time?<<<<<<<
Hi Venus, I always thought that too...until I read that stinking Tex's book for free on his website. I think the reason we all think Charlie went in alone is because it's pretty well established that charlie was alone when he initially left the others at the car.
My understanding from the baby killer's book is that Charlie left the car, crossed the lawn, looked in the living room windows, then got Tex, and the two of them entered the house through the side door...the door on the fireplace side of the house, the right side, away from the driveway. The door opened into the dining room, off the living room.
So they entered together, if we believe the baby killer...
You know, i wanted to say earlier and lost my thought, I think it's important to remember...regarding the first question of why the victims gave in so easily, i know that might have been directed at the Cielo victims, but i thought of Rosemary.
If ugly old horseface would come out of denial, i think she'd have to admit that Rosemary fought like hell...there she was tied down to the lamp, pillowcase over her head, the lamp's cord around her neck (can you imagine???!!) hysterical hearing her husband being killed, and she fought those girls, tried to swing the lamp at them, fought damn hard...
katie8753 said...>>>>>>
Shorty had already expressed the fact that he was afraid of the Family and had stopped living at the ranch, he was only working there.
Why he got in the car with Tex & Clem is beyond me. They came up with some dumb excuse about needing to go get some parts.<<<<<<<<
I know Katie. It doesn't make sense, does it. I didn't quote your last sentence, but you could be on to something there...they may have promised him something, they likely lied to him.
Wasn't it Ruby Pearl that said Shorty was afraid of the family? Think i've read somewhere that she said he asked a few times if he could sleep at her place. Poor Shorty.
Thanks V717, but I couldn't get the video to work????
Marliese you're right. Shorty did tell Ruby that he was afraid of the family and he stayed with her a few times. I think that his plan was to just get away from the ranch period, but it was his only livelihood at the time other than bit parts.
I think that he was hearing bits and pieces of the bragging about murder and he was putting 2 + 2 together. I don't think he was the one who snitched to the police like Charlie said.
Although he should have just gone to the police and tell them what he suspected. But I think he was just afraid of the consequences. As well he should have been.
Both hits at Cielo Drive and Waverly Drive started out with a guy sleeping on the couch.
It's a lot easier to overtake and confuse a sleepy person in the early morning hours than it is to attack someone in broad daylight while they're out doing yard work or something. Talk about not having a "fair fight" from the get-go.
It's pretty cowardly if you ask me.
I tend to agree with Katie and Marliese about allot of their views, and I especially share Marliese's revulsion regarding Clem and his freedom. They say Grogan got out because he was to stupid or hopped up to know what he was doing. I think it was because Shorty wasn't a famous actress or heiress or millionare grocer. Shorty got shafted, plain and simple.
I am vague on the whole Bret/Clem thing, when did it happen? And has there been any update on Grogan since then? Not that he should be out, but it makes no sense that Bruce is still in jail and Grogan has been walking free for the past 25 years.
sbuch113, agree with your entire post...they were caught by surprise, if they had known what was coming, they surely would have fought from the start...and like you said...there was surprise, what's going on here, the victims...especially at the Tate house didn't know what was happening...and the minute the scene intensified...with the rope, get on the floor, Jay did protest, and was shot instantly. A gun changes everything.
Leary, Carol and Jean Harlow... please contact my email address...
Thanks...
Thanks Bobby!!! :)
Leary you can find out a lot of info on the Bret/Clem thing on the Col's site. I think that was back in 2009 or 2010, not sure.
I don't know what Clem is up to now. Haven't heard a word. LOL.
I think Bugliosi is wrong on this one, for sure. Too much actual physical evidence which points to others unknown tampering with the crime scene.
Jay was not shot in the head.
and this is important to a future post: Joe Dorgan: was he a Straight Satan or a Satan Slave? How do we know? Charlie says he was one? Where?
Thanks!
Hi Starship.
Does it say that Joe Dorgan was a Straight Satan in the first LaBianca police report? I think it says he was in a motorcycle gang, don't remember if it names it.
Hi Starship.
Please check your email... I just sent you an update on this issue.
Thanks... Lynyrd
I have often wondered if the victims didn't resist for several reasons:
Steven Parent was just taken clean by surprise. A guy flags him down as he's leaving. He probably started to wonder if he shouldn't have been visiting Garretson, shouldn't be on a movie stars property. What would you think if you were leaving a movie star's property, uninvited, and a big guy flagged you down? Bodyguard, right? Then the gun came through the window.
Jay and the others:
We know Abigail waved at Susan. Clearly, barefoot scruffy hippy girls walking through the house were nothing to be surprised at. Think how weird that is. But according to Joan Didion, this mixture of the hippy people and beautiful people happened all the time, due to drugs and 'no-one was surprised' at the Tate murders. We know that Bobby took Susan to the house of a guy in ....was it Cream? I can't remember, but the guy was mad with Bobby as Susan looked dirty and really fucked-up. Yet it was nothing to Abigail.
The point is, people like this were part of her scene, and therefore Jay and Sharon's scene too. When Susan bust in, waving a knife, saying "Quick! go in the living room, don't say anything!" they may have thought something was going on, they should do as she said, but they may not have thought she was actually dangerous. It could have been like:' Some guys are coming! They chased us up here! Here, grab a knife!" Susan thought her 'bold manner' intimidated them, but it's more likely she looked ridiculously thin and shabby and unthreatening.
And there is the other thing, the powerful possibility that Jay at least knew Tex. What did Jay say?
"What are you doing here?"
That could be: "What are YOU doing here (Tex)?"
Jay spoke to Tex without any fear. Indicating, he knew him. Imagine now, that tonight, you have a couple of friends round and suddenly the door opens and it's some people you vaguely know, or have done business with before, people who have never shown violence and are known for their love and peace ethic. They have a gun and knives, but three are girls and the guy, you've met him several times and had dealings regarding drugs with him.
Is it fear you feel? Or is it irritation, indignation, a sort of 'what-the-fuck?' feeling? "What are you doing here, Tex? Do you mind telling me just what the hell is going on? It's the middle of the fucking night. Why have you got a gun? Who is this dirty stoned girl and that knife looks nasty, she might cut herself. What do you mean lie down? My friend here is pregnant, are you blind? Here, give me that gun..."
Additionally, Jay was coked up. Coke=invincible. Not as invincible as methamphetamine, but still. This is a crazy drugs situation. We have Voytek and Abby on their MDA. Jay, coke. The girls, minds seriously altered by long acid use. Susan and Tex, meth. Plus adrenalin. What an awful combination. Poor Sharon had to see this all without anything to help. A big dose of reality.
Actually Voytek did resist, what is surprising is he didn't punch Susan's lights out, only wrestled her. So this makes it more likely that Susan really did stab him in the legs: as to why her knife was found clean, that's a mystery, unless it was not her knife. If he wasn't stabbed, why din't he he smack her head against the door? Conditioning, not to hit a woman?
Why did the la Biancas get tied up so easily? This really is a good one and it all hinges on whether Tex went in with Charlie or not. If not, then they must have succumbed to Charlie tying them up all alone, which seems absurd. Especially after the Tate killing.
Rosemary was very agitated about the Tate killing. Why? Did she know who had done it? She ran a dress shop, it had made her a millionaire, but was that a cover for selling acid as she was rumoured to do? Did she know Charlie? Did she believe him when he said he wasn't going to hurt her, just going to tie you up...why? To steal..what?
Sometimes wondered if there could have been really elaborate double bluffs. You know how sometimes a watchman will set up a robbery, and arrange for the robbers to tie him up and punch him?
What if Rosemary thought she'd arranged with Charlie to rip off the supplier. He comes in, ties up her and Leno, gives them a couple of taps and takes the stuff. This is why he goes in alone, and this is why he clearly knew where he was going. All the previous driving around and all the supposed 'attempted murders' were just a distraction technique so his stoned fucked-up acolytes wouldn't guess the real score. He had Linda drive aimlessly for a while, and then suddenly gave very specific directions.
Having walked in the unlocked back door (why would the disturbed Rosemary have allowed it to be open?) he finds them in there: perhaps Leno doesn't know what's going on and is ready to fight, but doesn't because Rosemary tells him not to resist. He takes the stuff or the money or whatever it is, goes out and sends in the killers, telling them, "don't let them know you are going to kill them".
I have always thought that Manson knew when the La Biancas would be home. I believe that either he left the ranch too early, as there were no clocks there, and therefore had to drive around and kill time, witness how Linda said that's what he did, after pretending to instigate the 'attempted' murders, and then suddenly his directions became very specific. When they got there, Linda said "Charlie you're not going to do that [the True house} are you?" "No" he answered, "The one next door" And got out, going straight up to the unlocked back door.
If this isn't evidence he went there as a plan...I mean, does that look random?
And why was that door unlocked? Rosemary had been so agitated about the murders the newspaper seller noticed it! Why was she so disturbed about a killing halfway across the city, anyway? If she knew who'd done it, wouldn't she have locked the bloody door?
There are many funny little things about the Labianca case.
The other 'attempt' that night, I firmly believe were distractions. If Charlie intended, as Bug contends, that others should do the dirty work, then would he really have killed a motorist in the middle of the street? Climbed from his car, chock full of noticeable hippies and shot a man dead in the road? How likely is it that this was real? How much more likely it was an attempt to make the kids think that the LaBianca killing was just one attempt, a random attempt that actually went ahead? It wasn't random at all.
He also knew that no-one would be coming by that night. The killers were amazingly relaxed. They took their time, they had a shower and a snack, fed the dogs...if I committed a murder, I'd be gone, man, solid gone.
I didn't think of the Susan answer, but she would have known when they were coming back from their trip, when Leno would be sitting reading the racing pages in his pyjamas, vulnerable...
It never gets old, this case. There's always room fro speculation.
fiona, author Maury Terry comes to basically the same conclusions as you do in his book THE ULTIMATE EVIL.
Ok, I'm jumping in here. Wasn't Voyteck the one who asked Tex "what are you doing here? It wasn't Jay who said it. According to all the stories, the first thing Jay said upon seeing them was for Tex to be careful of Sharon (as Tex yanked on her arm to pull her ionto the living room) He was then told to be quiet or he'd be shot. That's when Voyteck stated that Tex meant what he said. When they were told to lie on their stomachs and Sharon started to cry, Jay opened his mouth to defend her and was shot which is what Tex had said he'd do.
And.....Jay was not full of coke that night. I've seen his autopsy report. He only had painkillers in his system. While it's been said that Jay had been a drug user, who in Hollywood at that time didn't do them? Probably very few people. It doesn't mean that he (or any of the others) was constantly doing them. How could he have run a successful business which was in the process of being franchised if he was such a druggie?
schrecks book ties in with what fiona is writing, i would recommend it in that he presents the mafia thoery but upside down from what most manson mafia theorist's believe. manson wasn't killing for the mafia, he was killing mafia dealers--rosemary labianca and jay sebring. tate was a robbery gone bad. schreck believes it was all watson though not manson who planned it all.
No Voyteck said, "What time is it?" being still mostly asleep, and Tex told him to be silent or he'd be killed. It was Jay who, on seeing Tex, said "What are you doing here?". Of course, all of this could have been totally mis-reported and nothing can be trusted but it makes interesting speculation.
I have read The Ultimate Evil, but I don't remember these conclusions. Actually I didnt read it very well and skipped big parts. Have to give it another go.
In one book I have somewhere, it's a run-down of various cults, like a cheap encyclopedia, it mentions Manson several times. It says that Rosemary, Shorty Shea and Manson had all been seen together. Wouldn't that shed floods of light. It also called Rosemary 'a known LSD dealer".
I just have a feeling that was true. It's partly the dress shop supposedly having made her a millionaire. It would tie in so well with the drugs factor at the Tate house. It would explain Rosemary's severe alarm at the Tate killings. And since Leno was so in debt, maybe Rosemary had moved into drugs to try and clear that.
And the big one: in Helter Skelter, Rosemary told a friend "someone has been coming in while we are out. Things have been moved and the dogs are outside when they should be inside"
I remember reading that with chills and couldn't believe Bugliosi stated it and then dropped it! What is that but a creepy-crawl? That is so important! They were creepy-crawled, clearly. Then, Manson directed Linda there and had no trouble subduing them, maybe (unless Tex went in and then the perspective changes).
And if Shea knew Rosemary, and was involved with drugs too...he used to go off trying out for acting jobs. This would have brought him into contact with Hollywood people, perfect customers for mescaline or meth being manufactured by Hinman.
So, possibly that Shea transported drugs and nobody knew. He met Hollywood people and Hollywood people like drugs. Drugs are hard to get then. Manson can tell Shea: "While you're down there, why not see if a few of those guys would like some mescaline" And back comes Shea: "Yes they would, but some guys want acid, but don't want to deal with a little bit" so Mansn introduces Shea to Rosemary and arranges to get acid through her.
Then Voyteck gets involved, trying to set himself up as MDA dealer, treading on someone's toes...who was the dope dealer whipped at Cielo? Voyteck throwing his weight around, believing his movie star friends will keep him safe at an untouchable level....possibly Sebring, too, he had financial problems and was involved with coke...and Rosemary is creepy-crawled...then Voyteck and Jay are hideously murdered...did Manson get a warning from some very heavy types that these ppl had disrupted someone else's trade? Perhaps the Hinman-Manson-Rosemary-Voyteck-and-Sebring-Shea web was doing very nicely, exploiting Hollywood/music scene/Sebring's hairstyle clients...look what ppl they'd have all been able to reach. High-paying customers, not whiny street hippies always coming up short. These ppl got $ to burn.
Were they edging out serious people? I keep thinking of that whipped dope dealer story. If that really happened, it's the kind of thing that may have serious repercussions. Who did that dealer answer to? Was that a final straw?
I always think Voytek seems like an arrogant type. He had no money, no future, Abigail was going to leave him. But he knew drugs and he had celebrity contacts, and he had a lot of bounce and charm. Just the kind of person that thinks he can set up a dealing business and roll right over existing people.
So maybe Manson was given the option of putting out the lights of these people or facing the same himself. And he could then use his indoctrinated kids, who had no longer any concept of right or wrong to do the dirty work.
BTW, Poirot can you tell me where you read that thing about the logs at Waverly Drive? I have never heard that
>>>Fiona said: We know Abigail waved at Susan>>>
No we don't know that. As to what victim said what to who, or what demeanor was demonstrated, we only have the word of lying killers to rely on for that information. Which makes it dubious at best.
I don't believe that Jay knew Tex or that Rosemary knew Charlie.
>>>Beauders said: tate was a robbery gone bad.>>>
I disagree Beauders. Cielo Drive was a personal vendetta for Charlie. If they wanted money, why not knock over a liquor store? People don't have hundreds of dollars lying around the house. Charlie wanted them dead. Money was just a bonus.
I agree with Venus - I never read that Jay had anything other than painkillers in his system at the time of his murder.
beauders, Rosemary and Jay were Mafia dealers? I've never heard that before. If that were true, wouldn't the Mafia have retaliated against their killers?
that is schrecks theory in his new book, i don't know if i believe as he presents no sources. i just think it is an interesting theory and needs to batted about. a lot of people believe manson took a contract from the mob now schreck comes out and says watson was a rogue drug dealer trying to steal from syndicate dealers rosemary labianca and jay sebring. i just think it's interesting idea.
Hi Beauders.
>>>Beauders said: that is schrecks theory in his new book, i don't know if i believe as he presents no sources. i just think it is an interesting theory and needs to batted about.>>>
No sources means it didn't happen.
It's always interesting to make things up.
This Schreck person must have a vivid imagination. But you could wallpaper the walls of a mansion with people who want to invent facts or even fiction about this case.
>>>a lot of people believe manson took a contract from the mob now schreck comes out and says watson was a rogue drug dealer trying to steal from syndicate dealers rosemary labianca and jay sebring. i just think it's interesting idea.>>>
There's no proof of any of that stuff. Recently people have been trying to assert that Tex was the ringleader. But he was just a grunt under Charlie's thumb just like the rest.
The victims weren't the criminals in this case. Charlie ordered the murders for his own reasons. Those reasons we don't know.
It WAS Voyteck (not Jay) who asked Tex "what are you doing here?" to which Tex responded that he was the devil and was there to do the devil's business. This comment has been heard so many times and it was in response to Voyteck (once again, not Jay) asking it.
The first time Jay opened his mouth was to protest Tex's pulling Sharon into the living room. That's when he was told to be quiet or else and Voyteck told him that Tex meant it. He stayed quiet until Sharon started to cry upon being told to lie on her stomach on the floor. He opened his mouth to defend her (telling Tex to be careful of her as she was pregnant) and was shot.
I agree wtih Venus. I've always read that it was Voytek who asked Tex, first - What time is it? - then, second - What are you doing here?
Venus & Carol, according to Tex in his book "Will You Die For Me", Voytek said:
>>>"Who are you? What do you want?" I answered, "I'm the devil and I'm here to do the devil's business.">>>
Tex has denied ever saying "I'm the devil and I'm here to do the devil's business."
According to Tex about Jay:
>>>Sharon hesitated at the entrance to the living room, and I leapt forward and grabbed her arm, jerking her in after Sadie and Sebring while I flipped off the hall light with my elbow. (Avoid fingerprints, my mind had clicked.) When Sebring turned back, protesting my roughness, I told him, as I had Frykowski, that if he said one more word he would die. "He means it," Frykowski warned from the sofa.
I had already tied Frykowski's hands behind him with one end of the rope we'd brought and now I dragged the rope over to Sebring and tied him, while Sadie tied a towel around Frykowski's wrists according to my instructions. I wrapped the rope around Sebring's neck and then slung it up over one of the rafters that ran across the room and supported a loft above the fireplace. When I started to tie the rope around Sharon's neck, Sebring struggled forward in the chair he was seated in beside the fireplace, shouting for me to be careful of her.
"I told you, 'One more word and you're dead,' " I screamed and shot him.>>>
What I'm trying to say is that we will never know what any of the victims did or said that night. It's all based on the killer's testimonies. Which vacillates according to their own needs.
This I'm sure of:
The killers didn't know the victims. The victims didn't know the killers.
I'm sure of that. At least Tate/LaBianca.
Jay was not the "devil boy" that people want him to be. He was a professional hair dresser that took drugs occasionally like most everyone else in Beverly Hills in 1969.
He wasn't a mafia person. He wasn't selling drugs. He didn't do a drug burn on the goofy Manson family.
Neither did Voytek.
There are so many new upshoots that try to re-write this stuff and mold it into a new version.
You just have to laugh it off because it won't take root...not with longtime researchers.
So true, Katie. I didn't remember the "exact" words that were used. I just knew it wasn't Jay who said it. It just irritates me how these poor victims are still being over-analyzed and insulted for the fact that they died as a result of some a$$holes who now want our pity and permission for them to be released. Nope, not gonna happen!!
Good point about people trying to mold things into a new version.
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