Seriously Friends... this phone interview is the Bomb!
Harold True: "You Can't Ascribe Reason to Crazy People"
==============================================
Harold and a friend (Ernie "Buddy" Baltzer) that he lived with on Waverly.
Thanks Bob! AHahahaha
129 comments:
I'm sorry folks, but beyond informational... this is hands-down THE funniest footage I've ever listened to.
I listened to this shit 6 times... and I'm still amused.
Interviewer:
"Does that fly".
Harold:
"That's a lead fucking balloon"!
AHahahaha
"Look Lady, I'm no idiot... I've got a college degree... and I know a few things about life, law, and myself... and I KNOW people when they're Nuts"!
AHahahahahaha
I'm crying over here!
"Tex Watson was the biggest wimp of all... he's a Mama's boy". LOLOL
Lynyrd this is great! Who is that lady interviewer? She sounds like a real bitch. She's trying to make him admit that Suzanne knew Tex?
I LOVE it that he keeps saying there's no connection between the Labianca's and the Manson family. Supports my beliefs all along.
This guy is a real hoot! Can you imagine partying with this guy back in the 60's?? HA HA HA.
Hi Bobby. Good to see you!!
There used to be a video of Harold talking about Charlie wanting to move in with him (I think before they landed at Spahn's) and he did make the comment that he couldn't handle all those weird chicks. LOL.
Hey Bob!!!
Great to see ya!
Honestly... I was just going to ask about you last night (on the last thread)... but then decided you could be on vacation or something... and it was probably best to keep my mouth shut. LOLOL
Speaking of which... I wonder where Marliese and 8/9 Baby are?
Heck... I haven't seen Stella in a dog's age.
Stella... you still tuning-in from Canada?? LOLOL
Bob said:
>>>>" I need to hear more of Harold".<<<<
I do too.
According to Harold... "he knew Charlie from day one".
According to Harold... "he met Manson on Pacific Coast highway, straight out of Terminal Island"!!!!
I never knew this stuff...
I always thought Harold was just some incidental contact... who "happened" to live next door to the LaBianca's for a short time, before Leno was even there.
A few said... "he may have met Charlie at a party once".
According to Harold at least... he knew Manson a hell of a LOT better than that.
I don't know how "credible" Harold is... but, he certainly sounds convincing.
I wonder if Starship could quantify the depth of Harold's "credibility" for us?
... or give his opinion anyway.
Always great to have his input....
Aside from all my joking... there's TONS of great information packed-into this ten minute footage.
I fully intend to pick this thing apart over time.
I'm strapped for time right now... but, I have a bit more information to follow.
I learned a LOT about Harold, and several things listening to this, and yes... I need to hear more from Harold as well!!
Lynyrd that was very interesting that he said he met Manson right after he got out of prison, right on the highway. I think he said he had a friend that just got out too or something.
I had never heard that. I always thought they met thru drug connections or something and ended up partying together.
It's also interesting that he notes that the LaBianca house next door was empty while he was there. This supports my theory also that Charlie was not the "hippy next door" that Leno was having a problem with in regards to too much noise over there.
Wasn't Judy Hanson a PI?
I think she also worked on the McMartin pre-school case..
Kimchi, is Judy Hanson the one doing the interview?
She also mentioned another person I'm not familiar with. Do you know who that is?
Well, when she first introduced herself, she said that "Ernie Baltzell" gave her his number or something like that..Ernie or "Buddy" was one of the room mates on Waverly, he's in that still picture that LS put up.
Kimchi, she's asking about a guy named Joe Kreiger or Kreager. At around 5:30 or so. I can't understand the name. She wants to know if he knew Charlie.
He says he's on an Indian reservation in New Mexico. Ever heard of him?
I love the way he starts it out by saying "is there any money in this for me?" HA HA.
I was kind of confused by what he said about Bugliosi trying to arrest him for murder. At least, I think that's what he said. I'd never read that.
oh yeah, I heard that too...it will be next on my agenda, never heard that before, or the other Charlie from New Mexico...
Yeah, I knew he (True) was arrested, or taken in for questioning regarding the case..I think it's in HS...
Kimchi, I know he was questioned in the Labianca killings because he lived next door, but I never thought he was charged with murder. Is that in the HS book? I'll have to bone back up on that.
I've read that book about 10 times, but every time I read it, I read something I forgot. HA HA.
Yeah, me too... I've read them at least 2-3 times and I find something new each time..TMI..
This guy is an absolute trip...
he just became my favorite person in this case in 9 minute and change..
he did point out that Charlie went to two places and two places only and those were places he knew...
( if you count/include Gary that makes 3 for 3)
L/S- anyone else up near my hometown in NY/NJ area
be safe and stay dry!!
Starship I believe that includes you!!
Wow. Kudos to the woman interviewer, who stood her ground. My immediate response is, don't do drugs...it clouds your ability to reason and make good choices.
My second response is, let me think about that.
(still in Jersey. Bring it Irene. Yo Ho)
I got a good fucking lawyer that's how I got out... I told them to shove it up there fucking ass...
This guy could be Tommy Chong for all I know..
I am going to listen to this interview every morning before work...
I cant stop smiling listening to this...
This lady did hang tough lol
in the first few seconds- he said forget it if no money was involved, and then she still got almost 10 minutes of the most priceless stuff I have heard on this in a long time...
Correct me if I´m wrong but there is a rumour that Harold True fled the country for a while during the Tate/LaBianca trial.
I love all you guys!!! Stay safe!
As Carol Burnett would say: (Ear tug) MMmmmmmwaaaaaahhhhhhhh! Kiss! HA HA.
Saint said:
>>>>"I am going to listen to this interview every morning before work"<<<<
>>>>"10 minutes of the most priceless stuff I have heard on this in a long time"<<<<
Seriously... I've listened to this footage more times, than I'd dare admit... and it never gets old.
I might as well put it on a revolving loop.
AHahahaha
This guy missed his calling as a stand-up comic.
OK... some serious observations to follow....
Yours truly, "picks it apart".
Observation #1:
The following quote, reminds me directly of our "Laurel Canyon", and Cass Elliot discussion:
>>>>"Have you ever had a party of 300 people, and remembered EVERYONE who was there??"<<<<
That was basically my point, regarding the Laurel Canyon gatherings.
With very LARGE... frequent gatherings... who's to say for sure... whether Manson didn't meet a few folks from Cielo... if not incidentally?
Who could possibly claim to know (for certain) EVERY person who visited (or didn't visit)?
Just a thought...
Observation #2:
>>>>"You can't ascribe reason to crazy people"<<<<
As I always say... "we'll never make complete sense of an inherently senseless situation".
Or, as Tom said on another blog... "think long, think wrong".
You definitely have to "read between the lines" a little bit, in these situations.
It's never going to make complete sense to sane people... because the actions are inherently insane.
When folks start getting over-board with specifics and minutia... it can become an obstacle.
A woman with OCD once said to me... "I never finish anything, because nothing is ever perfect enough".
Sometimes, you have to take things at face value.
"You can't ascribe reason to Crazy people".
I say... a very apt quote.
If you start "over-thinking" this stuff, you can end-up in Russia.
Observation #3:
>>>>"You gotta look at why, all these people were together"<<<<
Something to ponder...
I think what he's suggesting here... is that the "sane" folks... the "balanced" folks... tried "the family" and left... while the "unbalanced" folks stayed-on.
He's basically saying... the common thread was CRAZY.
He almost speaks as though these folks "deserved" each other.
One things for certain throughout... Harold definitely thinks they're all bonkers!!
Hard to argue...
Observation #4:
Here's the BIG one.
According to Harold... Booga-loosi (LOL)... had him BOOKED... thrown in jail... and attempted to prosecute him as a conspirator!!
This is pretty HUGE news to me... assuming it's true (pun intended).
I mean... assuming Harold has all his brain cells functioning, and this is true facts... that kinda makes Bugliosi look like a maniac in my book.
He EVEN went after Harold True as a conspirator??
That seems highly "irregular" to me.
Tell me it isn't true.
Saint said:
>>>>"L/S- anyone else up near my hometown in NY/NJ area
be safe and stay dry!!"<<<<
Thanks Saint!
I'm afraid my garden is history... and I've learned my lesson about parking under the half-dead oak tree! LOL
Thanks Again...
okay harold true met manson and the family through phil kaufman a prison buddy of manson's who sent manson upon his release from prison to universal studio's. kaufman has a book out titled "road mangler deluxe." very good and a must read.
bugliosi threatened people left and right so it does not surprise me he threatened true. he so scared paul watkins with the death penalty that watkins said anything bugliosi wanted to hear. the guy who made the "faces of death" (nick bougas) dvd's has a cassette tape of watkins admitting as much shortyly before his death.
judi hansen is a private detective who was/is a friend of pat krenwinkel. she also worked for doris tate and told her everything krenwinkel told her about the case. hansen in this interview was working with bill nelson--that's who she's talking to in the background.
true was in the peace corps during the trial and was supposedly dying from his excesses in the late 60's at the time this tape was recorded so i don't think he's still alive unless that was another bill nelson lie.
Beauders said:
>>>>"okay harold true met manson and the family through phil kaufman a prison buddy of manson's who sent manson upon his release from prison to universal studio's. kaufman has a book out titled "road mangler deluxe." very good and a must read".<<<<
Sounds like a good book.
I'm curious... is the book about Kaufman's connection/friendship with Manson specifically throughout... or about Kaufman specifically... and Manson gets a chapter or two?
I'm familiar with the whole Kaufman/prison buddy/universal studios connection.
But, I'd never heard that Kaufman was Harold's friend as well.
Kaufman must be the person Harold is speaking of... when he said, "he had another friend getting out".
Harold picked-up Manson on the pacific coast highway, immediately following Manson's release from Terminal Island... and was also friends with Kaufman.
It's amazing that information, and Harold himself, are not mentioned in more places.
Maybe "Booga-loosi" had more information, than we give him crdit for... LOLOL
Harold makes it clear (regarding the Manson Family):
"I knew everyone one of them".
He certainly doesn't speak very highly of them however.
Not sure if there's any real significance to those two statements however... LOL
Beauders said:
>>>>"bugliosi threatened people left and right so it does not surprise me he threatened true. he so scared paul watkins with the death penalty that watkins said anything bugliosi wanted to hear. the guy who made the "faces of death" (nick bougas) dvd's has a cassette tape of watkins admitting as much shortyly before his death".<<<<
Jeez... I'd LOVE to hear THAT cassette recording.
Beuaders... if you have a link to where it can be heard... please e-mail it to me, or just list it here...
Beauders said:
>>>>"judi hansen is a private detective who was/is a friend of pat krenwinkel. she also worked for doris tate and told her everything krenwinkel told her about the case. hansen in this interview was working with bill nelson--that's who she's talking to in the background"<<<<
Beauders... post after post...
YOU ALWAYS AMAZE ME!
Where do you get all this information?!
You're nothing short of incredible, when it comes to facts, and quality information.
You last four posts... pack more information, than most researchers find in a year.
Like I said... incredible.
Beauders... you ROCK, plain and simple.
Hi Beauders. You say that Judi Hansen was/still is a friend of Pat and also told Doris Tate stuff Pat told her. What stuff did she tell her? Do you know? I would be very interested to hear that.
"If she met Manson, she woulda been on that big black bus, with the rest of them Yahoos"! AHahaha
Harold pretty much sums the family up with one word: crazy. I'll take his word for it. HA HA.
This guy is a scream!
Yes, I concur...this interview is a hoot and a half!
There is a movie with Johnny Knoxville about Graham Parsons and Phillip Kaufman is portrayed in that, I believe.
This Judi Hansen PI person? If she worked for Doris Tate, and Krenwinkle told her (the PI) everything she knew, then is this why Doris told Ed Sanders, that fug, that she believed that Sharon wasn't supposed to be at Cielo that night?
I would not be surprised if VB tried to play hardball with Harold True to try to shake the trees to find out about motive...etc...after all there are just too many coincidences here for my own liking...both Manson and the girls partied at True's (and here he claims the Waverly residence of the LaBianca's was empty at the time...after Leno's mother died? Before he and Rosemary moved in? Also, Linda Kasabian partied there too...although independently of the Family...she hadn't hooked up with them yet. Eerie for sure.
But if we take Harold True at his word, then for me it's over...my Manson obsession is over. The motive is now clear. The Family was just nucking futs!
I'm too far upstate this weekend for Irene to be more than just some wind and rain (so we think)...but know many who have to have been evacuated from NYC and LI...my daughter is at college right off the Long Island Sound...
But I hope all of us in harm's way, especially a certain Mr. Robinson of Staten Island will be safe this weekend as well.
If you read the Road Mangler by Phil Kaufman, he mentions Harold True quite a bit.
heres a question for the mansonologists out there.
in the first hendrickson film about 15 minutes in theres an interview with a guy named phil phillips and it says he was charles manson cellmate for ten years i'm assuming in terminal island.
is that phil kaufman?
in all the books i've read i've never heard of a guy named phil phillips who was mansons cellmate
just wondering
harold trues voice reminds me of bigfoot from the howard stern show.
The guy who talks about Charlie being a guy you could walk right up to and say fuck you punk...
is not Phil Kaufman...
the one in the bedroom with the other younger people in the room..
he says Charlie is on the " pay no mind" list...
Anyone know how to burn this onto a cd? Gotta have this for those long drives stuck in traffic!!!
I think I "might" have the Paul Watkins interview Beauders mentioned. I have a disc titled "Paul Watkins-Reflections July 88". Gonna give it a listen.....if anything worthwhile I'll give y'all a link to download it!
Charlie Manson, as much as people for some reason love him, is way overated. An uneducated schizophrenia rambling on about what people in the late 60's thought was of significance.
But he is funny. My favorite is when he can't pronounce big words and just says youcannafranciscombatrommdeesiameeshadommayobahma. His distaste for the upperclass and its culture is genuine.
saint-thats the guy
>>>Tom said: But he is funny. My favorite is when he can't pronounce big words and just says youcannafranciscombatrommdeesiameeshadommayobahma. His distaste for the upperclass and its culture is genuine.>>>
Yes that's right Tom. There's a lot of 2-or-more-syllable words he can't pronounce. Ouch!!! LOL.
He does have a distaste for the upper class, as they do for him.
Kind of like looking at a scurrying cockroach.
HA HA HA.
Hello Mr. Lynyrd. We meet again. Nice blog.
I see Saint is here.
Saint-- remember that short list, I mentioned at Colonel's? I'll elaborate. The following people have impressed me with facts, literacy, and a fucking brain--- Cats, Vera, Frank, Starship, Lynyrd and Beauders. To quote Harold--- "The rest of these fucking Yahoos couldn't poor piss out of a boot". You want to learn something? Communicate with literate people.
If he hadn't found those kids on a California highway, Charlie Manson would be just another vagrant in and out missions until he did something serious enough to get locked up.
Instead, he is, Charles Manson.
The fickle finger of fate.
Back to the interviewer's question.
Why indeed would Rosemary LaBianca's daughter want Tex fucking Watson released? Any answers?
Why do they call you dickhead?
How bout them Mets! Only 21.5 games out of first place.
Tom, you're exactly right. If Charlie hadn't amassed a group of clinging vines, he would have just been another bum on the street corner, strumming his guitar for nickels in an old soup can.
He was in the right place at the right time. It was a happening scene at the Haight. Young people were restless and really had no direction. The only thing they had in common was that they hated the government and their parents, who kicked them out because they were all bums.
Charlie was like a beacon to them. Like a porch light to moths. Like dead matter to maggots.
Charles Manson is nothing but a hustling, fast talking, pimp, a 2-bit carnival barking con man who attracted a bunch of losers.
And he still does.
>>>Dickhead said: Why indeed would Rosemary LaBianca's daughter want Tex fucking Watson released? Any answers?>>>
Dickhead, if you've been around for very long, you would know that we already addressed this.
My take on it is that Suzanne was involved in the murders. Through Joe Dorgan.
I know on the tape recording, Hanson kept pressing True to know if Tex knew Suzanne.
I agree with Harold True. There's no fucking way that stupid bitch knew Tex.
Why would she rally to get him out? I'm going to say that she was afraid that Tex might blab at some point if she didn't mama him. Maybe because she was afraid that Tex knew the truth. There is no statute of limitations on murder.
That's a whole big ball of WRONG right there!!
The fact that she would rally to get the man who stabbed her mother to death out of prison is abhorrent.
Think about it...won't you?
Hi Matt!
I have no idea who the guy in the original Manson footage actually is... but, I know who you're referring to...
The guy relates a an old conversation with Charlie.
He says:
"We're in hell".
Charlie replies:
"Yeah, ain't it groovy". LOL
THAT'S the guy you're talking about.
I have no idea who that is... but, pretty certain it's not Phil Kaufman.
Here's a photo of Kaufman (a mugshot actually), from Terminal Island.
http://charlesmansonatwar.tumblr.com/post/2833883925/phil-kaufman-is-mansons-old-prison-buddy-from
Here's a website with information on Kaufman, and a later photo of him with Zappa.
(He aged weird, 'cuz it doesn't even look like the same dude to me).
Evidently he was in Zappa's "Baby Snakes" video.
http://www.united-mutations.com/k/phil_kaufman.htm
Sorry... I had to re-post that Matt.
The link for the terminal island photo, didn't work right.
The new link is actually better... it has a Terminal Island mugshot of both Kaufman AND Manson side-by-side.
http://charlesmansonatwar.tumblr.com/post/2833883925/phil-kaufman-is-mansons-old-prison-buddy-from
It doesn't look anything like the guy in the Manson film, to me.
Lurch said:
>>>>"I think I "might" have the Paul Watkins interview Beauders mentioned. I have a disc titled "Paul Watkins-Reflections July 88". Gonna give it a listen.....if anything worthwhile I'll give y'all a link to download it"!<<<<
Great!
I'd LOVE to hear that audio!!
Thanks Lurch!!
Tom said:
>>>>"If he hadn't found those kids on a California highway, Charlie Manson would be just another vagrant in and out missions until he did something serious enough to get locked up.
Instead, he is, Charles Manson.
The fickle finger of fate".<<<<
Yeah...
Marlin Marynick (psychiatric nurse) was asked his impression of Manson.
He said (papraphrasing):
"Manson is just like one of the many homeless vagrants/transients I've interfaced with".
Manson likely would have been in-and-out of jail... (mostly in)... for lesser crimes.
Tom said:
>>>>"Charlie Manson, as much as people for some reason love him, is way overated. An uneducated schizophrenia rambling on about what people in the late 60's thought was of significance".<<<<
I agree.
He's pretty smart.
Although... he's much better at identifying problems, than offering viable solutions.
He was a decent singer (years ago).
He's still a pretty good guitarist today.
He's funny as hell, and actually very likable on a personal level.
But, I personally don't see the whole guru, shaman, genius stuff myself.
I think folks "looking" for a guru, shaman or genius... someone who wants, or needs a figure like that in their life... might see him as such.
Personally, I don't see it.
Maybe, he really IS a refection of what people want him to be!! AHahahaha
Hello Dickhead!
Welcome to the blog!!
Thanks for the compliment.
It's unfortunate the compliment has to come at the expense/degradation of others... but hell, I'll take a compliment any way I can get it. LOLOL
As you said... "we meet again".
BTW Saint...
Thanks for the "plug" over at Liz's place.
I just noticed that...
Catherine Share was a pretty good singer, I thought. Nothing came of it. Steve Grogan had some success with the Rhythm Jive or whatever the hell they were.
Paulie Watkins and Brooks Poston were very good. They had a sense of time and place, if you will.
i'm afraid we will never hear the paul watkins cassette bougas is a collector and will never share. maybe upon his death his girlfriend or a family member will sell it, who knows if they will even know what it is.
i have been researching and writing a book on the manson case since 1994. the book is almost done and since it is an encyclopedia topping out at approx. 1600 pages i feel as though i have a phd. in mansonism. the next book will be on jonestown, which was my original passion in cult land. i lived in the bay area at the time-they were from s.f. and fourteen years old so it really got in my imagination but there is only so far you can go with jonestown so i moved on to manson. on jonestown i only masters degree in.
>>Lynyrd said: Yeah...
Marlin Marynick (psychiatric nurse) was asked his impression of Manson.
He said (papraphrasing):
"Manson is just like one of the many homeless vagrants/transients I've interfaced with".
Manson likely would have been in-and-out of jail... (mostly in)... for lesser crimes.>>
What does that even mean? I've already said that Manson was an idiot vagrant that was in and out of the city, gathering a flock.
Marlin Marynick?? That fucker can kiss his own ass. He didn't think this shit up.
Beauders, actually the Jonestown masscare is more interesting than the tick tick stabbing that Charlie drew.
Jim Jones killed almost 1,000 people. They believed his bullshit.
They were brainwashed.
I know that people don't believe in brainwashing, but they were.
They all killed themselves.
If they weren't brainwashed, then some incindiary asshole fairy told each and every one of them to drink the fucking koolaid.
And they did.... but they weren't brainwashed. HA HA HA HA HA HA.
oh i very much believe in brainwashing jonestown, manson, patty hearst, mk ultra, etc. it exists in varying forms. the manson women where definately brainwashed. forget about the murders why would live like they did and let themselves be treated the way they were--manson is a classic woman hater. the guys i think murdered for their own reasons--watson has come out and said he murdered so brutally because he wanted to raise his status with the women. he wanted them to feel about him what they felt for manson.
also jim jones got people to kill their own children- the parents administered the poison to their own kids, i don't know if manson could accomplish that.
Even worse, at Jonestown, not everyone died willingly - there were many adults who did not want to die and even pleaded for Jones to change his mind. But there were some who were such blind fanatics that they forced the reluctant ones to take the poison, or just shot many of them. I saw a documentary a year or so ago that interviewed the survivors; people who ran into the jungle and so on, as well as Jones' son. Before that, I wasn't clear on this part - many of those who died at Jonestown were shot. Somehow it seems even worse, to me. The true believers didn't just go along willingly, they dragged the doubters along with them! That is really insane "devotion", a monstrous kind of brainwashing.
Plus, the ones with second thoughts as Jones went crazy(er) could not just slip away into the jungle of Guyana - like some Family members got out of Spahn and Barker when things got too dark for them. Then when they called for help, well, we all know what happened. Some surely went along because they felt they had no other choice. That is a powerful part of brainwashing or programming in a cult situation. I agree Jonestown is a textbook example of this stuff.
i think ionce wrote on this blog that old black women were the majority in jonestown. many were not mobile one actually survived because she slept through it! she wrote a book titled "the onliest one alive." these women were trapped once they left san francisco. the next largest group was the infants and children and they definately were murdered. but again to murder your own children that is feed them poison and then hold them as they died, that could only happen mind control.
the guy in the footage is phil phillips a cellmate of manson's. his real first name is thomas. hendrickson has some very interesting material on him in the book. he seems to have disappeared shortly after being filmed.
i have no idea what mrs. tate and judi hansen spoke about, but i'm sure it got back to krenwinkel and that is why i don't know krenwinkel and hansen still visit or are friends.
Hey all!
Here's a download link to a disc called Paul Watkins Reflects July 88. www.megaupload.com/?d=L8OOADVO
I also have an old tape of Paul and Brooks playing together. Problem is I have no way to transfer the cassette onto my computer. If anyone out there can and wants to, contact me and I'll send ya a copy of the tape.
hey beauders,
there is a book on Jonestown that is coming out in april I believe.
It's supposed to be pretty high profile and explosive.
Hi Beauders & 8/9 Baby!
I'm so glad you agree that it is possible to brainwash people, and these Mansonites were indeed brainwashed.
There are so many people on these blogs who won't admit it for whatever reason.
Yes people murdered their own children for Jim Jones. And those who didn't cooperate were shot unless they ran away. What a nightmare!
Lurch, thanks for the link. It says it's not available. Do you have another link?
Starship, thanks for the heads up on the book. That's got to be very interesting.
I've seen documentaries on this subject and it's quite fascinating to see the slow progression into madness for everyone concerned.
Why does anyone join a cult?????
Katie said:
Why does anyone join a cult?????
From past/present experience, some are looking for their true "messiah" and think they've found them.
And they aren't brainwashed, I don't buy that..more like misguided, when they are in a group, you see a whole lot of comradery.
What I'd like to know is, once they are in, how do you get them out?
I'm talking about current day cults..and there are many.
Hi Kimchi.
I think the only way to get someone out of a cult is to try to separate them from the herd and and hope that by your actions and words that some sense will seep through.
But I'm guessing it would depend on the person's state of mind BEFORE they joined the cult. If this cult behavior is something they'd been seeking, then your chances of getting them out might be slim.
Maybe my definition of brainwashing is different from other people's.
For instance, if I started hanging out with a group of people who thought differently than I do on certain important issues, I would just stop hanging out with them because of boredom, or certain basic values that I was raised with and will never relinquish.
But if you have a person who has a weaker mind, easier to lead, easier to persuade, or maybe some other reason to even listen to nonsense, then slowly but surely that person's thinking is taken away and replaced with new behavioral thoughts and actions, based upon the learnings of this new group. I call that brainwashing.
I see what your saying Katie, it was just a weird situation of how the person fell into or "discovered" hmmm "the truth"...
This person is college educated, moral upbringing, smart, "had" a great career and gave up everything...haha, sound familiar?
This group's anticipation is the apocalypse...in other words, no tomorrows, no future, just the "rapture" I think they call it.
There used to be "deprogrammers" LOL back in the '70's...wonder what happened to those guys or was it a scam?
Remember the "Moonies"? LOL... All the parents were hiring "deprogrammers" to get their kids out of the belief.
Back on track here -
The three renting the Waverly house was True, Ernest (Buddy) Baltzell and Allen Swerdloff according to Sanders. (Page 275 in my 1990 copy)"
If you notice, in the first part of that audio, Judy mentions Ernie Baltzell..that's where she got Harold's contact info.
I think "Buddy" was the guy on Harold's shoulder in the picture..just my opinion.
Sorry bout the typo on the Wakins interview link....here's the correct link:
www.megaupload.com/?d=L8OOADV0
If you're typing it in, the first two "O"s are capital o's, the last is a zero
>>>Kimchi said: This person is college educated, moral upbringing, smart, "had" a great career and gave up everything...haha, sound familiar?>>>
Yes Kimchi, it does sounds very familiar.
I don't understand cult behavior. I guess that's why I would never be in one. I'm an independent thinker, and can only be persuaded to change my view if the person presents a case that seems logical, but doesn't obstruct my views of life and religion in general.
Cults have several common denominators, one of which is that they mis-interpret the Bible to satisfy their own messages. This has been done ad infinitum.
I don't want to get into a real deep religious discussion here, but will suffice it to say that when the cult leader sets himself up as "the messiah", and people buy into it, then they haven't read the Bible or maybe don't understand it, and are easily "tweaked" into a different channel, thinking that maybe this guy is "the messiah". It gets really complicated and there is no "quick fix".
This is the oldest shell game in town. It's just below carnival barkers. Look at the recently convicted Warren Jeffs. Cult leader deluxe.
I've heard of de-programmers and don't know if that's a reality, but I really and truly believe that if you want to get someone out of a cult, you have to separate them from the group for a long enough period to "de-program" them yourself. And it's not overnight...just like the brainwashing wasn't overnight.
>>>The three renting the Waverly house was True, Ernest (Buddy) Baltzell and Allen Swerdloff according to Sanders. (Page 275 in my 1990 copy)">>>
I've always wondered how these 3 bums could rent a house in Los Feliz. From what I've read, these houses were very expensive homes. What would the rent be on this house back in 1967 or 1968? I haven't a clue. Even pooling 3 resources, it would have been an uphill climb for 3 bums who I'm assuming don't have jobs.
Course that's a lot of assuming. I don't know that much about these guys. Maybe they had "9 to 5's" and just partied their asses off on the weekends. How would I know. HA HA.
Lurch, thanks!!! I pasted it into my browser and found it.
Thanks again!!
Katie said:
I've always wondered how these 3 bums could rent a house in Los Feliz. From what I've read, these houses were very expensive homes. What would the rent be on this house back in 1967 or 1968? I haven't a clue. Even pooling 3 resources, it would have been an uphill climb for 3 bums who I'm assuming don't have jobs.
Dealing drugs maybe?
Kimchi, you probably absolutely right.
In listening to Mr. True, it sounds like he's got a few bricks short of a load.
Which makes him down to earth and funny as hell.
But, as to vocation, I don't see him earning big bucks as a 3-piece suit. HA HA.
Yeah, it's more like he's sitting on the street corner with a big overcoat with big pockets, saying "What's your poison?
How much will you spend? Are you old enough?"
I can just see him partying with Charlie. HA HA.
Charlie: Don't you know I'm Jesus Christ and I can make rain fall down on you if you don't die for me?"
Harold: What the fuck are you talking about? Did you bring the sausages like I asked you to? You know, you keep crashing my pad with your curds, but you don't bring refreshments.
How many times do I have to tell you the rules??"
HA HA HA!!!
Harold: "you know you're really downing my high...ceasing my buzz with all your "apocolyptic" talk.
Why don't you for once chip in for the drugs, chips and beer? All you do is bring these broads over and play your git-tar. That's getting really lame buddy. Pull your weight asshole."
HA HA HA.
Okay it's off to bed.
I really hope that all you guys/gals on the east coast fared well.
Stay safe!
Night!
Hey, the Jonestown book I referrred to comes out much earlier than I thought...in October according to this:
http://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Lives-Deception-Survival-Jonestown/dp/1416596399/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2
Hi Bobby. I remember that show In Living Color, but don't remember the skit. I'll see if it's on You Tube.
Hi Starship. Thanks for the heads up on the Jonetown book!!
HA HA HA. Thanks Bobby!! That's a hoot!!!
good evening L/S Katie and all
no problem on the plug L/S..
you should put yourself on your "wall of fame"
This may be my fav post of all time...
Seriously- I thought hard for something that was more fun than this- and couldn't come up with one
it became and Instant Classic to me the second I started listening to it- really from the first or second line out of his mouth..
D-head- Thanks for the tips- and the heads up...
after 3 years on a few of these blogs- I only really know a couple and I agree that L/S and Pritash( Starship) are both very easy to deal with and very interesting and informed...
I belong to Cats site but I only really go there to read the info and and posts- I dont contribute much...
Beauders I see on a few sites and read...
Vera I have only started to read lately and it is has been mostly controversy type stuff- but it doesn't mean she isn't right...
so I will definitely pay more attention to see what these people have to say, and maybe I won't agree with all of it...
but I certainly agree with enough of those you do recommend who I know to take another closer listen to those I do not...
Thanks for the advice
Katie- as the hostess with the mostess- Just wanted to throw you a hell as well :)
or a hello...
Hi St.!!!
>>>St. said: Katie- as the hostess with the mostess- Just wanted to throw you a hell as well :)>>>
I hope you meant "hello". HA HA HA.
Okay I guess our comments crossed!! I thought that is what you meant. :)
Okay everyone, I was just thinking.
Why in the world did Judi hammer away at Tex knowing Suzanne?
Beauders said that Judi was a friend of "Kernwinkel" and that she was in touch with Doris as well.
We all know that Doris was incensed by Suzanne's feeble attempt at getting Tex out.
Let's think back. I agree with Harold, there's no way in hell she knew Tex. Just no way.
In the early morning hours of August 10, 1969, Leno & Rosemary are driving home from Lake Isabella with Suzanne. They drop her off at her apartment around 1:30am or so.
Meanwhile, Charlie has been driving in circles all evening, seemingly to look for a place to hit.
Suzanne knows Leno like the back of her hand. She knows that when they dropped her off, he would go to get a paper from his friendly corner guy so he can read the dailies. She calculates that they will be home by around 2am.
Around 2:30am, Charlie seems to know exactly where he's going. He drives like a dart to a dartboard straight to the Waverly Drive address.
Folks, this can't be a coincidence. Starship, you and I had a talk about this a while back, that Charlie didn't stop and make a phone call. We do know that he got out of the car and walked around. How do we know he didn't use a pay phone and call Suzanne? How do we know that?
It's all too convenient. Suzanne was the ONLY person on earth who knew when the LaBiancas got home that night. And it wasn't more than 45 minutes later that Charlie showed up to say "hi" and kill them.
If Suzanne's only reason for trying to get Tex out was that because she was "saved" and had to "forgive" him, then why didn't she "forgive" Pat, Horseteeth and Charlie?
I didn't notice her rallying to get them out.
I'm telling you...there's something really fishy about this crap.
And Suzanne is the key to it.
St. Circumstance: I hope you're doing well. We miss your comments around here. Where ya been boy?
After listening to this over and over...
one question-
he says at one point that the only ones who knew where he lived were Charlie and a couple of the girls...
a few minutes later he yells that her knew ALL of them personally- he watched Charlie pick the girls up from the first one on ....
so this must mean either he is lying about one or the other...
or he spent a lot more time with them at other locations than I have ever read or heard anywhere else... if Tex wasn't at his house, and he was yelling about Tex, and he knew Tex personally- he would have had to met him at Wilson's- or Spahn, or one of those other places... and who knew True was more involved than being the guy who was ruled out as a motive because the Labiancas weren't living there at the time he did ( as he so eloquently points out) ....
is there something there???
When the interviewer pointed out Texs' proximity at other adresses To Suzanne... he really doesn't answer...
other than to reaffirm- he knew them all...
just a few minutes after saying only a few knew where he lived...
if he didn't meet the rest of them with Charlie at his house..
how and where did he get to know the rest of them ALL personally- as he claims????
hey look...
of EVERYONE I respect in this community...
NOBODY has a really good answer for how the Labiancas fit in....
so IF there was a motive at all- it isn't going to make any sense anyway until we know for sure and then can trace the dots to see how it came together...
is this a dot that needs to be counted and traced....
we have always said that after the fact- nobody would admit to knowing anyone- or being involved..
did this stoner slip up and let out more than he intended...
or is he just talking shit???
Well St., I do know that it's in the police reports that Rosemary told Suzanne to stop seeing Joe Dorgan or she was going to cut her off financially.
Now I don't know if Suzanne knew ANYONE in the Manson family. But I do know that Joe Dorgan did.
Is this a plot to be rid of Rosemary so Suzanne will inherit her money? Maybe Charlie got a chunk of it?
I've read that Rosemary's money and Leno's money (what money?) was separate. And their wills were separate.
I think that Suzanne offed her mother before she could cut her out of the will.
No matter if Harold knew about it or not.
St. you make a very good point.
True says that only Charlie and a couple of girls, plus Linda, knew where he lived.
Then he says he knew all of the girls, that he was there when he picked them up.
How did he do that? Was he on the black bus?
I agree. He gave way too much information. Now I can see why Bugliosi dragged him in. I can see why he wondered if True was involved.
I can't imagine that True had anything to do with the murders, but why did he say he knew all the girls? Makes no sense.
Katie said in part:
"inherit her money? Maybe Charlie got a chunk of it"?
Had things worked out the way Charlie wanted it originally...
could this have been about Gary???
patterns start to repeat when looking for any clue to explain something so unexplainable..
but do not want to reach either???
Was Charlie starting to hear there were some ways to " inherit " money??
Cappy- barker Ranch...
Squeaky- Spahn...
that would be four...
a coincidence???
or a dot to be counted and connected??
Tex was involved in both these killings....
Tex could know be tied to both...
maybe with his own motives outside of Charlie.. ( or as a way to satisfy Charlie)
The one thing that always struck- me and that you can read back on as long as I have been posting...
and True says it-
They went to two places they knew in L.A and that was it...
How did he know Tex so well if Tex wasn't at his house...
Why was his house one place of two they " knew well"
was maybe AC right about this all along???
At least in so far as that Charlie didnt exactly come up with the places or the reasons???
Here comes HELTER SKELTER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVl4XIM28cM
St., you're giving Tex way too much credit. He was a cretin...through and through. Charlie was the brains.
Inheritance money? Could be on to something. Has nothing to do with Tex.
As Harold said, he was a "mama's boy". And indeed he was. He never really got off that tit.
Hi V717. Interesting clip! Thanks!!!
V717, Those clips from that cheesy movie suck. Everything was backward. Plus most everything was wrong.
I wish that just one movie producer could get it right.
Just one.
All the Helter Skelter movies that have been/are being made. What a waste of time! Nobody takes it seriously enough to get it right!
When you walk into the Cielo Drive front door, you enter a foyer, then you turn to the LEFT to get into the living room, not to the RIGHT.
All the bedrooms that these people were in were to the LEFT of the front door. This was all backward.
If you go to the right, you go into the dining room, then the kitchen. Off that area was the freshly painted nursery. That's the window Tex entered. To the RIGHT of the front door.
You'd think that if someone was going to do a movie about this horrific murder, they'd at least do their homework.
Sheesh.
Well V717, I'm heading for the last roundup. I do thank you for the clip. Interesting stuff...for the most part.
Thanks St. We'll expound on that tomorrow!
See ya'll. Bye.....
"Now... if I may retain my liquids here for a moment"... LOLOL
As the greek philosopher Massengil once dictated, “lickus my probiscus”… “Undouche Me”!
AHahahaha
Bob...
I gave you another star on the "wall of fame", for those "In Living Color" Vids!
Seriously... I almost DIED laughing!
They even had a parole hearing!
AHahahaha
"Allow me to expose my colon once again".
LOLOL
i don't know this as a fact but i would harold and friends probably partied with manson and the family at spahn ranch and other places they lived. i would think dennis wilson house would draw these folks to it.
i really don't think suzan laberge had anything to do with the murders. her weirdness with tex just seems a crazy person using religion to forgive someone she shouldn't even though her religion tells her she should, what a quandry.
HA HA HA HA!!! Thanks Bobby. That's too funny. That's sooo much like Manson trying to articulate to "sane people".
>>>Beauders said: i really don't think suzan laberge had anything to do with the murders. her weirdness with tex just seems a crazy person using religion to forgive someone she shouldn't even though her religion tells her she should, what a quandry.>>>
Hi Beauders.
I know it's a stretch to think that Suzanne had anything to do with murder, but I wouldn't put it past her. Money talks!!!
If her "born again" status required that she forgive those who had savagely butchered her mother & step father, she could have done that quietly at home.
But if she chose to verbalize it, why just include Tex? Certainly she knows that Charlie, Pat & Horseteeth were just as involved as Tex. Maybe they didn't stab as much, but they were all there and contributed to their deaths.
That just makes no sense to me.
I agree with you that Harold must have partied at other places with the family if most of them hadn't been to his house. I guess he didn't mention it because it didn't come up????
Hi Bobby!! This phone interview is the first I've heard about Harold even knowing Charlie since he got out of prison. I thought they hooked up later because of drug connections.
I think that when Harold knew the family, he probably didn't consider them dangerous, although he does say they were crazy. Probably because of all the weird stuff Charlie would talk about, and then automaton girls would echo it like a demented loop segment.
Harold indicates in this interview that he knew ALL of them. He doesn't mention that he was afraid of them. Also, it's not clear when the last time he had contact with them was. Harold moved out of that house in late 1968. I'm assuming that he wasn't having contact with the family after that. But I don't know for sure.
Hello Katie 8753
I agree with you the film really sucks. This film and others about the murders was done in a haste by movie producers who wanted to earn some easy money from these sensationall incidents. They didn´t even bother to get things right.
Do you belive that Manson and some other in the family drove up to Cielo Drive after the murders? It seemed that someone had moved the bodies around. If it wasn´t Manson then we stand before an even bigger mystery.
beauders have talked about "mind control and psy/op operations."
Ackording to author David Mc Gowan he isn´t really quite sure that the murders was done by the Manson family.
Hi V717!!!
I hope you know that love ya babe!!! HA HA.
>>>V717 said: Hello Katie 8753
I agree with you the film really sucks. This film and others about the murders was done in a haste by movie producers who wanted to earn some easy money from these sensationall incidents. They didn´t even bother to get things right.>>>
You're exactly right. These movie producers have raced around and made movies that have nothing to do with reality. It's more than disgusting....it's like a porno flick...which anybody who has watched one, knows that it's only about the "kaboomb". HA HA.
>>Do you belive that Manson and some other in the family drove up to Cielo Drive after the murders? It seemed that someone had moved the bodies around. If it wasn´t Manson then we stand before an even bigger mystery.>>
I do belive that Manson and some other (Clem) drove to Cielo Drive and caused havoc with the crime scene. He wanted to make sure he wasn't incriminated in any way.
>>>beauders have talked about "mind control and psy/op operations. Ackording to author David Mc Gowan he isn´t really quite sure that the murders was done by the Manson family.>>>
Okay now you're losing me. David McGowan needs to take a big whiff of reality. HA HA.
These murders were done by the Manson Family. They admitted it.
Pat, Susan, Tex and Horseteeth already admitted it.
Detail by detail.
These people were brainwashed. Their brains were washed and dried. Ready to be ironed.
I don't know how anyone can say otherwise.
V717....come back to the fold!!!!
"Either youse get it...or you don't...." (Mel Brooks).
HA HA
Katie said:
"Harold indicates in this interview that he knew ALL of them. He doesn't mention that he was afraid of them. Also, it's not clear when the last time he had contact with them was. Harold moved out of that house in late 1968. I'm assuming that he wasn't having contact with the family after that. But I don't know for sure."
I have a hunch that Harold knew Phil Kaufman and met Charlie that way...I read that somewhere and will try to source it..
I also read that Harold visited Charlie in jail after the murders, I think that was on a report of Charlie's visitors..I'll try and find it too.
One interview that Phil did in 1994 said he lived on Waverly with Harold and that's why Charlie went to Waverly that night ..but Sanders never mentioned him as one of the renters...
Thanks Kimchi! I think Harold, like a lot of other dope users, probably remembers the past through a vague fog. LOL.
It's funny Manson doesn't say that True picked him up. He says he was given a ride by a truck driver who took him home and was going to have him stay a couple of days till the wife got uptight. He gives the story in detail. Of course he could have just forgotten about True. Since Charlie's life was absolutely intense every minute -I have never heard of anyone packing so much into a 2 year period- he could well have skipped this, whereas it's more likely True would recall him.
You just never know. Memory is so fragile.
As to getting people out of cults, you transpose them to a larger cult, known as, agreed-upon society.
Don't you think it is fascinating how many of Charlie's ideas, which were considered dangerously radicalism back then are mainstream now? Care for the environment, for one. And much of his spiel is now repackaged as New Age.
I can understand too, why his followers thought he was Christ. Jesus treated women with attention and appreciation too, while having men as his main followers. He too gave off a mixture of gentleness and force. He spoke of living in the moment, leaving your families, appreciating the beauty of nature and trusting to living day-by-day, that God would provide, you can live while just wandering around. Like Charlie, Jesus had friends of all kinds, from 'publicans and sinners' to high-ranking people. And while the Christians would have excised this, I can't imagine that all those women who followed Christ and cared for him just as the Manson girls did Charlie, were doing it without some physical attention. Never under-estimate the power of a man who knows that sex is not about banging away with a big cock for hours. Charlie knew this, I expect Jesus did too. It made Mary Charlie's slave, made Pat Krenwinkel leave her home, car and paycheck. It's funny how this parallels the Bible stories, how Jesus called people and they left their nets, their father, their jobs, instantly.
I can see why the Family saw themselves as early christians. There are a lot of parallels. I think Charlie had a lot to say and a lot to teach and it is tragic that it should have turned so bad. I wonder how it may have turned out if the police had treated them more gently and hadn't constantly harassed them, thus setting up the 'us and them' mentality which didnt exist before?
Manson HIMSELF said he went to Waverly Drive that night to see who was in HAROLD TRUE'S HOUSE... not the Labianca's. When he found True's house to be "empty and locked", he then noticed someone in the Labianca's house. He said that "surprised" him because that house had always been VACANT. "I had no idea someone was living there." That's when he and Tex decided to go in there. This is from Charlie's own mouth.
Still hilarious! “Everybody’s read everything into Charlie Manson’s case that can be read into it. Especially that scum-of-the-earth Booga-loosie, man!”
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