That photo a few threads back of the mail box at Spahn just struck me... the land that was once Spahn Ranch seems very familiar when you see it in person...from the photos we see all the time, it's easily recognized, but the thing that stands out the most now is its emptiness.
Other than the rocks, there's nothing there...except weeds and seed trees and the curve in the road where it always was, and it seems so small and bare...for all it once was...so I guess the mail box...crooked and worn represents life there...I wonder what kind of letters arrived in the Spahn Ranch mailbox? Did Ruby Pearl or Squeaky walk out and get the mail?
I've always wanted to go out to "Spahn's Ranch" and visit for an afternoon... or evening. I anticipate 'soaking-in" tons of nostalgia... tons.
But, in reality... I'd probably be left feeling more disappointed, than happy... by everything I wouldn't find (still) there.
On the one hand... I'm sure it's gorgeous territory, filled with nature abounding... if only in simple forms. One the other hand... there's really nothing there.
It seems every time someone visits Spahn's... they always take two photos. They take one photo by the "famous rock". Ya know, the rock the family crawled inside... for the epic picture. They take a second photo, by the brown "Santa Susanna" road sign. Even Marlin, Michael and Josh... followed suit, by taking photos there. Sadly... it seems now... those two "landmarks"... are the only real way, to prove you were actually there! It's the only two indicators, the average person still recognizes.
I always tell Katie... I'd love to visit "Spahn's Ranch". She always replies by saying: "Lynyrd there is no Ranch"... "it's just dirt and rocks"! LOL Somehow... I still see a ranch.
Maybe for that reason, it's best I never visit. As I said... maybe what I didn't find there... would impact me, more... than what I did find. : (
Maybe, some things are better remembered the way they were...
To me, it will always be "Spahn's Ranch"... even though Katie's right... I should probably just say "Spahn's".
What I'd really love to do (complete fantasy, LOL)... is spend an evening at Spahn's with a dozen friends.
Ya know... build a raging fire... and play my acoustic guitar. We could 'rock-out"... drinking beer, and passing around a few J's. LOL
And then... camp there for the night in tents.
That would be the ultimate "Spahn's" experience for me... ranch or no ranch.
BUT... I have to wonder... if such an event, would even be allowed these days? Or... would we all end-up, "in the slams"? LOL
Does anyone ever "get-away" with that kinda stuff there, after hours??
Anyone??
Many years ago...I once made a bon-fire on a public beach here in Massachusetts, with a dozen friends... same type of scene. We were all rounded-up by 9pm... after only an hour out there, for "trespassing". Massachusetss has a ZERO tolerance policy for any type of fun...
That kinda evening only happens in the movies, in my area! LOL
Isn't that how "Jaws" started out?? : )
...and actually... wasn't "Jaws" filmed on Cape Cod Mass? LOL
Around here... any beach/bonfire evening... ends with someone being eaten by a shark... or worse! hahaha
"Amity" was the name of the ficititious town for the movie. In reality (LOL)... the movie was, in fact, shot in Massachusetts, off Cape Cod... on one of the islands.
"Principal photography began on May 2, 1974. Location shooting occurred on the island of Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, chosen because the ocean had a sandy bottom 12 miles (19 km) out to sea and never dropped below thirty-five feet (11 m). This helped the prop sharks to operate smoothly and still provide a realistic location. The film nonetheless had a troubled shoot and went considerably over budget. David Brown said that the budget "was $4 million and the picture wound up costing $9 million".
LynyrdSkynyrdBand said It seems every time someone visits Spahn's... they always take two photos. They take one photo by the "famous rock". Ya know, the rock the family crawled inside... for the epic picture. They take a second photo, by the brown "Santa Susanna" road sign. You know, I think Charlie is out there sometimes, somewhere when he´s Astral travelling. -The pass where the Devil you can see Flying along in sight for all to see On the edge of infinity Santa Susana is the pass where you look to be Santa Susana is the pass where you look for me 12 in the night love or fight Anyway is right if you come out in the night It´s so out of sight in Devil´s Canyon-.
I've always wanted to go out to "Spahn's Ranch" and visit for an afternoon... or evening. I anticipate 'soaking-in" tons of nostalgia... tons.
But, in reality... I'd probably be left feeling more disappointed, than happy... by everything I wouldn't find (still) there.<<<<<
Hi Lynyrd, yes, you might be disappointed by what's not there anymore, but there is the land, the rocks, the creek bed, the cave, the parcel up on the curve in the road where the movie set was...strangely familiar and recognizable, and standing there you do soak up lots of nostalgia...from what we know from photos and research etc., and can easily visualize how it all was situated there on the land with the backdrop of the hill, and that hill has not changed...but there's nothing of George Spahn there anymore...(love that photo you posted with George and the horse, and i think Ruby) all that's left are reminders of Manson and crew...the creekbed, the cave etc.
I'd like to find where Shorty's remains were abandoned for so long, plant some wildflowers there...terrible what they did to him, and lied about it for so long...they're still lying about it, or maybe it's more like not saying at all. But they know.
I hope one day that land heals from the legacy of Charlie Manson and the crew...you know, imagining the old Ford rolling out of there late at night...think it'll be awhile though...:)
I like to remember Spahn's Ranch more for the old westerns that were filmed there.
The Lone Ranger. I used to watch that ALL the time. Kimosabe. HA HA.
I've never been there, but can just imagine the quiet calmness that comes from being in the country. The quietness of the night.
It's too bad that Charlie & Company trashed it out. Not just with garbage, but with memories of events that were the most horrendous actions ever thought of or undertaken in civilan life.
Marliese, I'm reading the Deana Martin book now. I'm about 3/4 way through.
They mention a "death list". I know that Sadie spouted off in prison about a death list, but I thought she was making that up.
Was there actually a real "death list"? Do you know?
That photo of George and Ruby is fantastic... I agree. It's one of my absolute favorites. It's a "moment in time" captured... as opposed to a photo intentionally "posed" for...
I've got a new motive to introduce. At least I think it's new.
We've all seen the Helter Skelter, drug burn, organized crime, just pissed off theories.
Let's think back to when Charlie shot Crowe. He thought he killed him.
Then later Charlie takes off by himself. Probably re-thinking the situation (like Fagan in Oliver). Meets Stephanie Shramm and feels like he's in "love". Comes back to the ranch, only to find out that Mary & Sandy have been arrested.
His two greatest followers.
Now he's got to worry about Bobby blabbing, and also, worry about his followers leaving him. People are talking....they're wondering why none of these prophecies have come true.
They were clamoring about "how come we didn't find the hole in the desert", etc.
Why not get them involved? Why not get their hands dirty. What better way to do that, than to order them to kill.
He's off the hook. He didn't kill anyone. That way, they can't leave him because they're guilty.
Think about it...if Susan hadn't bragged in prison, they may have never been caught.
The Keystone cops were bungling all the evidence, and not piecing Tate & Labianca together at all.
Lynyrd, what I'm saying is if you "involve" people in murder, it's harder for them to leave. You implicate them in the stream of things.
In other words, if I came to you and said "I'm sick of this shit and I'm leaving", and you said "okay, but what about the murders....if you leave...I'll have to say who did it".
Now keep in mind, Charlie didn't stab the victims, the others did. And also keep in mind, Charlie didn't anticipate anyone finding out who did it.
Katie 8753 Paranoia sure. All con men are smart. I´m not so sure about that, but anyhow. Why not get them involved? Why not get their hands dirty. What better way to do that, than to order them to kill. He's off the hook. He didn't kill anyone. That way, they can't leave him because they're guilty. I don´t think Charlie as the womanizer that he is would have any difficult to find as many women he wanted. I think it was a joint venture project between Tex Watson, Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenvinkel and maybe Linda Kasabian also was involved. On the first night they drove straight up to Cielo Drive. Why? They didn´t drive on random. They knew were to go. What business did they have there? What occupy drug addicts minds? Sorry. I must split now.I maybe continue tomorrow.
Manson shared HIS world to his “family” – giving them a brand new perspective on the world – one which became too much for them to handle. According to Manson himself in the San Quentin interview (and actually in ONE of his parole hearings – stating comparatively the same thing) with Neul Emmens next to him when asked if he felt remorse or guilt he stated “There is not need to feel guilty… I haven’t done anything I’m ashamed of” *pausing and thinks* “Maybe I didn’t do enough! I might be ashamed for that! For not giving enough, for not being aware enough.. for not being more perceptive.. for being stupid. Then he “twists” to confuse in the end, “Maybe I should have killed 400-500 people.. then I would have felt better, then I would have felt like I REALLY offered society something!”. What he regretted was probably that he did not think more of HOW he put down the words to his “family”, the impact it would have and what potential consequences there would be if he told them… just about everything that was going on in his mind. What the so called “family” did in 1969 fell under the so called “the law of man”… everyone is responsible for their actions and their actions alone. Due to that there is no need in Manson’s own mind to feel any guilt what so ever in what his “family” later did – in pure actions that is. What they did was probably also a direct consequence of heavy drug use. Seeing Tex Watson for example in interviews as a new born Christian it is apparent that his “original personality” in life is not capable of such an act he did… only during the influence of drugs can such a person do such things. And indeed he (and the others) was “high like a house” during the killings. Also being involved heavily in Manson’s “mindgames” – the combination of these things became dangerous and chaotic. Did Manson ACTUALLY feel sorry for the murders his “family” were responsible for? Yes. Why? Quoting, “How many people do you think you hang on the ventilators and nutwards and forced medications on?”… and so on from that to wars going on in that era of time. Not showing feelings (outwards) in the case of the killings his “family” did is probably a “trick” or a maybe even a revenge to excite people into becoming more upset about him. “You people have done everything in the world to ME… doesn’t that give me equal right?”.
>>V717 said: Did Manson ACTUALLY feel sorry for the murders his “family” were responsible for? Yes. Why? Quoting, “How many people do you think you hang on the ventilators and nutwards and forced medications on?”>>>
What does that even MEAN?
>>>Not showing feelings (outwards) in the case of the killings his “family” did is probably a “trick” or a maybe even a revenge to excite people into becoming more upset about him. “You people have done everything in the world to ME… doesn’t that give me equal right?”.>>>
Okay now you're contradicting yourself. First you say he had regrets, then you say he didn't.
V717, you base your opinions way too much on what CHARLIE says.
Why don't you start paying attention to what EVERYONE ELSE has to say about what happened. You might have an eye opening experience! :)
Katie 8753 The only key to solve this mystery is Manson. Tex Watson, Patricia Krenwinkel, Lesley van Houten and Susan Atkins those who actually commited the murders have not even today a single clue of what really happened to them. Vincent Bug thought he had solved the crime when he depicted Manson as the Master Manipulater of all times. But even Vincent had to admit that: "There are certain details in this case that remains unsolved and perplex." He said something like that. I don´t remember the exact words. Manson has a very high developed mind. He thinks in 3,4,5 directions all the time. In fact he is endless. And when he tries to explain his thinking to ordinary people there are room for missunderstanding. How do you communicate with an ant? Of course there were specific circumstances that unleashed these incidents but Manson was only indirect responsible for the carnage. Those who say that Manson never orded the killings are right. Manson: "Is Beatles Responsible?" You can say that Manson was to much for these young kids. In fact he´s to much for most of people. And sometimes he´s to much for himself. ATWA has at least two aims. The first it´s a genuine concern for the enviroment. The second it´s a reflection of Mansons struggle not to lose contact with the earth. He´s "high energy" mind sometimes makes him fly so high that eight miles isn´t enough. Manson´s wish to be a cyote is a desire to remain on the earth.
>>>V717 said: Katie 8753 The only key to solve this mystery is Manson.>>>
That's very true. He's the ONLY one who knows what really happened. And all he says is gooble-de-gook.
>>>Manson has a very high developed mind. He thinks in 3,4,5 directions all the time. In fact he is endless. And when he tries to explain his thinking to ordinary people there are room for missunderstanding.>>>
He probably has ADD or ADHD. That can be controlled with medication. Sometimes.
>>>Of course there were specific circumstances that unleashed these incidents but Manson was only indirect responsible for the carnage.>>>
What specific circumstances are you talking about? And how is Manson not involved? Again...you're listening to Manson and not the voice of truth.
>>>You can say that Manson was to much for these young kids. In fact he´s to much for most of people. And sometimes he´s to much for himself. >>>
Manson was much older than these kids, and as such, he willingly gathered them and started the "mind games" learned from years in prison, he subjected them to something they weren't prepared for. Do you agree??? That makes him a criminal in itself.
Men in their 30's that have been in prison for years should know better than to prey on teenagers and young adults with his "adult knowledge". It's not fair to them.
>>>ATWA has at least two aims. The first it´s a genuine concern for the enviroment. The second it´s a reflection of Mansons struggle not to lose contact with the earth. He´s "high energy" mind sometimes makes him fly so high that eight miles isn´t enough. Manson´s wish to be a cyote is a desire to remain on the earth.>>>
Okay this crap is where you lose me.
If Manson was so concerned with the "Earth" then why didn't he do something about it when he was out of prison, instead of crashing at Wilson's pad and "strong-arming" him to get a recording contract.
There's no mention of any concern for the Earth between 1967 and 1969.
V717, please stop talking "Charlie-ease" and start making sense. Then we can have a logical conversation!!!
katie,your motive is similar to the one advanced in Susan Aitkens (most likely ghosted by her husband)last book "The myth of Helter Skelter". I dont know if you read this or not. It disappeared quckly from her website after her death.
Katie8753 He probably has ADD or ADHD. That can be controlled with medication. Sometimes. Yes, I can agree to some point. IT´s his "high energy" mind that makes him fly. His condition is unknown to science; but I know it exist because I have stumbled upon it in other people. The specific circumstances was of course the murder of Gary Hinman due to a drug deal that went wrong. and Lotsapopa and all those things. Manson was much older than these kids, and as such, he willingly gathered them and started the "mind games" learned from years in prison, he subjected them to something they weren't prepared for. Do you agree??? Yes, but Manson never really understood that fully because he hadn´t been in much contact with the outside world. Manson:"I never grasped how weak you in the outside world are." Men in their 30's that have been in prison for years should know better than to prey on teenagers and young adults with his "adult knowledge". It's not fair to them. Please, don´t be so naive. If Manson was so concerned with the "Earth" then why didn't he do something about it when he was out of prison. The family lived a communal lifestyle that for many in todays world who is involved in enviromental movements seems desirable. Manson´s wish to be a cyote is a desire to remain on the earth.>>> Okay this crap is where you lose me. Hold your horses. Now it begins to be interesting. You wrote He probaly has ADD or something. That can be controlled with medication. Okay, what medications? Tranquillizers, I guess. Yes, but as the enviromentalist Manson is he rejects chemical solutions he prefers the natural and original medications. The Nature itself. It is the opposite to his high energy mind. There must always be a balance in nature. Now his condition isn´t ADD or something like that; I suspect it is a development of the evolution. If you talk to a geneticist he can tell you that the changing of the human DNA is speeding up due to that we have changed our enviroment. Our genes are constructed for a life with hardship. We don´t need that today and therefore the evolution is speeding up.
Hi Shak El! I didn't read Susan's book. This is a motive I was just thinking might apply.
But....if you really think about it, the real motive can be all these motives all wrapped up in one. Maybe there isn't a real "simple" motive. Maybe it's, just like Charlie, complicated and interwoven.
>>>V717 said: His condition is unknown to science; but I know it exist because I have stumbled upon it in other people.>>>
So....he's the missing link??
>>>The specific circumstances was of course the murder of Gary Hinman due to a drug deal that went wrong. and Lotsapopa and all those things.>>>
Charlie was involved in both of these events.
>>>The family lived a communal lifestyle that for many in todays world who is involved in enviromental movements seems desirable. Manson´s wish to be a cyote is a desire to remain on the earth.>>>
They ate garbage and had junky vehicles, leaking oil over the entire terrain they were squatting on.
They didn't plant trees, clean the ground and concrete, start any animal refuges, contact the EPA regarding environmental issues, join in any rallies to promote a more pure environment, and drove a gas-guzzling 50's model vehicle that contributed to the already bad smog problem in LA.
>>>Okay, what medications? Tranquillizers, I guess. Yes, but as the enviromentalist Manson is he rejects chemical solutions he prefers the natural and original medications.>>>
Like LSD???
>>>If you talk to a geneticist he can tell you that the changing of the human DNA is speeding up due to that we have changed our enviroment. Our genes are constructed for a life with hardship. We don´t need that today and therefore the evolution is speeding up.>>>
Katie8753 WE have in a large degree changed our own reality and surroundings. The forces that are over (or) under us have responded. The “modern man” is defined largely by the statement “I think therefore I am”. As we left the savannah, built cities and walls, more sophisticated surroundings and cultures… the need for “brute physical force” became less needed. IF there is an ongoing strong development in the human race since its beginning and to this day… HOW would we evolve in today’s world? HOW would a “future human” look like? Well, here appearances are very deceiving as the THOUGHT that defines us are what matters from a strict logical perspective. The definition of a future human being is therefore “I think MORE – therefore I am”. The original powers in human beings most likely “transformed” from mostly extreme psychical features to extreme mental features as we (or something else) changed the environment from a very “simple” one to a very very complex one. The few that owned some particularly extreme powers in the past are still few due to the balance in nature – but they are the same in their “core”. And look at what they can do. Look in the past… look in the present. Listen to Manson’s words in the court and in interviews. Take a look at the impact of his words and thoughts. ATWA. Air – Trees – Water – Animals. The REALLY ironic thing is that Manson is the father (the originals where the “old people” – the native inhabitants of America) of the modern environmental philosophy. Read his words and compare them to the “climate hysteria” of today’s politicians, journalists, scientists and many more – do they know that they are speaking the words of Charles Manson?
>>>V717 said: The few that owned some particularly extreme powers in the past are still few due to the balance in nature – but they are the same in their “core”. And look at what they can do. Look in the past… look in the present.>>>
What "powers" are you talking about?
>>>Listen to Manson’s words in the court and in interviews. Take a look at the impact of his words and thoughts. ATWA. Air – Trees – Water – Animals.>>>
V717, Manson didn't talk about any of that stuff until after he was convicted.
And I don't care to listen to Manson. He's full of shit.
>>>The REALLY ironic thing is that Manson is the father (the originals where the “old people” – the native inhabitants of America) of the modern environmental philosophy.>>>
Did he tell you that? Hrrummmpphhh!
>>Read his words and compare them to the “climate hysteria” of today’s politicians, journalists, scientists and many more – do they know that they are speaking the words of Charles Manson?>>
Are any of them saying "she got old on me." HA HA.
You haven't explained why Manson wanted to waste fuel running the dune buggies day and night. There was an energy crisis going on then, but he didn't care.
Katie8753 There has always been people who raised themselves over their contemporaries. These people have been ridiculed and laughed at through the whole written history of humankind. Manson represent indeed no exception to that rule. Only afterwards have they got the credit they deserved. Someone, I have forgotten his name said that: "Some day in the future Manson will be seen as a true American folk hero."
>>>V717 said: Katie8753 There has always been people who raised themselves over their contemporaries. These people have been ridiculed and laughed at through the whole written history of humankind.>>>
And who are these people?
>>>Manson represent indeed no exception to that rule. Only afterwards have they got the credit they deserved. Someone, I have forgotten his name said that: "Some day in the future Manson will be seen as a true American folk hero.">>>
Whoever said that needs to have a heavy duty straight jacket clamped down on him. HA HA.
V717, I'm not laughing at you.
The difference between us, is that I don't listen to what Charlie says. I think he's a liar. In fact, he's a bigger liar than Casey Anthony (if you can believe that).
You on the other hand, listen to everything he says.
You and I will never have a meeting of the minds, unless one of us budges. And I don't see that happening.
Sigh....
I like your posts, but I like you even more when you "human up" sometimes.
there were two sherry's the first was sherry andrews aka claudia smith who may be jane doe #59. jane doe #59 was stabbed 157 times and her clothing was recognized by ruby pearl. the second is sherry ann cooper aka simi valley sherry who was with decarlo. she is the one who manson humiliated and beat with the oral watchamallit and hiked out of barker ranch with barbara hoyt.
>>>Beauders said: there were two sherry's the first was sherry andrews aka claudia smith who may be jane doe #59. jane doe #59 was stabbed 157 times and her clothing was recognized by ruby pearl.>>>
Thanks Beauders. I didn't know that. Can you fill me in on details? When was she stabbed? I'm surprised her clothing was recognized by Ruby, when they all wore each other's clothes.
Any more info you can provide will be greatly apreciated! :)
katie8753 said... >>>Beauders said: there were two sherry's the first was sherry andrews aka claudia smith who may be jane doe #59. jane doe #59 was stabbed 157 times and her clothing was recognized by ruby pearl.>>>
Thanks Beauders. I didn't know that. Can you fill me in on details? When was she stabbed? I'm surprised her clothing was recognized by Ruby, when they all wore each other's clothes.
Any more info you can provide will be greatly apreciated! :)
Hi Katie, this young woman is mentioned in Helter Skelter. I don't know if there is anything more recent than what Bugliosi says on page 620...
He says that on November 16, 1969, the body of a young woman was found dumped down the embankment of Mulholland and Bowmont Drive near Laurel Canyon, near the spot where Marina Habe's body was found.
A young brunette, stabbed 157 times in the chest and throat. Ruby Pearl 'remembered seeing the girl with the family at Spahn, and thought her name was Sherry.'
He says that even though the manson girls traded names and aliases often, 'LASO was able to identify only one Sherry, Sherry Ann Cooper, aka Simi Valley Sherri. She had fled Barker at the same time as Barbara Hoyt and was, fortunately, still alive. The victim became Jane Doe 59 in police files. Her identity is still unknown.'
So this is pretty vague. Ruby Pearl thinking her name may have been Sherry isn't much. I'd like to know if there's anything more recent than Bugliosi's comments in 1974, or if her identity has ever been confirmed.
Speaking of Ruby, do you know if she ever gave any interviews? I'd love to hear what she had to say! :)
I know of two short interviews with Ruby on film. In one she discusses the family in-general. In the second, she discusses Shorty Shea. I'd be happy to post either, or both. As for Ruby discussing "Sherry" on film specifically... I've never seen it.
37 comments:
Oh Lynyrd thanks for the mail box.
That photo a few threads back of the mail box at Spahn just struck me... the land that was once Spahn Ranch seems very familiar when you see it in person...from the photos we see all the time, it's easily recognized, but the thing that stands out the most now is its emptiness.
Other than the rocks, there's nothing there...except weeds and seed trees and the curve in the road where it always was, and it seems so small and bare...for all it once was...so I guess the mail box...crooked and worn represents life there...I wonder what kind of letters arrived in the Spahn Ranch mailbox? Did Ruby Pearl or Squeaky walk out and get the mail?
Anyway, thanks for the mention, Lynyrd.
Hi Marliese.
What you are saying, makes perfect sense.
I've always wanted to go out to "Spahn's Ranch" and visit for an afternoon... or evening.
I anticipate 'soaking-in" tons of nostalgia... tons.
But, in reality... I'd probably be left feeling more disappointed, than happy... by everything I wouldn't find (still) there.
On the one hand... I'm sure it's gorgeous territory, filled with nature abounding... if only in simple forms.
One the other hand... there's really nothing there.
It seems every time someone visits Spahn's... they always take two photos.
They take one photo by the "famous rock".
Ya know, the rock the family crawled inside... for the epic picture.
They take a second photo, by the brown "Santa Susanna" road sign.
Even Marlin, Michael and Josh... followed suit, by taking photos there.
Sadly... it seems now... those two "landmarks"... are the only real way, to prove you were actually there!
It's the only two indicators, the average person still recognizes.
I always tell Katie... I'd love to visit "Spahn's Ranch".
She always replies by saying:
"Lynyrd there is no Ranch"... "it's just dirt and rocks"! LOL
Somehow... I still see a ranch.
Maybe for that reason, it's best I never visit.
As I said... maybe what I didn't find there... would impact me, more... than what I did find. : (
Maybe, some things are better remembered the way they were...
To me, it will always be "Spahn's Ranch"... even though Katie's right... I should probably just say "Spahn's".
Peace... Lynyrd
What I'd really love to do (complete fantasy, LOL)... is spend an evening at Spahn's with a dozen friends.
Ya know... build a raging fire... and play my acoustic guitar.
We could 'rock-out"... drinking beer, and passing around a few J's. LOL
And then... camp there for the night in tents.
That would be the ultimate "Spahn's" experience for me... ranch or no ranch.
BUT... I have to wonder... if such an event, would even be allowed these days?
Or... would we all end-up, "in the slams"? LOL
Does anyone ever "get-away" with that kinda stuff there, after hours??
Anyone??
Many years ago...I once made a bon-fire on a public beach here in Massachusetts, with a dozen friends... same type of scene.
We were all rounded-up by 9pm... after only an hour out there, for "trespassing".
Massachusetss has a ZERO tolerance policy for any type of fun...
That kinda evening only happens in the movies, in my area! LOL
Isn't that how "Jaws" started out?? : )
...and actually... wasn't "Jaws" filmed on Cape Cod Mass? LOL
Around here... any beach/bonfire evening... ends with someone being eaten by a shark... or worse! hahaha
Ewww...I'd be afraid to camp out at Spahn's Ranch. Some ghost might jump outta the bushes and cut my head off or something.
I gotta quit watching those scary movies. HA HA.
Lynyrd, Jaws took place in a town called Amity. Don't know if that's a real town, but I think it was in Maine.
Or was it??? LOL.
"Amity" was the name of the ficititious town for the movie.
In reality (LOL)... the movie was, in fact, shot in Massachusetts, off Cape Cod... on one of the islands.
"Principal photography began on May 2, 1974. Location shooting occurred on the island of Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, chosen because the ocean had a sandy bottom 12 miles (19 km) out to sea and never dropped below thirty-five feet (11 m). This helped the prop sharks to operate smoothly and still provide a realistic location. The film nonetheless had a troubled shoot and went considerably over budget. David Brown said that the budget "was $4 million and the picture wound up costing $9 million".
... and I'm almost certain, the movie starts with teenagers 'partying" on the beach.
LynyrdSkynyrdBand said
It seems every time someone visits Spahn's... they always take two photos.
They take one photo by the "famous rock".
Ya know, the rock the family crawled inside... for the epic picture.
They take a second photo, by the brown "Santa Susanna" road sign.
You know, I think Charlie is out there sometimes, somewhere when he´s Astral travelling.
-The pass where the Devil you can see
Flying along in sight for all to see
On the edge of infinity
Santa Susana is the pass where you look to be
Santa Susana is the pass where you look for me
12 in the night love or fight
Anyway is right if you come out in the night
It´s so out of sight in Devil´s Canyon-.
LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...>>>>
Hi Marliese.
What you are saying, makes perfect sense.
I've always wanted to go out to "Spahn's Ranch" and visit for an afternoon... or evening.
I anticipate 'soaking-in" tons of nostalgia... tons.
But, in reality... I'd probably be left feeling more disappointed, than happy... by everything I wouldn't find (still) there.<<<<<
Hi Lynyrd, yes, you might be disappointed by what's not there anymore, but there is the land, the rocks, the creek bed, the cave, the parcel up on the curve in the road where the movie set was...strangely familiar and recognizable, and standing there you do soak up lots of nostalgia...from what we know from photos and research etc., and can easily visualize how it all was situated there on the land with the backdrop of the hill, and that hill has not changed...but there's nothing of George Spahn there anymore...(love that photo you posted with George and the horse, and i think Ruby) all that's left are reminders of Manson and crew...the creekbed, the cave etc.
I'd like to find where Shorty's remains were abandoned for so long, plant some wildflowers there...terrible what they did to him, and lied about it for so long...they're still lying about it, or maybe it's more like not saying at all. But they know.
I hope one day that land heals from the legacy of Charlie Manson and the crew...you know, imagining the old Ford rolling out of there late at night...think it'll be awhile though...:)
Hi Marliese.
I like to remember Spahn's Ranch more for the old westerns that were filmed there.
The Lone Ranger. I used to watch that ALL the time. Kimosabe. HA HA.
I've never been there, but can just imagine the quiet calmness that comes from being in the country. The quietness of the night.
It's too bad that Charlie & Company trashed it out. Not just with garbage, but with memories of events that were the most horrendous actions ever thought of or undertaken in civilan life.
Marliese, I'm reading the Deana Martin book now. I'm about 3/4 way through.
They mention a "death list". I know that Sadie spouted off in prison about a death list, but I thought she was making that up.
Was there actually a real "death list"? Do you know?
Yes Marliese...
That photo of George and Ruby is fantastic...
I agree.
It's one of my absolute favorites.
It's a "moment in time" captured... as opposed to a photo intentionally "posed" for...
A "day in the life" shot...
Katie said:
>>>>"Ewww...I'd be afraid to camp out at Spahn's Ranch. Some ghost might jump outta the bushes and cut my head off or something".<<<<
AHahahaha
Well... no one's ever accused Katie of being "caught-up" in nostalgia. : )
Katie... sometimes you're a real "buzz-kill". LOL
Marliese and I, are getting all reminiscent... V717 is reciting poetry... and you're still busting balls. hahaha
Oh well... same Ol' Katie.
You've got to give her an A+ for consistency anyway! LOL
V717!!! Glad you're on the current thread now!!
I've got a new motive to introduce. At least I think it's new.
We've all seen the Helter Skelter, drug burn, organized crime, just pissed off theories.
Let's think back to when Charlie shot Crowe. He thought he killed him.
Then later Charlie takes off by himself. Probably re-thinking the situation (like Fagan in Oliver). Meets Stephanie Shramm and feels like he's in "love". Comes back to the ranch, only to find out that Mary & Sandy have been arrested.
His two greatest followers.
Now he's got to worry about Bobby blabbing, and also, worry about his followers leaving him. People are talking....they're wondering why none of these prophecies have come true.
They were clamoring about "how come we didn't find the hole in the desert", etc.
Why not get them involved? Why not get their hands dirty. What better way to do that, than to order them to kill.
He's off the hook. He didn't kill anyone. That way, they can't leave him because they're guilty.
Think about it...if Susan hadn't bragged in prison, they may have never been caught.
The Keystone cops were bungling all the evidence, and not piecing Tate & Labianca together at all.
Charlie was a smart guy. All con men are smart.
>>>Lynyrd said: Oh well... same Ol' Katie.
You've got to give her an A+ for consistency anyway! LOL>>>
HA HA HA HA.
Like I said before. It's just a bunch of dirt & rocks now. LOL.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying Katie...
Manson thought everyone was going to leave him... and, by "getting their hands dirty" also... they'd be more apt stay?
Hmm... maybe, I missed something.
If I was a "minion" (LOL)... who "got my hands dirty" also... and I was consequently wanted for murder myself... I think I'd be more apt to LEAVE! LOL
I'm not seeing it.
Thinking he had killed Crowe, was surely an added source of stress for Manson.
That makes sense, to me.
I don't really understand the rest.
"The family that slays together, stays together" theory? LOL
Lynyrd, what I'm saying is if you "involve" people in murder, it's harder for them to leave. You implicate them in the stream of things.
In other words, if I came to you and said "I'm sick of this shit and I'm leaving", and you said "okay, but what about the murders....if you leave...I'll have to say who did it".
Now keep in mind, Charlie didn't stab the victims, the others did. And also keep in mind, Charlie didn't anticipate anyone finding out who did it.
Katie 8753
Paranoia sure.
All con men are smart.
I´m not so sure about that, but anyhow.
Why not get them involved? Why not get their hands dirty. What better way to do that, than to order them to kill. He's off the hook. He didn't kill anyone. That way, they can't leave him because they're guilty.
I don´t think Charlie as the womanizer that he is would have any difficult to find as many women he wanted.
I think it was a joint venture project between Tex Watson, Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenvinkel and maybe Linda Kasabian also was involved. On the first night they drove straight up to Cielo Drive. Why? They didn´t drive on random. They knew were to go. What business did they have there? What occupy drug addicts minds?
Sorry. I must split now.I maybe continue tomorrow.
Hi V717.
I don't think Charlie would have had any trouble finding new women either, but you have to look at it (2) ways.
First of all, this was his "family" that he never had. He probably didn't want them to leave.
Secondly, the heat was really on him too. Even though he didn't commit the murders, he ordered them....and he knew it.
He knew he was just as involved as the others.
Manson shared HIS world to his “family” – giving them a brand new perspective on the world – one which became too much for them to handle. According to Manson himself in the San Quentin interview (and actually in ONE of his parole hearings – stating comparatively the same thing) with Neul Emmens next to him when asked if he felt remorse or guilt he stated “There is not need to feel guilty… I haven’t done anything I’m ashamed of” *pausing and thinks* “Maybe I didn’t do enough! I might be ashamed for that! For not giving enough, for not being aware enough.. for not being more perceptive.. for being stupid. Then he “twists” to confuse in the end, “Maybe I should have killed 400-500 people.. then I would have felt better, then I would have felt like I REALLY offered society something!”. What he regretted was probably that he did not think more of HOW he put down the words to his “family”, the impact it would have and what potential consequences there would be if he told them… just about everything that was going on in his mind.
What the so called “family” did in 1969 fell under the so called “the law of man”… everyone is responsible for their actions and their actions alone. Due to that there is no need in Manson’s own mind to feel any guilt what so ever in what his “family” later did – in pure actions that is. What they did was probably also a direct consequence of heavy drug use. Seeing Tex Watson for example in interviews as a new born Christian it is apparent that his “original personality” in life is not capable of such an act he did… only during the influence of drugs can such a person do such things. And indeed he (and the others) was “high like a house” during the killings. Also being involved heavily in Manson’s “mindgames” – the combination of these things became dangerous and chaotic. Did Manson ACTUALLY feel sorry for the murders his “family” were responsible for? Yes. Why? Quoting, “How many people do you think you hang on the ventilators and nutwards and forced medications on?”… and so on from that to wars going on in that era of time. Not showing feelings (outwards) in the case of the killings his “family” did is probably a “trick” or a maybe even a revenge to excite people into becoming more upset about him. “You people have done everything in the world to ME… doesn’t that give me equal right?”.
>>V717 said: Did Manson ACTUALLY feel sorry for the murders his “family” were responsible for? Yes. Why? Quoting, “How many people do you think you hang on the ventilators and nutwards and forced medications on?”>>>
What does that even MEAN?
>>>Not showing feelings (outwards) in the case of the killings his “family” did is probably a “trick” or a maybe even a revenge to excite people into becoming more upset about him. “You people have done everything in the world to ME… doesn’t that give me equal right?”.>>>
Okay now you're contradicting yourself. First you say he had regrets, then you say he didn't.
V717, you base your opinions way too much on what CHARLIE says.
Why don't you start paying attention to what EVERYONE ELSE has to say about what happened. You might have an eye opening experience! :)
Katie 8753
The only key to solve this mystery is Manson.
Tex Watson, Patricia Krenwinkel, Lesley van Houten and Susan Atkins those who actually commited the murders have not even today a single clue of what really happened to them.
Vincent Bug thought he had solved the crime when he depicted Manson as the Master Manipulater of all times. But even Vincent had to admit that: "There are certain details in this case that remains unsolved and perplex." He said something like that. I don´t remember the exact words.
Manson has a very high developed mind. He thinks in 3,4,5 directions all the time. In fact he is endless. And when he tries to explain his thinking to ordinary people there are room for missunderstanding.
How do you communicate with an ant?
Of course there were specific circumstances that unleashed these incidents but Manson was only indirect responsible for the carnage. Those who say that Manson never orded the killings are right. Manson: "Is Beatles Responsible?"
You can say that Manson was to much for these young kids. In fact he´s to much for most of people. And sometimes he´s to much for himself.
ATWA has at least two aims. The first it´s a genuine concern for the enviroment. The second it´s a reflection of Mansons struggle not to lose contact with the earth. He´s "high energy" mind sometimes makes him fly so high that eight miles isn´t enough.
Manson´s wish to be a cyote is a desire to remain on the earth.
>>>V717 said: Katie 8753
The only key to solve this mystery is Manson.>>>
That's very true. He's the ONLY one who knows what really happened. And all he says is gooble-de-gook.
>>>Manson has a very high developed mind. He thinks in 3,4,5 directions all the time. In fact he is endless. And when he tries to explain his thinking to ordinary people there are room for missunderstanding.>>>
He probably has ADD or ADHD. That can be controlled with medication. Sometimes.
>>>Of course there were specific circumstances that unleashed these incidents but Manson was only indirect responsible for the carnage.>>>
What specific circumstances are you talking about? And how is Manson not involved? Again...you're listening to Manson and not the voice of truth.
>>>You can say that Manson was to much for these young kids. In fact he´s to much for most of people. And sometimes he´s to much for himself. >>>
Manson was much older than these kids, and as such, he willingly gathered them and started the "mind games" learned from years in prison, he subjected them to something they weren't prepared for. Do you agree??? That makes him a criminal in itself.
Men in their 30's that have been in prison for years should know better than to prey on teenagers and young adults with his "adult knowledge". It's not fair to them.
>>>ATWA has at least two aims. The first it´s a genuine concern for the enviroment. The second it´s a reflection of Mansons struggle not to lose contact with the earth. He´s "high energy" mind sometimes makes him fly so high that eight miles isn´t enough.
Manson´s wish to be a cyote is a desire to remain on the earth.>>>
Okay this crap is where you lose me.
If Manson was so concerned with the "Earth" then why didn't he do something about it when he was out of prison, instead of crashing at Wilson's pad and "strong-arming" him to get a recording contract.
There's no mention of any concern for the Earth between 1967 and 1969.
V717, please stop talking "Charlie-ease" and start making sense. Then we can have a logical conversation!!!
katie,your motive is similar to the one advanced in Susan Aitkens (most likely ghosted by her husband)last book "The myth of Helter Skelter". I dont know if you read this or not. It disappeared quckly from her website after her death.
Katie8753
He probably has ADD or ADHD. That can be controlled with medication. Sometimes.
Yes, I can agree to some point. IT´s his "high energy" mind that makes him fly. His condition is unknown to science; but I know it exist because I have stumbled upon it in other people.
The specific circumstances was of course the murder of Gary Hinman due to a drug deal that went wrong. and Lotsapopa and all those things.
Manson was much older than these kids, and as such, he willingly gathered them and started the "mind games" learned from years in prison, he subjected them to something they weren't prepared for. Do you agree???
Yes, but Manson never really understood that fully because he hadn´t been in much contact with the outside world. Manson:"I never grasped how weak you in the outside world are."
Men in their 30's that have been in prison for years should know better than to prey on teenagers and young adults with his "adult knowledge". It's not fair to them.
Please, don´t be so naive.
If Manson was so concerned with the "Earth" then why didn't he do something about it when he was out of prison.
The family lived a communal lifestyle that for many in todays world who is involved in enviromental movements seems desirable.
Manson´s wish to be a cyote is a desire to remain on the earth.>>>
Okay this crap is where you lose me.
Hold your horses. Now it begins to be interesting. You wrote He probaly has ADD or something. That can be controlled with medication.
Okay, what medications? Tranquillizers, I guess.
Yes, but as the enviromentalist Manson is he rejects chemical solutions he prefers the natural and original medications. The Nature itself. It is the opposite to his high energy mind. There must always be a balance in nature.
Now his condition isn´t ADD or something like that; I suspect it is a development of the evolution. If you talk to a geneticist he can tell you that the changing of the human DNA is speeding up due to that we have changed our enviroment. Our genes are constructed for a life with hardship. We don´t need that today and therefore the evolution is speeding up.
Hey Shak El!
Hi Shak El! I didn't read Susan's book. This is a motive I was just thinking might apply.
But....if you really think about it, the real motive can be all these motives all wrapped up in one. Maybe there isn't a real "simple" motive. Maybe it's, just like Charlie, complicated and interwoven.
Hi V717.
>>>V717 said: His condition is unknown to science; but I know it exist because I have stumbled upon it in other people.>>>
So....he's the missing link??
>>>The specific circumstances was of course the murder of Gary Hinman due to a drug deal that went wrong. and Lotsapopa and all those things.>>>
Charlie was involved in both of these events.
>>>The family lived a communal lifestyle that for many in todays world who is involved in enviromental movements seems desirable.
Manson´s wish to be a cyote is a desire to remain on the earth.>>>
They ate garbage and had junky vehicles, leaking oil over the entire terrain they were squatting on.
They didn't plant trees, clean the ground and concrete, start any animal refuges, contact the EPA regarding environmental issues, join in any rallies to promote a more pure environment, and drove a gas-guzzling 50's model vehicle that contributed to the already bad smog problem in LA.
>>>Okay, what medications? Tranquillizers, I guess.
Yes, but as the enviromentalist Manson is he rejects chemical solutions he prefers the natural and original medications.>>>
Like LSD???
>>>If you talk to a geneticist he can tell you that the changing of the human DNA is speeding up due to that we have changed our enviroment. Our genes are constructed for a life with hardship. We don´t need that today and therefore the evolution is speeding up.>>>
Are we turning back into apes??? HA HA HA.
You know, speaking of the environment, I don't know how any one can claim Charlie was concerned about it back then.
They tore around in the desert in dune buggies and "power wagons", giving no thought to "saving energy", just zoom, zoom, zoom.
How can anyone dare to say Charlie was concerned about the environment?
Katie8753
WE have in a large degree changed our own reality and surroundings. The forces that are over (or) under us have responded. The “modern man” is defined largely by the statement “I think therefore I am”. As we left the savannah, built cities and walls, more sophisticated surroundings and cultures… the need for “brute physical force” became less needed.
IF there is an ongoing strong development in the human race since its beginning and to this day… HOW would we evolve in today’s world? HOW would a “future human” look like? Well, here appearances are very deceiving as the THOUGHT that defines us are what matters from a strict logical perspective. The definition of a future human being is therefore “I think MORE – therefore I am”.
The original powers in human beings most likely “transformed” from mostly extreme psychical features to extreme mental features as we (or something else) changed the environment from a very “simple” one to a very very complex one. The few that owned some particularly extreme powers in the past are still few due to the balance in nature – but they are the same in their “core”. And look at what they can do. Look in the past… look in the present. Listen to Manson’s words in the court and in interviews. Take a look at the impact of his words and thoughts.
ATWA. Air – Trees – Water – Animals. The REALLY ironic thing is that Manson is the father (the originals where the “old people” – the native inhabitants of America) of the modern environmental philosophy. Read his words and compare them to the “climate hysteria” of today’s politicians, journalists, scientists and many more – do they know that they are speaking the words of Charles Manson?
>>>V717 said: The few that owned some particularly extreme powers in the past are still few due to the balance in nature – but they are the same in their “core”. And look at what they can do. Look in the past… look in the present.>>>
What "powers" are you talking about?
>>>Listen to Manson’s words in the court and in interviews. Take a look at the impact of his words and thoughts.
ATWA. Air – Trees – Water – Animals.>>>
V717, Manson didn't talk about any of that stuff until after he was convicted.
And I don't care to listen to Manson. He's full of shit.
>>>The REALLY ironic thing is that Manson is the father (the originals where the “old people” – the native inhabitants of America) of the modern environmental philosophy.>>>
Did he tell you that? Hrrummmpphhh!
>>Read his words and compare them to the “climate hysteria” of today’s politicians, journalists, scientists and many more – do they know that they are speaking the words of Charles Manson?>>
Are any of them saying "she got old on me." HA HA.
You haven't explained why Manson wanted to waste fuel running the dune buggies day and night. There was an energy crisis going on then, but he didn't care.
Katie8753
There has always been people who raised themselves over their contemporaries. These people have been ridiculed and laughed at through the whole written history of humankind.
Manson represent indeed no exception to that rule.
Only afterwards have they got the credit they deserved.
Someone, I have forgotten his name said that: "Some day in the future Manson will be seen as a true American folk hero."
>>>V717 said: Katie8753
There has always been people who raised themselves over their contemporaries. These people have been ridiculed and laughed at through the whole written history of humankind.>>>
And who are these people?
>>>Manson represent indeed no exception to that rule.
Only afterwards have they got the credit they deserved.
Someone, I have forgotten his name said that: "Some day in the future Manson will be seen as a true American folk hero.">>>
Whoever said that needs to have a heavy duty straight jacket clamped down on him. HA HA.
V717, I'm not laughing at you.
The difference between us, is that I don't listen to what Charlie says. I think he's a liar. In fact, he's a bigger liar than Casey Anthony (if you can believe that).
You on the other hand, listen to everything he says.
You and I will never have a meeting of the minds, unless one of us budges. And I don't see that happening.
Sigh....
I like your posts, but I like you even more when you "human up" sometimes.
Maybe we can talk about the weather! LOL
there were two sherry's the first was sherry andrews aka claudia smith who may be jane doe #59. jane doe #59 was stabbed 157 times and her clothing was recognized by ruby pearl.
the second is sherry ann cooper aka simi valley sherry who was with decarlo. she is the one who manson humiliated and beat with the oral watchamallit and hiked out of barker ranch with barbara hoyt.
>>>Beauders said: there were two sherry's the first was sherry andrews aka claudia smith who may be jane doe #59. jane doe #59 was stabbed 157 times and her clothing was recognized by ruby pearl.>>>
Thanks Beauders. I didn't know that. Can you fill me in on details? When was she stabbed? I'm surprised her clothing was recognized by Ruby, when they all wore each other's clothes.
Any more info you can provide will be greatly apreciated! :)
katie8753 said...
>>>Beauders said: there were two sherry's the first was sherry andrews aka claudia smith who may be jane doe #59. jane doe #59 was stabbed 157 times and her clothing was recognized by ruby pearl.>>>
Thanks Beauders. I didn't know that. Can you fill me in on details? When was she stabbed? I'm surprised her clothing was recognized by Ruby, when they all wore each other's clothes.
Any more info you can provide will be greatly apreciated! :)
Hi Katie, this young woman is mentioned in Helter Skelter. I don't know if there is anything more recent than what Bugliosi says on page 620...
He says that on November 16, 1969, the body of a young woman was found dumped down the embankment of Mulholland and Bowmont Drive near Laurel Canyon, near the spot where Marina Habe's body was found.
A young brunette, stabbed 157 times in the chest and throat. Ruby Pearl 'remembered seeing the girl with the family at Spahn, and thought
her name was Sherry.'
He says that even though the manson girls traded names and aliases often, 'LASO was able to identify only one
Sherry, Sherry Ann Cooper, aka
Simi Valley Sherri. She had fled
Barker at the same time as Barbara Hoyt and was, fortunately, still alive. The victim became Jane Doe 59 in police files. Her identity is still unknown.'
So this is pretty vague. Ruby Pearl thinking her name may have been Sherry isn't much. I'd like to know if there's anything more recent than Bugliosi's comments in 1974, or if her identity has ever been confirmed.
Speaking of Ruby, do you know if she ever gave any interviews? I'd love to hear what she had to say! :)
Wow! Thanks Marliese.
That's so interesting.
A young woman who was seen at the Ranch stabbed 157 times!! In the chest & throat. She must have really made someone mad!
That's very interesting. November 16, 1969. The family had been arrested in October 1969. Tex had gone bye-bye by then.
We know that Charlie & Susan were never released after the October 1969 arrest. But others were released.
Bobby was still locked up. Pat & Linda ran for the hills and had to be called back for indictments.
Horseteeth? Was she released?
That leaves Bruce Davis in my opinion. Or Steve Grogan.
If this is a Manson murder, it couldn't have been "the usual suspects".
Marliese, I really don't know any more about this murder. Does anyone have any clues???
I think Ruby did give one interview back in 1969. It used to be on Bret's site. Maybe it's on BPT now???
Lynyrd, do you know?
I know of two short interviews with Ruby on film.
In one she discusses the family in-general.
In the second, she discusses Shorty Shea.
I'd be happy to post either, or both.
As for Ruby discussing "Sherry" on film specifically... I've never seen it.
Anyone?
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