In this interview with Marlin Marynic he corroborate that the murders and the victims all knew each other. As I have been saying all the time these murders was not random killings as Vincent Bug states. The perpetrators was not on some holy crusade to ignite HELTER SKELTER. These murders was about money and drugs. It was Vincent Bug who created the myth about Charles Manson as the evil guru who duped his followers to commit gruesome murders.
Does anyone know if any of the killers, other than Charlie, ever claimed that they knew Stephen, Sharon, Jay, Voytek or Gibbie? Of everything I have read or seen, I cannot recall Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkle, or Tex ever stating that they knew the victims at the Tate house. You would think one of them would have, were it true!
A male nurse from Canada who is interested in Charlie like we are...
He spoke to him directly- but so does AC and Star and greywolf.
do we believe anything Charlie says now because it is coming from Marlin- versus any of the others?
it is still coming from Charlie-
Marlin went an extra step than we did- he actually went and met the old goat for himself...
other than that- he was no more there than any of us were- and Charlie is very unreliable with his stories, and as he gets older I am sure his memory gets worse and worse- and likes to play games more and more.
In fact- I am less likely myself to listen to anything Charlie has to say now than I was 15 or twenty years ago- no matter who it comes from...
Which still does not mean any of this is NOT true- it could be...
But Marlin just showing up and solving the puzzle and getting Charlie to admit to all the long lost secrets- from a suddenly sharp/reflective and honest Chsarlie??????
Lady Ram- nowhere in anything I have read, watched, or listnened to can anyone place any of the actual murderers ( not including Charlie) Patty/ Tex/Sadie/Lulu- with any of the victims. not in any one of hours of Parole hearings after all these years- when they are trying there very best to be honest and remorseful- nor anywhere else...
Bobby can be seen in one movie which Jay is also in- but no evidence they knew each other, and Bobby was locked up when TLB went down.... ( Mondo Hollywood was the movie)
otherwise- nothing at all anywhere- besides rumors, stories, and innuendos on the blogs...
I have been searching for years for direct proof they knew each other. It is a major part of my personal theory. There are many places in print where you can almost smell how close Charlie came into contact with some of them in Laurel Canyon- but nothing definitive...
Sadie is a good example because she is a big mouth who cant be trusted by everyone account...
she has had several versions of the truth, and none mentions knowing the victims- even the one she wrote on her deathbed... why would she keep that one small thing to herself? it would have made her story less frightening to know this if it were true- and she tried everything under the sun to get out...
Tex wrote three books that touch this subject- never mentions knowing victims in any of them...
Katie- they say- is the truly most remorseful today... nothing from her either in 40 plus years...
These people couldn't keep killing people a secret for one year- but they could keep why they did it a secret for 40????
does that make sense to any of you????
I want to find desperately they knew each other...
but not ready to accept it becuase Marlin says Charlie says so...
I am much better looking than Marlin, and when I post my pic in front of that sign next Spring- it will be much easier on the eyes...
maybe I will blow some dough and stop in and see the old goat while I am out there....
maybe AC can pull some strings for me and get me in to talk to him- if I put a few hundred in his canteen account and make a nice contribution to ATWA....
But I have my own set of questions for him that might not be much help in the solving of the case...
I wanna know which one was the hottest on the matress in the outlaw shacks...
and if he made them bathe first?
did Elmer really get him high- or did he have his own stash on the side????
Did Squeaky really bang that old fart and did he ever watch?
How has prison sex changed his opinion of black people?
Does he ask Star to play " midnight express" when she comes to visit??
Is Gerywolf really Brooks Posten hiding behind a beard??
Is he keeping track of the apocalypse with a sundial- because he waited his whole life to end to see the end of his life....
Then I go outside smoke a dube- and get on with my vacation
I will come back with some funny answers, and interesting stuff- but I wont come home with why TLB happened- and I dont think Marlin did either.
It's sounds like Saint has the real "hard-hitting" questions lined-up for Charlie... those questions, which "inquiring minds", really want to know! LOLOL
Saint's Book Title: "Everything you ever wanted to know... but, were afraid to ask"! : )
It would be my guess, that Manson would probably enjoy that type of light-hearted discussion from a visitor... compared to being grilled over TLB yet again. As I said... just my guess.
Matt- admitting they knew them, and giving a reason other than what we are left with- would make the crime more understandable- and make those who committed them more human. Katie/Tex/Leslie and Susan spent almost 3/4 of there adult lives trying to get out of prison. If you have ever read any of the transcripts of any of there parole hearings- the common theme is that they feel they are being treated unfairly because of the notoriety of the " commitment offense" as they call it. If any of them could have given a realistic reason for what happened- it would have gone a long way towards de-mystifying the sensationalism of the crime...
See what Bobby did as an example. He has tried as hard as he can to make this not about the Manson family- and all about a drug burn... If you have read his blog- he is adamant he is " not a member nor has he ever been a member" the association alone over the sheer horror of what they did is enough. The horror is generated by the lack of comprehension of why this had to happen as brutally as it did. At least a reason people could understand- makes him a guy caught up in a bad situation- bot a brutal monster...
But none of the others ever went that route- and you have to wonder why...
As for Marlin... I think everyone is over-thinking this whole thing.
Marlin wrote a book (semi-recently) based on his experience with Manson, . He's a figure in this Manson topic... and he traveled from Canada to view Spahn's... with another staple in "Manson-world"... Michael. It's current, interesting news.
I got the same "backlash" when I posted the thread regarding Bugliosi, making a public appearance... albeit, from a different group of bloggers.
Everyone has a right to their opinion... that's what makes blogs tick... and creates participation. But, I just want to make a couple things clear:
No one is proporting that because Marlin takes Manson's word at face value... (regarding folks at Spahn's and Cielo, knowing each other)... that we ALL have to believe that, as well. Marlin has a right to his opinion, as we have a right to ours.
I don't think Marlin... or his book... proport to "solve the case". In fact... that was never his goal. Marlin is a psychiatric nurse. He describes his relationship with Manson as "therapeutic". Marlin attempts to give us an inner-look at "Manson the man, today"... sorta speak. Marlin does not claim to be a defense attorney.
At any rate: I think Marlin presented himself in a very professional, courteous, sensible, and responsible manner in the televised interview. There is nothing "sensational" about the man, what-so-ever.
I've always been "open" to the possibility, that some folks from Spahn's, may have known some folks from Cielo. Although, I would never take Manson's word alone, as evidence.
Evidently, Marlin feels Manson's word, is convincing enough for him... but, from my vantage point... he doesn't seem overly interested in influencing others to believe the same. The guy seems pretty laid-back to me.
Bottom line: I just don't think it is... or ever was... Marlin's goal... to "solve the case". I don't think that was his motivation, when interviewing Manson... writing the book... or doing this televised program. The man is a psychiatric nurse. I think everyone is WAY over-thinking this.
If folks want to discuss whether or not Manson and company, knew the folks at Cielo... that's fine with me. I just don't see the need to insult Marlin... a man none of us have met... in the process.
My gift to this blog- no promises because it is out of my hands...
I will send the request- and pay whatever the price to visit Charlie if we will take me as a visitor
open invitation to all those who say they are in the know with Chuckie..
I am going to ask for an application to visit him- and fill out the paperwork..
I am passing right by there basically on my way from Frisco to L.A.... I would burn the few hours on a chance
dont want to write a book, and wont try to make a penny off of him- ( check with the Anthony family to see if I need to make money off the bad fortunes of others)
I just want to talk about life and music...
Get my own perspective on the old goat...
St. Circumstance face to face with Charlie Manson ...
But if charlie made those type of revelations to him- why aren't they in there I wonder???
here is one more question about his book maybe someone brighter than me can help with...
One of the chapters in the book is called Polanski... yet Roman is never mentioned in the pages after??? was there some Freudian reference I missed or was supposed to catch???
can anyone think of a legitimate reason for the killers to keep quiet about a connection for all these years?
saint as you said earlier if there was a connection they would have played that card many years ago. i think if there is a connection its between manson and the victims and the killers probably had no idea what they were really there for. the price they paid for that kind of stupidity is to forever be tied to the legend of helter skelter in the publics(and by extention parole boards)eyes. maybe they should'nt get out but thats a whole other subject.
Hey Handsome!! (You know who you are...Hehe) If ANYONE can get to the bottom of this "prior acquaintanceship" mystery..it would definitely be YOU... LOL
Thx Matt, Lyn and Sir C for the thought provoking responses :) Ciao for now!
I don't think that Marlin was trying to convince everyone that Charlie knew the victims. I think he was just relaying what Charlie told him.
I don't think Charlie knew the victims either. Not because Sharon Tate was so "lily white and pure", but simply because I don't think they traveled in the same circles.
Charlie did spend time with high profile musicians at the time, we all know that. But Sharon & Roman hung out more with people in the movie industry. I'm not sure who Abigail, Voytek or Jay hung out with but I don't think they were that into the music industry. And Charlie obviously didn't know Steve Parent.
As far as knowing the LaBiancas, I don't see any connection between them, other than Charlie used to party at the house next door before they moved in. And I don't really think that Charlie was hanging around a lot at the horse track.
Doris Tate also said in an interview that her daughter didn't know Manson.
Of course, I don't know if Doris knew everyone that Sharon knew, but I tend to believe her.
And Tex & Susan both said they didn't know who any of the victims were until after the murders, and we both know they're liars, but on this one, I tend to believe Susan too.
Boy, Marlin had his hands full with those interviewers. They're all talking at once over him!! HA HA.
>>>Carol said: katie, do you think Sharon could have met Manson through her and Roman's friendship with Cass Elliot and Michelle and John Phillips?>>>
Carol that's a good question.
John Phillips didn't think much of Manson. He didn't want anything to do with him. He thought he was more trouble than he was worth.
I do know that Sharon & Roman knew John & Michelle (Roman "knew" Michelle very well...HA HA), but if you look at the circumstances in 1969 you will get a better view of "who knew who".
Sharon & Roman rented the Cielo Drive residence in February of 1969. Melcher moved out in December of 1968.
Roman and Sharon both left in Feb/March 1969 for Europe to make movies. Roman never returned until after the murders. Sharon returned in July 1969.
So Roman and Sharon weren't around much at Cielo Drive.
I've heard that Manson knew Mama Cass. But in 1969, the Mamas & Pappas were having a lot of trouble. John & Michelle were splitting up, Cass was on drugs big time. So they didn't hang out much then.
Sooo....in answer to your question, it might be possible that they encountered Manson at some brief moment, but I find it highly unlikely. And even if they did...I doubt they would have been "good friends".
You'll remember that in March of 1969 when Sharon was getting ready to leave for Europe, Charlie came snooping around to "find out where Melcher was". Sharon saw him and said "who is that?"
Now, either she didn't know him...or she didn't remember him.
I really doubt that Charlie targeted these people for personal reasons. I think it was strictly to get back at "pigs".
And I'll say one more thing. I know that the family knew Gary Hinman, but I've never heard ANY of them express remorse at his death.
This was a guy that went out of his way to help them, time after time. And, they were instrumental in his death, and it never seemed to bother them. And I wouldn't categorize Gary as a "pig".
He's a psychiatric nurse, who had the ambition and time to do the research, interview Charles, write a book, and get a publisher, which is more than the rest of us did!
Personally, I like Marlin. I think he's a really cool cat, friendly, and quite intelligent. He speaks and writes well, and presents himself very sensibly. If I was in California (and invited), I would have spent the day with these guys in a heart-beat.
lots of things could be pointed out that point in that direction...
Many musicians she spent time with in Laurel canyon have admitted to meeting Manson, and Gibby/Voytek lived right across the street. sooo many people wandered in and out of those parties- it is quite possible they didnt even know who he was until after the crimes...
and who would admit to knowing him, or having met him then???
but too many coincidences, and too many books where too many people that they had in common had met both of them- for them to not of have crossed paths at some point...
but I still cant prove it.
For the love of god :)
or whatever you love AC :)
I never said Marlin wasn't a good guy, or his book wasn't a good read....
I just pointed out that his words as far as the case are not any different than any other person who regurgitates whatever charlie happens to be spewing at the moment...
so....
just because he wrote that Charlie said it- doesn't make it necessarily so.
If - in my effort to express that- I insulted Mr. marlin in any way- it was not my intention...
Marlin mentioned that he hadn't talked to Tex, Pat or Leslie.
If he did talk to them, I'll bet that Pat and Leslie would say the same thing...that they didn't know the victims but didn't know if Charlie did or not.
He would probably also get a different version of what Charlie describes about life in the family.
Tex on the other hand, would just say what Marlin wanted to hear, so that would be a moot point anyway.
Mrs.C pulls-up to the front of Corcoran, after killing a couple hours at the local mall.
Saint comes out, all smiles... autographed photo in hand.
Mrs.C pulls away from the curb...
Saint: "Wait, wait, wait... stop the car, STOP THE CAR"!!!!
Mrs.C: "HWhat is it NOW"???????!!
Saint: "I gotta go back in... Charlie spelled "handsome" with a small "h"!! LOLOL
Mrs.C: "Oh, for the love of"... (rolling her eyes). "I've got a black marker in my purse... draw a swastika over it, and your blog buddies will never know the difference"! LOLOL
First, Casey Anthony has been ordered back to Florida to serve one year probation.
Sorry, Florida, you may be stuck with her ass one more year. HA HA.
Also....on Texas versus Warren Jeffs...Warren filed a motion this morning to remove the "woman judge" because "God said". He then went on to warn her that God would send a crippling disease upon her which shall take her life soon.
He was quickly told to sit down and shut up. HA HA HA.
Man, I'd love to be a juror on that trial. HOO HOO.
Katie 8753 Said do you know why he has never expressed remorse at their deaths. I'm assuming that you think he didn't order the murders. Then...if that's so...why wouldn't he express any remorse???? Well I try to answer that. When you deal with Manson you must remember that he has an extra "Dimension" in his body and mind. His only weakness is that he has difficulty in explainig what he want´s to say. He is like someone who has learned to speak french directly from the dictionary but never heard the language spoken. Anyhow, According to Manson himself in the San Quentin interview and actually in ONE of his parole hearings stating comparatively the same thing with Neul Emmens next to him when asked if he felt remorse or guilt he stated There is not need to feel guilty I haven’t done anything I m ashamed of pausing and thinks Maybe I didn’t do enough I might be ashamed for that For not giving enough, for not being aware enough.. for not being more perceptive.. for being stupid. Then he “twists to confuse in the end “Maybe I should have killed 400-500 people then I would have felt better then I would have felt like I REALLY offered society something What he regretted was probably that he did not think more of HOW he put down the words to his family the impact it would have and what potential consequences there would be if he told them just about everything that was going on in his mind. That´s what he is regretting.
I do think he ordered the murders. I was just wondering why he didn't feel remorse...or any sadness for death.
And actually, not just him, but the entire family didn't seem remorseful. At least not until years later at the parole hearings. And maybe even that was fake, I don't know.
I'll give you an example. If I ran over an animal accidentally, I'd feel really bad about it probably for the rest of my life. Even though it wasn't my fault, I'd still feel bad...remorse.
Marlin mentioned in his interview that Charlie didn't even mention that Susan had died. So I'm assuming that didn't bother him. This was a woman who threw her life away for him...and it's like he didn't care.
You know V717, Charlie has a whole 'nother prospective of life in general than I do. That's probably why I will never understand him, the way he thinks...the way he acts.
Katie, Charles knew some of the people who were murdered, and so did others from the Ranch, from the free clinic. Charles knew Polanski.
However, I don't agree they were "his victims", as the vics were killed by Tex Watson, Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenwinkle. If friends of mine killed people, I'd feel bad, I'd feel sorry, but not "remorse" if I hadn't anything to do with the killings.
To visit any prisoner, you have to get the prisoners' permission, pass a background check, have valid ID, not have any felonies on the record. You can't just bring in a camera; you must have the prisoner purchase photo ducats in advance and use the prison's camera. That is so people won't smuggle in stuff inside the camera. You have to leave all your stuff in a locker, be searched, and only carry in your ID, a very few approved personal items, and dollar coins for the vending machines. You can't wear certain colors that are associated with gangs, prisoners' clothing or guards' clothing.
And you have to act respectful to the prisoner, the guards, and the prison itself... I kinda doubt St. C. can be respectful enough of Charles that he'd allow a visit. Would YOU wanna visit with someone who called you a goat, and who is very cavallier in attitude about your situation? It's apparent St. C. doesn't give a fig about ATWA or music, that he's just in it to exploit.
I don't think that Charlie ordered Hinman's murder. I really think that Charlie just wanted some money from Gary. Period. I think that Bobby took it on his own to think that Charlie wanted him dead. Or maybe Bobby just wanted him dead. I don't know.
And maybe Charlie showed remorse for Gary's killing by getting angry. I really don't know.
I can't imagine killing a friend that you had spent time with, had a few yucks with, broken bread together, crashed at his pad, enjoyed his company. And then laughed about it after he was dead (Bobby).
Hi AC. I think St. was just kidding around. I'm sure there are lots of rules regarding prison visits. To protect the prisoners as well as the general public.
But...thanks for pointing all that out. I hope you're doing okay! :)
Don't forget that Bobby had been burned for hundreds of dollars in drugs. Some scary people were coming after him, with the intent of gaining their money or hurting him. That's the motive. Doesn't make it right, but that's why Hinman was killed. Selling dope is a risky business.
AC said: >>>>"BTW Charles used to WORK at a horse track!"<<<<
Now, I'm intrigued. Any other details Ace? I've been betting on these horses for a long time. LOL =========================== Ac said: >>>>"Charles knew some of the people who were murdered, from the free clinic. Charles knew Polanski".<<<<
Well AC, you say that Charlie knew some of the victims. And the family did from the Free Clinic. I'm assuming you're talking about Folger, since she's the only one who had anything to do with it.
You say Charlie knew Polanski. I can't disprove this, although I've never seen any proof of it.
Maybe "remorse" is the wrong word. Maybe I should have just said "sadness". That makes more sense. I would think Charlie would have sadness when Susan died, not remorse. He didn't cause cancer.
I didn't know Charlie worked at the race track. In Vegas???? Can you tell me when?
Katie 8753 You are talking about moral. In prison there are other rules and other moral concept than outside prison. I have never been to jail so this is just something I have read about. But consider what Charlie must have seen or experienced after over sixty years inside prison. That must have shaped his mind considerable. If you wan´t to survive in that kind of enviroment you can´t afford to feel pity for one death. You must take care of youself because no one care about if you live or die inside prison. No I don´t feel sorry for him. But I am convinced that he is not guilty to conspiracy to murder.
Wasn't Tex's girlfriend Rosina really Deana Martin (Dean Martin's daughter)? Didn't Angela Lansbury give written permission for her underage daughter to hang out with the Manson Family (before the murders)? I think a lot of Hollywood people knew Manson than are willing to admit.
V717, I'm sure that Charlie's life in prison shaped what he is now. I have no doubt about that. I can't imagine spending that much time in prison, so I don't even know how that feels.
You have to ask yourself why? Why did he spend most of his life in prison? Well, the answer to that is...he took the easy way out. Every time. When he was released from prison and had a wife and child, he had a chance to get out and get a job, support his family, be a good man. But he chose not to.
Those are choices we make in life. And he chose the "easy road". Stealing and pimping. So back to prison he goes.
So his imprisonment was his fault for the most part.
No Carol, I know that Deana met Tex at a party, but the rest is inflated.
>>Didn't Angela Lansbury give written permission for her underage daughter to hang out with the Manson Family (before the murders)?>>>
Yes Angela Lansbury did give her daughter Diedre written permission to hang with Manson, as she was a minor. I think Angela was sick of raising her and was ready to be done with her. A common ailment in the 60's because teens were getting too hard to control.
Diedre didn't stay long enough to be involved in murder. She wised up.
>>>I think a lot of Hollywood people knew Manson than are willing to admit.>>>
I think there were probably a lot of people who might have "bumped into" him, but as far as being "good friends", I really doubt it. These people for the most part didn't need Charlie supplying them with drugs or dames. They could get them without him. And that was his biggest draw on the younger naive set.
I will agree with one point V717 made: I don't think life-long criminals are "effected", by death and violence... the same way, as the average citizen. Those guys experience violence and death frequently...
Bottom line here is, I think, that Charles Manson could have made something of his life, especially when he was released in 1967.
He was interested in music. He could have contacted music companies and tried to make his way into the music business. Or he could have gotten a real job recapping tires or waiting tables until something came thru.
But he chose to gather young girls who had either been outcast by their families or were just plain bored with life, and be a nomad, filling people's minds with "religious rhethoric" that he'd picked up in prison. He knew what people wanted to hear, and he said it to them.
He was basically a pimp again, I guess he never wanted to rise above that. I guess it was a familiar and friendly "occupation".
Anyway, Charlie's final incarceration was his own fault. He thought a lot more of himself than he should have. It's too bad he didn't become a productive member of society. Maybe he could have really gone somewhere with his music. And maybe 9 people wouldn't have died for no reason.
The Pattys drove right up to the gate at Corcoran one time. Not sure what we were looking for, a gift shop maybe? Anywhoo we got to the little kiosk and this huge guard steps out. Patty says "Oops, I think I'd better turn around." The guard says, "Uh huh."
>>>Patty said: The Pattys drove right up to the gate at Corcoran one time. Not sure what we were looking for, a gift shop maybe? Anywhoo we got to the little kiosk and this huge guard steps out. Patty says "Oops, I think I'd better turn around." The guard says, "Uh huh.">>>
HA HA. That's probably a good idea. If I was going to vacation in the beautiful state of California, I'm sure stopping at any prison would definitely not be on my list. :)
ACFisherAldag said...>>>> Don't forget that Bobby had been burned for hundreds of dollars in drugs. Some scary people were coming after him, with the intent of gaining their money or hurting him. That's the motive. Doesn't make it right, but that's why Hinman was killed. Selling dope is a risky business.<<<<
Agree that selling drugs is a risky business, but what you say about motive may or may not be true.
It's also possible that a paranoid Charlie, thinking he'd shot and killed a scary black panther, needed money to get away, and thought Gary had some...
Why did Mary Brunner and Susan go with Bobby to Gary's house?
I do think that Charlie wanted Gary's money. And I do think it was to escape from what he thought was going to be really bad for him if he didn't.
But I really don't know why Gary was killed. Except for what Bobby said: he thought Gary might go to the police. Which, if you stop and think about it, doesn't make much sense. Getting in trouble for holding someone hostage and roughing them up is a lot better than getting in trouble for murder.
I don't see how killing Gary made Bobby or Charlie any better off. It seems like it just made things worse.
I'm not sure why Mary & Sadie went to Gary's. Should we just call this a "botched home invasion"? :)
CarolMR said... Thanks, katie, for clearing up my Rosina question. I had read on another site that she was definitely Deana.
Hi Carol,
In her book about life with her father, Deana Martin talks about her friendship with Terry Melcher and meeting Charlie and Tex at Cielo Drive when Terry was living there.
St. Circumstance said>>>if only Gary wasn't a drug dealer..
Sigh....>>>
Hi St. Circumstance, didn't quote all of your great post, just wanted to to say i liked it... :)
Standing in line last night in the grocery store...saw the tabs with George and Cindy Anthony kissing dolphins in the Bahamas...! Had to smile knowing it was true they were really there. :)
Marliese I was thinking that when Deana Martin testified at the trial that she was shown a picture of Tex and she didn't recognize him because it was a picture of him from high school.
I think Bugliosi was trying to show how Tex went from an "ordinary Joe" to a drug-riddled baby killer.
I found this excerpt from Deana Martin's autobiography...
"But at one point in Deana’s life, the Hollyood-bright circles in which she ran intercepted a darker one, and she encountered a more sinister sort of celebrity. Charles Manson and Deana met at a house party before he gained notoriety as the creepily charismatic leader of the murderous Manson Family. Back then, he was an aspiring musician, writing songs and courting a deal with Terry Melcher, an Apple Records producer whom Deana was dating. In her book, she writes that Manson played guitar at the party while she and a group of friends watched. She didn’t know Manson, but he recognized her. Giving her a silver ring off his own finger, he asked, “You’re Dean Martin’s daughter, aren’t you?” The story at its most chilling is best read from the pages of her book, but by the time the ordeal ended, Deana had learned that her brother, Dean Paul, was on the Manson Family’s hit list, and Deana might have been there as well. The police didn’t comment when she asked. She writes: “While Manson had given me the creeps, I’d never for one minute suspected that he could be guilty of such a heinous crime. It shook me to the core, to think that I could have been one of his targets.” The first of the Manson Family murders took place at the home where Deana had initially encountered Manson."
Charlie knew Gary, Crow & Shorty. But as I said before, I don't believe he knew the others. I know he didn't know Parent....unless he was also hanging around high schools. LOL.
He may have encountered the other Cielo Drive victims at some point...MAY have. But he wasn't good friends with them.
And I can't imagine that he knew the Labiancas. I've never seen any proof that he did. Just other people's opinions.
As I said before, your comments are usually very interesting, which invoke conversation. Which is good!! HA HA.
Hey Katie - I am a huge Dean Martin fan and would like to read her book just becuase of that...so I will go to the library and scour the actual book to see what she says...I had to place a hold on it at the library since it was already checked out...St, did you beat me to it???
Oh Mary...I LOVE Dean Martin!!! I used to watch his hour long variety show every week back in the 60's. I've downloaded all his songs. My favorite is "Not Enough Indians". HA HA.
I was also a big fan of Dino, Desi & Billy, which featured Dean Paul. He was soooo cute!!! I was so sad when he died. I think it just about did Dean in.
Mary said...<<<< Hey Katie - I am a huge Dean Martin fan and would like to read her book just becuase of that...so I will go to the library and scour the actual book to see what she says...I had to place a hold on it at the library since it was already checked out...St, did you beat me to it???
Will let you know what it says when it comes in <<<<
The one i have is "Memories are Made of This"...Dean Martin, through his daughter's eyes.
One thing that surprised me was hearing how difficult life had been for his older children...before they came to live with Jeanne and Dean and the younger kids.
She speaks lovingly of Dino, and kindly of Olivia Hussey and Dorothy Hamill. Katie, you're right...Dean never recovered from Dino's death.
Think i read somewhere that Olivia Hussey was represented by Rudy Altobelli and rented the Cielo house from him after she and Dino were divorced...not sure if that's ever been confirmed though. Would have been early to mid 70's.
She talks about dating Terry Melcher, no mention of Candace, and meeting Manson and Tex a few times 'at Terry's house' on Cielo. Another time she mentions seeing Manson, Tex and Squeaky at the house. She says Manson was using his friendship with Dennis Wilson to influence Terry about signing him.
She says Manson...looking like any other hippie from the Strip in those days, said you're Dean Martin's daughter, aren't you? and took off a little ring he was wearing and gave it to her, and that after the murders her father was furious she'd even met him, and worried for her safety.
I didn't realize that Deana & Dean Paul were on the "hit list". <<<<<
Katie, in the Memories book about her father, Deana says that after the murders, Dean received a scary letter threatening murder against 'certain members of our family' ...she says he turned it over to the FBI and that they didn't realize what it was all about until several months later when she was contacted by the police for questioning about knowing Manson...
Thanks Marliese! I'll have to see if I can find that book. Sounds interesting.
I never knew that Deana dated Terry Melcher. That's interesting. Must have been before he dated Candace.
That must have been so hard for witnesses in this trial to testify, knowing that their lives were being threatened. It was scary because so many of the family members weren't in jail. That made the prosecution's job even harder to get a conviction.
It's amazing that Bugliosi even got convictions on all of them!
I never knew that Deana dated Terry Melcher. That's interesting. Must have been before he dated Candace.<<<<<
Hi Katie, yeah, i don't get her time on being with Melcher either.
She also says that her older sister Claudia dated him first, that he was always around the Martin house, very cool and great looking. So that would have been before Candace.
She says "i was dating Terry Melcher" but maybe it was more like family friends hanging out...because of the timeline when its known he was living with Candace at Cielo.
Marliese I was doing some checking and trying to find out when Terry moved into Cielo Drive, and I came up with in 1966 he and Mark Lindsay moved to Cielo Drive. I can't for the life of me find out when Melcher started seeing Candace, but I'm pretty sure that Melcher was already living at Cielo Drive when Candace moved in.
Sooooo....if Deana was seeing Melcher at Cielo Drive and met Tex & Charlie, then I'm assuming it would have to be in the spring/summer of 1968, because I believe that's when the Family started living with Wilson and met Melcher. But...I'm thinking Melcher was seeing Candace then.
This is confusing! Was he two-timing them? Double dipping?? HA HA.
Maybe so! Or maybe it's more she had a crush on an older guy and confuses hanging around his house with 'dating Terry Melcher'. LOL! Ooops, i just won't mention Candace was sleeping with him while I was 'dating' him and met Charlie Manson at their house. :)
Kind of odd she doesn't even mention Candace. so I have no idea!
Oh yeah, you said Olivia Hussey supposedly lived at Cielo Drive at some point in the 70's.
I was just remembering that Olivia Hussey was "supposedly" seeing Christopher Jones, right after Christopher Jones "supposedly" had an affair with Sharon Tate. Jones has been connected to Cielo Drive too.
Boy, I need a scorecard to keep all these people straight.
"Can't tell who the players are without a scorecard!!"
I read Ed Sanders' book many years ago,but I remember that he made a lot of claims of Charlie and Co. being very involved with specific Hollywood stars. Sanders didn't name names, though. He wrote these claims in the form of "blind items."
I have no doubt that Charlie got around. He probably did meet a lot of stars, as well as musicians. But....you can schmooze all night, but never get close to anyone.
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that most of these Hollywood types that brushed shoulders with Manson didn't even recall it until they saw his name in the papers about the TLB murders. Then they cringed.
i think melcher was either cheating on bergen the whole time they were together or they had an open relationship. melcher, wilson, and jacobson had a formed a little club with the descriptive name of "the golden penetrators."
>>Beauders said: i think melcher was either cheating on bergen the whole time they were together or they had an open relationship. melcher, wilson, and jacobson had a formed a little club with the descriptive name of "the golden penetrators.">>>
There are lots of organized crime outfits. Italians, Greeks, Asians, Jews, plain ol' white boys. Called syndicates, or gangs, or families, or whatever in their own languages. Or just outfits. Mafia is just the word for it in Italian. Or Cosa Nostra. Charles met some of their leadership in prison, of varying factions.
Then, as now, the various well-healed leaders of crime "gangs" used others for their enforcements. Then, as now, it was bike clubs. (Although now it's more Latino gangs.) Charles was a mechanic who serviced motorcycles, and he also had connections in prison, with people suitable to do enforcements against those who owed money to the large syndicates.
The person who was in control of this particular enforcement wasn't Italian. They were well involved with supplying Hollywood with its vices. Gambling, women, drugs.
You keep saying "drug burn", which is true of Frykowski. Not true of LaBianca. That was gambling. The gang doesn't care if you owe money for drugs or gambling or buying too much red licorice... it only cares you owe money.
So a guy comes to Charles and asks, "Do you know anyone can do this job?" And Watson is fairly jumping up and down, yelling, "Me! Me! I'll do it!"
Watson wanted membership in a bike club. He had pussied out at the dustup w/ the black pimp, and was aching to prove himself.
Hinman was an independent thing, between Bobby and Gary. Shea was an independent thing, between Shorty and Bruce. However, Frykowski, Seabring and LaBianca had the motivation of owing the wrong people money.
Asked Marliese: "Why did Mary Brunner and Susan go with Bobby to Gary's house?"
And why did women come along on the raids at the Tate Polanski house, and to the LaBianca house?
Because Bobby and Tex were wimps. There is a code about not bringing women along on jobs. It puts the women in danger, and it is a surefire way to get caught!
117 comments:
Thanks for letting us know Lynyrd!!
I wish the best for Backporch Tapes, or whatever moniker they may have in the future.
They provided us with countless hours of enjoyment!!! I surely hope to encounter them again!
I hope they show Mr. Marynick a good time. Lots to see in CA!!!
Marlin, Michael, and Josh rocking at Spahn's!
NICE!!!!
In this interview with Marlin Marynic he corroborate that the murders and the victims all knew each other. As I have been saying all the time these murders was not random killings as Vincent Bug states. The perpetrators was not on some holy crusade to ignite HELTER SKELTER. These murders was about money and drugs.
It was Vincent Bug who created the myth about Charles Manson as the evil guru who duped his followers to commit gruesome murders.
Here is a beautiful clip from Spahn Ranch 2009.
http://www.vimeo.com/3448138
Does anyone know if any of the killers, other than Charlie, ever claimed that they knew Stephen, Sharon, Jay, Voytek or Gibbie? Of everything I have read or seen, I cannot recall Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkle, or Tex ever stating that they knew the victims at the Tate house. You would think one of them would have, were it true!
With all due respect to Marlin...
Who is Marlin?
A male nurse from Canada who is interested in Charlie like we are...
He spoke to him directly- but so does AC and Star and greywolf.
do we believe anything Charlie says now because it is coming from Marlin- versus any of the others?
it is still coming from Charlie-
Marlin went an extra step than we did- he actually went and met the old goat for himself...
other than that- he was no more there than any of us were- and Charlie is very unreliable with his stories, and as he gets older I am sure his memory gets worse and worse- and likes to play games more and more.
In fact- I am less likely myself to listen to anything Charlie has to say now than I was 15 or twenty years ago- no matter who it comes from...
Which still does not mean any of this is NOT true- it could be...
But Marlin just showing up and solving the puzzle and getting Charlie to admit to all the long lost secrets- from a suddenly sharp/reflective and honest Chsarlie??????
Lady Ram- nowhere in anything I have read, watched, or listnened to can anyone place any of the actual murderers ( not including Charlie) Patty/ Tex/Sadie/Lulu- with any of the victims. not in any one of hours of Parole hearings after all these years- when they are trying there very best to be honest and remorseful- nor anywhere else...
Bobby can be seen in one movie which Jay is also in- but no evidence they knew each other, and Bobby was locked up when TLB went down.... ( Mondo Hollywood was the movie)
otherwise- nothing at all anywhere- besides rumors, stories, and innuendos on the blogs...
I have been searching for years for direct proof they knew each other. It is a major part of my personal theory. There are many places in print where you can almost smell how close Charlie came into contact with some of them in Laurel Canyon- but nothing definitive...
that I have found there or anywhere else...
The fact of the matter is....
as much as I believe there was more to it personally...
There is as much evidence that Sadie and the rest of them learned who they killed the next day watching TV at Spahn ranch....
as anything esle
Sadie is a good example because she is a big mouth who cant be trusted by everyone account...
she has had several versions of the truth, and none mentions knowing the victims- even the one she wrote on her deathbed... why would she keep that one small thing to herself? it would have made her story less frightening to know this if it were true- and she tried everything under the sun to get out...
Tex wrote three books that touch this subject- never mentions knowing victims in any of them...
Katie- they say- is the truly most remorseful today... nothing from her either in 40 plus years...
These people couldn't keep killing people a secret for one year- but they could keep why they did it a secret for 40????
does that make sense to any of you????
I want to find desperately they knew each other...
but not ready to accept it becuase Marlin says Charlie says so...
Frankly as well,
I am much better looking than Marlin, and when I post my pic in front of that sign next Spring- it will be much easier on the eyes...
maybe I will blow some dough and stop in and see the old goat while I am out there....
maybe AC can pull some strings for me and get me in to talk to him- if I put a few hundred in his canteen account and make a nice contribution to ATWA....
But I have my own set of questions for him that might not be much help in the solving of the case...
I wanna know which one was the hottest on the matress in the outlaw shacks...
and if he made them bathe first?
did Elmer really get him high- or did he have his own stash on the side????
Did Squeaky really bang that old fart and did he ever watch?
How has prison sex changed his opinion of black people?
Does he ask Star to play " midnight express" when she comes to visit??
Is Gerywolf really Brooks Posten hiding behind a beard??
Is he keeping track of the apocalypse with a sundial- because he waited his whole life to end to see the end of his life....
Then I go outside smoke a dube- and get on with my vacation
I will come back with some funny answers, and interesting stuff- but I wont come home with why TLB happened- and I dont think Marlin did either.
i don't think that admitting to knowing the victims would get any of them out of jail any sooner.
but on the other hand why not admit it if they did?
It's sounds like Saint has the real "hard-hitting" questions lined-up for Charlie... those questions, which "inquiring minds", really want to know! LOLOL
Saint's Book Title:
"Everything you ever wanted to know... but, were afraid to ask"! : )
It would be my guess, that Manson would probably enjoy that type of light-hearted discussion from a visitor... compared to being grilled over TLB yet again.
As I said... just my guess.
Matt- admitting they knew them, and giving a reason other than what we are left with- would make the crime more understandable- and make those who committed them more human. Katie/Tex/Leslie and Susan spent almost 3/4 of there adult lives trying to get out of prison. If you have ever read any of the transcripts of any of there parole hearings- the common theme is that they feel they are being treated unfairly because of the notoriety of the " commitment offense" as they call it. If any of them could have given a realistic reason for what happened- it would have gone a long way towards de-mystifying the sensationalism of the crime...
See what Bobby did as an example. He has tried as hard as he can to make this not about the Manson family- and all about a drug burn... If you have read his blog- he is adamant he is " not a member nor has he ever been a member" the association alone over the sheer horror of what they did is enough. The horror is generated by the lack of comprehension of why this had to happen as brutally as it did. At least a reason people could understand- makes him a guy caught up in a bad situation- bot a brutal monster...
But none of the others ever went that route- and you have to wonder why...
Bobby says on his own site in his own words he is in prison over a terribly misconceived drug deal gone bad or something like that...
he wants people to think he is in jail for 40 years over killing a drug dealer
this isn't as bad as being associated with the other idiot who says
Im the devil and I am here to do the devils work...
now -they both stabbed someone to death...
but down the road when trying to explain how and why...
who are you going to give the second chance to?? ( if either)
But Tex never tried that- even after he got religion and could have used that as a crutch to change his story...
after all- God forgave him for so much- would one more lie have hurt ????
As for Marlin... I think everyone is over-thinking this whole thing.
Marlin wrote a book (semi-recently) based on his experience with Manson, .
He's a figure in this Manson topic... and he traveled from Canada to view Spahn's... with another staple in "Manson-world"... Michael.
It's current, interesting news.
I got the same "backlash" when I posted the thread regarding Bugliosi, making a public appearance... albeit, from a different group of bloggers.
Everyone has a right to their opinion... that's what makes blogs tick... and creates participation.
But, I just want to make a couple things clear:
No one is proporting that because Marlin takes Manson's word at face value... (regarding folks at Spahn's and Cielo, knowing each other)... that we ALL have to believe that, as well.
Marlin has a right to his opinion, as we have a right to ours.
I don't think Marlin... or his book... proport to "solve the case".
In fact... that was never his goal.
Marlin is a psychiatric nurse.
He describes his relationship with Manson as "therapeutic".
Marlin attempts to give us an inner-look at "Manson the man, today"... sorta speak.
Marlin does not claim to be a defense attorney.
At any rate:
I think Marlin presented himself in a very professional, courteous, sensible, and responsible manner in the televised interview.
There is nothing "sensational" about the man, what-so-ever.
I've always been "open" to the possibility, that some folks from Spahn's, may have known some folks from Cielo.
Although, I would never take Manson's word alone, as evidence.
Evidently, Marlin feels Manson's word, is convincing enough for him... but, from my vantage point... he doesn't seem overly interested in influencing others to believe the same.
The guy seems pretty laid-back to me.
Bottom line:
I just don't think it is... or ever was... Marlin's goal... to "solve the case".
I don't think that was his motivation, when interviewing Manson... writing the book... or doing this televised program.
The man is a psychiatric nurse.
I think everyone is WAY over-thinking this.
If folks want to discuss whether or not Manson and company, knew the folks at Cielo... that's fine with me.
I just don't see the need to insult Marlin... a man none of us have met... in the process.
Tell you what...
My gift to this blog- no promises because it is out of my hands...
I will send the request- and pay whatever the price to visit Charlie if we will take me as a visitor
open invitation to all those who say they are in the know with Chuckie..
I am going to ask for an application to visit him- and fill out the paperwork..
I am passing right by there basically on my way from Frisco to L.A.... I would burn the few hours on a chance
dont want to write a book, and wont try to make a penny off of him- ( check with the Anthony family to see if I need to make money off the bad fortunes of others)
I just want to talk about life and music...
Get my own perspective on the old goat...
St. Circumstance face to face with Charlie Manson ...
lol he wouldn't get a word in edgewise...
but I may try it...
like I said- I am much more handsome than Marlin
but that's not an insult to him..
I am more handsome than alot of guys :)
and I liked his book too...
But if charlie made those type of revelations to him- why aren't they in there I wonder???
here is one more question about his book maybe someone brighter than me can help with...
One of the chapters in the book is called Polanski... yet Roman is never mentioned in the pages after??? was there some Freudian reference I missed or was supposed to catch???
Maybe Ill catch him on a lucky day and he will be bored and see me...
I know that it says in Marlins book you cant just walk up and visit- but I have 8 months to go through the process..
just maybe that day in May when I show up- he walks into the room...
ya know- sometimes I seem to get lucky like that :)
L/S im home today and bored and buzzed- I am trying more to joke about myself than make fun of Marlin...
I read his book in one day, and loved it.
dont mind me...
can anyone think of a legitimate reason for the killers to keep quiet about a connection for all these years?
saint as you said earlier if there was a connection they would have played that card many years ago.
i think if there is a connection its between manson and the victims and the killers probably had no idea what they were really there for. the price they paid for that kind of stupidity is to forever be tied to the legend of helter skelter in the publics(and by extention parole boards)eyes.
maybe they should'nt get out but thats a whole other subject.
Matt that's where I am as well...
I think Charlie met them through his connections in the music industry, and the other idiots were solving a problem they knew nothing about..
but I cant prove it until I prove he knew them...
Hey Handsome!! (You know who you are...Hehe) If ANYONE can get to the bottom of this "prior acquaintanceship" mystery..it would definitely be YOU... LOL
Thx Matt, Lyn and Sir C for the thought provoking responses :)
Ciao for now!
Sorry I botched the previous comment!! HA HA.
I don't think that Marlin was trying to convince everyone that Charlie knew the victims. I think he was just relaying what Charlie told him.
I don't think Charlie knew the victims either. Not because Sharon Tate was so "lily white and pure", but simply because I don't think they traveled in the same circles.
Charlie did spend time with high profile musicians at the time, we all know that. But Sharon & Roman hung out more with people in the movie industry. I'm not sure who Abigail, Voytek or Jay hung out with but I don't think they were that into the music industry. And Charlie obviously didn't know Steve Parent.
As far as knowing the LaBiancas, I don't see any connection between them, other than Charlie used to party at the house next door before they moved in. And I don't really think that Charlie was hanging around a lot at the horse track.
Anyway....just my humble opinion. LOL.
Doris Tate also said in an interview that her daughter didn't know Manson.
Of course, I don't know if Doris knew everyone that Sharon knew, but I tend to believe her.
And Tex & Susan both said they didn't know who any of the victims were until after the murders, and we both know they're liars, but on this one, I tend to believe Susan too.
Boy, Marlin had his hands full with those interviewers. They're all talking at once over him!! HA HA.
katie, do you think Sharon could have met Manson through her and Roman's friendship with Cass Elliot and Michelle and John Phillips?
>>>Carol said: katie, do you think Sharon could have met Manson through her and Roman's friendship with Cass Elliot and Michelle and John Phillips?>>>
Carol that's a good question.
John Phillips didn't think much of Manson. He didn't want anything to do with him. He thought he was more trouble than he was worth.
I do know that Sharon & Roman knew John & Michelle (Roman "knew" Michelle very well...HA HA), but if you look at the circumstances in 1969 you will get a better view of "who knew who".
Sharon & Roman rented the Cielo Drive residence in February of 1969. Melcher moved out in December of 1968.
Roman and Sharon both left in Feb/March 1969 for Europe to make movies. Roman never returned until after the murders. Sharon returned in July 1969.
So Roman and Sharon weren't around much at Cielo Drive.
I've heard that Manson knew Mama Cass. But in 1969, the Mamas & Pappas were having a lot of trouble. John & Michelle were splitting up, Cass was on drugs big time. So they didn't hang out much then.
Sooo....in answer to your question, it might be possible that they encountered Manson at some brief moment, but I find it highly unlikely. And even if they did...I doubt they would have been "good friends".
You'll remember that in March of 1969 when Sharon was getting ready to leave for Europe, Charlie came snooping around to "find out where Melcher was". Sharon saw him and said "who is that?"
Now, either she didn't know him...or she didn't remember him.
I really doubt that Charlie targeted these people for personal reasons. I think it was strictly to get back at "pigs".
And I'll say one more thing. I know that the family knew Gary Hinman, but I've never heard ANY of them express remorse at his death.
This was a guy that went out of his way to help them, time after time. And, they were instrumental in his death, and it never seemed to bother them. And I wouldn't categorize Gary as a "pig".
Hey Circumstance! If you go to California and want to meet with Charlie, just do a "jig around" and ask him a quick question to see if he knew Sharon.
You know...."Charlie, how are you, how're they treating you here in the big house....are things going well...?
And then quickly throw in the question:
"What was Sharon's dog's name?"
Then we'll find out if he knew Sharon. HA HA.
Who is Marlin?
He's a psychiatric nurse, who had the ambition and time to do the research, interview Charles, write a book, and get a publisher, which is more than the rest of us did!
Hi AC. Do you think that Charlie knew his victims?
And if so...do you know why he has never expressed remorse at their deaths.
I'm assuming that you think he didn't order the murders.
Then...if that's so...why wouldn't he express any remorse????
Just wondering???
Hi AC!
Personally, I like Marlin.
I think he's a really cool cat, friendly, and quite intelligent.
He speaks and writes well, and presents himself very sensibly.
If I was in California (and invited), I would have spent the day with these guys in a heart-beat.
Peace... Lynyrd
AC I hope you're doing okay. I always liked you.
I'm going to bed now.
Ciao. :)
Carol I think he met them through Mama Cass....
lots of things could be pointed out that point in that direction...
Many musicians she spent time with in Laurel canyon have admitted to meeting Manson, and Gibby/Voytek lived right across the street. sooo many people wandered in and out of those parties- it is quite possible they didnt even know who he was until after the crimes...
and who would admit to knowing him, or having met him then???
but too many coincidences, and too many books where too many people that they had in common had met both of them- for them to not of have crossed paths at some point...
but I still cant prove it.
For the love of god :)
or whatever you love AC :)
I never said Marlin wasn't a good guy, or his book wasn't a good read....
I just pointed out that his words as far as the case are not any different than any other person who regurgitates whatever charlie happens to be spewing at the moment...
so....
just because he wrote that Charlie said it- doesn't make it necessarily so.
If - in my effort to express that- I insulted Mr. marlin in any way- it was not my intention...
And i did give him credit for going the extra step none of us did...
although I am considering going that step myself...
Saint!!
Take that extra step Brother!!!! LOLOL
Just don't come home brainwashed. : )
...and in AC's case, it's "for the love of God(s)"!! hahaha
PS:
If you do "take that extra step", bring a camera!
AHahahaha
Thats, lynyrdskynyrdband@... LOLOL
Marlin mentioned that he hadn't talked to Tex, Pat or Leslie.
If he did talk to them, I'll bet that Pat and Leslie would say the same thing...that they didn't know the victims but didn't know if Charlie did or not.
He would probably also get a different version of what Charlie describes about life in the family.
Tex on the other hand, would just say what Marlin wanted to hear, so that would be a moot point anyway.
L/S- believe it or not...
I LOVE cameras ;)
Don't think for one minute I wouldn't snap a few pictures of the " most Evil man on earth" standing next to the most handsome one...
AHahahaha
Seriously... how can you not love this guy? : )
I can see it now:
"Charlie... just go ahead and autograph that to handsome... h, a, n.... ; )
lol...
That's what I love about you St.
You're humble and funny. HA HA.
I have my moments :)
St. says..."Don't think for one minute I wouldn't snap a few pictures of the " most Evil man on earth" standing next to the most handsome one..."
St. - I don't think Manson is handsome at all! LOL...please let this comment go through and stay through!
HI MARY!!!
>>>Mary said: St. - I don't think Manson is handsome at all! LOL...please let this comment go through and stay through!>>>
That's a good one Mary!!! Glad you're back!!!
LOL ...
Touche my lady
Mrs.C pulls-up to the front of Corcoran, after killing a couple hours at the local mall.
Saint comes out, all smiles... autographed photo in hand.
Mrs.C pulls away from the curb...
Saint:
"Wait, wait, wait... stop the car, STOP THE CAR"!!!!
Mrs.C:
"HWhat is it NOW"???????!!
Saint:
"I gotta go back in... Charlie spelled "handsome" with a small "h"!! LOLOL
Mrs.C:
"Oh, for the love of"... (rolling her eyes).
"I've got a black marker in my purse... draw a swastika over it, and your blog buddies will never know the difference"! LOLOL
"I'm NOT going back to that mall". LOL
She pulls outta Corcoran on two wheels...
AHahahaha
I'm just bustin' Bro! LOLOL
C'mon... it was kinda funny.
I'll stop now... : )
That was VERY funny..
:)
the possibilities are limitless...
>>Lynyrd said: She pulls outta Corcoran on two wheels...AHahahaha>>>
LOLOL!
Mrs. C: "I told you before, I'm not gonna let this Manson stuff ruin my vacation!!
Now put down that laptop and let's head to the tour of the movie stars' homes".
HA HA HA HA.
Okay...a couple of updates.
First, Casey Anthony has been ordered back to Florida to serve one year probation.
Sorry, Florida, you may be stuck with her ass one more year. HA HA.
Also....on Texas versus Warren Jeffs...Warren filed a motion this morning to remove the "woman judge" because "God said". He then went on to warn her that God would send a crippling disease upon her which shall take her life soon.
He was quickly told to sit down and shut up. HA HA HA.
Man, I'd love to be a juror on that trial. HOO HOO.
Older man...
lots of younger chics flocked around him... groups of followers- multiple parnters
gets busted- compares himself to god- threatens Armageddon if he is not left alone to live with his " chosen poeple"...
wants to defend himself- and then uses the time to preach his gospel..
I really cant wait to get out west... sounds like things haven't changed that much...
Hey St., are you talking about Manson or Jeffs? Or does it really matter?
Those cult leaders...can't live with 'em.....can't live without 'em.
HA HA.
Katie 8753 Said
do you know why he has never expressed remorse at their deaths.
I'm assuming that you think he didn't order the murders.
Then...if that's so...why wouldn't he express any remorse????
Well I try to answer that.
When you deal with Manson you must remember that he has an extra "Dimension" in his body and mind. His only weakness is that he has difficulty in explainig what he want´s to say. He is like someone who has learned to speak french directly from the dictionary but never heard the language spoken.
Anyhow, According to Manson himself in the San Quentin interview and actually in ONE of his parole hearings stating comparatively the same thing with Neul Emmens next to him when asked if he felt remorse or guilt he stated There is not need to feel guilty I haven’t done anything I m ashamed of pausing and thinks Maybe I didn’t do enough I might be ashamed for that For not giving enough, for not being aware enough.. for not being more perceptive.. for being stupid. Then he “twists to confuse in the end “Maybe I should have killed 400-500 people then I would have felt better then I would have felt like I REALLY offered society something What he regretted was probably that he did not think more of HOW he put down the words to his family the impact it would have and what potential consequences there would be if he told them just about everything that was going on in his mind. That´s what he is regretting.
Hi V717.
I do think he ordered the murders. I was just wondering why he didn't feel remorse...or any sadness for death.
And actually, not just him, but the entire family didn't seem remorseful. At least not until years later at the parole hearings. And maybe even that was fake, I don't know.
I'll give you an example. If I ran over an animal accidentally, I'd feel really bad about it probably for the rest of my life. Even though it wasn't my fault, I'd still feel bad...remorse.
Marlin mentioned in his interview that Charlie didn't even mention that Susan had died. So I'm assuming that didn't bother him. This was a woman who threw her life away for him...and it's like he didn't care.
You know V717, Charlie has a whole 'nother prospective of life in general than I do. That's probably why I will never understand him, the way he thinks...the way he acts.
Katie, Charles knew some of the people who were murdered, and so did others from the Ranch, from the free clinic. Charles knew Polanski.
However, I don't agree they were "his victims", as the vics were killed by Tex Watson, Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenwinkle. If friends of mine killed people, I'd feel bad, I'd feel sorry, but not "remorse" if I hadn't anything to do with the killings.
BTW Charles used to WORK at a horse track!
To visit any prisoner, you have to get the prisoners' permission, pass a background check, have valid ID, not have any felonies on the record. You can't just bring in a camera; you must have the prisoner purchase photo ducats in advance and use the prison's camera. That is so people won't smuggle in stuff inside the camera. You have to leave all your stuff in a locker, be searched, and only carry in your ID, a very few approved personal items, and dollar coins for the vending machines. You can't wear certain colors that are associated with gangs, prisoners' clothing or guards' clothing.
And you have to act respectful to the prisoner, the guards, and the prison itself... I kinda doubt St. C. can be respectful enough of Charles that he'd allow a visit. Would YOU wanna visit with someone who called you a goat, and who is very cavallier in attitude about your situation? It's apparent St. C. doesn't give a fig about ATWA or music, that he's just in it to exploit.
I don't think that Charlie ordered Hinman's murder. I really think that Charlie just wanted some money from Gary. Period. I think that Bobby took it on his own to think that Charlie wanted him dead. Or maybe Bobby just wanted him dead. I don't know.
And maybe Charlie showed remorse for Gary's killing by getting angry. I really don't know.
I can't imagine killing a friend that you had spent time with, had a few yucks with, broken bread together, crashed at his pad, enjoyed his company. And then laughed about it after he was dead (Bobby).
It boggles my mind!!
Hi AC. I think St. was just kidding around. I'm sure there are lots of rules regarding prison visits. To protect the prisoners as well as the general public.
But...thanks for pointing all that out. I hope you're doing okay! :)
Don't forget that Bobby had been burned for hundreds of dollars in drugs. Some scary people were coming after him, with the intent of gaining their money or hurting him. That's the motive. Doesn't make it right, but that's why Hinman was killed. Selling dope is a risky business.
Doing great, thank you! And how are you?
AC said:
>>>>"BTW Charles used to WORK at a horse track!"<<<<
Now, I'm intrigued.
Any other details Ace?
I've been betting on these horses for a long time. LOL
===========================
Ac said:
>>>>"Charles knew some of the people who were murdered, from the free clinic. Charles knew Polanski".<<<<
Go on...
Ace, you've said a couple times, that an "organized group" was involved with LaBianca... "but, not the Italians".
Would you care to expand on that topic, for the first time, this evening? LOL
Bikers?
Well AC, you say that Charlie knew some of the victims. And the family did from the Free Clinic. I'm assuming you're talking about Folger, since she's the only one who had anything to do with it.
You say Charlie knew Polanski. I can't disprove this, although I've never seen any proof of it.
Maybe "remorse" is the wrong word. Maybe I should have just said "sadness". That makes more sense. I would think Charlie would have sadness when Susan died, not remorse. He didn't cause cancer.
I didn't know Charlie worked at the race track. In Vegas???? Can you tell me when?
Thanks for posting AC!!!
>>AC said: Doing great, thank you! And how are you?>>
I'm doing really good, thanks for asking AC!!
Katie 8753
You are talking about moral.
In prison there are other rules and other moral concept than outside prison. I have never been to jail so this is just something I have read about. But consider what Charlie must have seen or experienced after over sixty years inside prison. That must have shaped his mind considerable. If you wan´t to survive in that kind of enviroment you can´t afford to feel pity for one death. You must take care of youself because no one care about if you live or die inside prison.
No I don´t feel sorry for him.
But I am convinced that he is not guilty to conspiracy to murder.
Wasn't Tex's girlfriend Rosina really Deana Martin (Dean Martin's daughter)? Didn't Angela Lansbury give written permission for her underage daughter to hang out with the Manson Family (before the murders)? I think a lot of Hollywood people knew Manson than are willing to admit.
V717, I'm sure that Charlie's life in prison shaped what he is now. I have no doubt about that. I can't imagine spending that much time in prison, so I don't even know how that feels.
You have to ask yourself why? Why did he spend most of his life in prison? Well, the answer to that is...he took the easy way out. Every time. When he was released from prison and had a wife and child, he had a chance to get out and get a job, support his family, be a good man. But he chose not to.
Those are choices we make in life. And he chose the "easy road". Stealing and pimping. So back to prison he goes.
So his imprisonment was his fault for the most part.
>>>Carol said: Wasn't Tex's girlfriend Rosina really Deana Martin (Dean Martin's daughter)?>>>
No Carol, I know that Deana met Tex at a party, but the rest is inflated.
>>Didn't Angela Lansbury give written permission for her underage daughter to hang out with the Manson Family (before the murders)?>>>
Yes Angela Lansbury did give her daughter Diedre written permission to hang with Manson, as she was a minor. I think Angela was sick of raising her and was ready to be done with her. A common ailment in the 60's because teens were getting too hard to control.
Diedre didn't stay long enough to be involved in murder. She wised up.
>>>I think a lot of Hollywood people knew Manson than are willing to admit.>>>
I think there were probably a lot of people who might have "bumped into" him, but as far as being "good friends", I really doubt it. These people for the most part didn't need Charlie supplying them with drugs or dames. They could get them without him. And that was his biggest draw on the younger naive set.
I will agree with one point V717 made:
I don't think life-long criminals are "effected", by death and violence... the same way, as the average citizen.
Those guys experience violence and death frequently...
Bottom line here is, I think, that Charles Manson could have made something of his life, especially when he was released in 1967.
He was interested in music. He could have contacted music companies and tried to make his way into the music business. Or he could have gotten a real job recapping tires or waiting tables until something came thru.
But he chose to gather young girls who had either been outcast by their families or were just plain bored with life, and be a nomad, filling people's minds with "religious rhethoric" that he'd picked up in prison. He knew what people wanted to hear, and he said it to them.
He was basically a pimp again, I guess he never wanted to rise above that. I guess it was a familiar and friendly "occupation".
Anyway, Charlie's final incarceration was his own fault. He thought a lot more of himself than he should have. It's too bad he didn't become a productive member of society. Maybe he could have really gone somewhere with his music. And maybe 9 people wouldn't have died for no reason.
Thanks, katie, for clearing up my Rosina question. I had read on another site that she was definitely Deana.
Carol, Deana was a witness at the TLB trials. She was sickened that she had even met Tex at a party. She almost had to be sedated to testify.
Given her father's ties to Sinatra, I'm surprised that heads didn't roll. HA HA HA.
Well I'm off to bed. We'll talk tomorrow. :)
AC I jest. You should be no more offended than Marlin should- as I have respect for the both of you...
I wont call Charlie and old goat anymore :)
and I dont really wanna visit jail-
they have the wrong kind of bars there...
The Pattys drove right up to the gate at Corcoran one time. Not sure what we were looking for, a gift shop maybe? Anywhoo we got to the little kiosk and this huge guard steps out. Patty says "Oops, I think I'd better turn around." The guard says, "Uh huh."
LOL.. Patty :)
Its probably like all those who go to Spahn- And like I will as well..
What are we expecting to see???
but still we go and look
as different as we all are...
something draws us
>>>Patty said: The Pattys drove right up to the gate at Corcoran one time. Not sure what we were looking for, a gift shop maybe? Anywhoo we got to the little kiosk and this huge guard steps out. Patty says "Oops, I think I'd better turn around." The guard says, "Uh huh.">>>
HA HA. That's probably a good idea. If I was going to vacation in the beautiful state of California, I'm sure stopping at any prison would definitely not be on my list. :)
Although...it might be interesting to talk to Pat. But if she's not going to talk about what happened in 1969....what else do we have to talk about???
LOL
ACFisherAldag said...>>>>
Don't forget that Bobby had been burned for hundreds of dollars in drugs. Some scary people were coming after him, with the intent of gaining their money or hurting him. That's the motive. Doesn't make it right, but that's why Hinman was killed. Selling dope is a risky business.<<<<
Agree that selling drugs is a risky business, but what you say about motive may or may not be true.
It's also possible that a paranoid Charlie, thinking he'd shot and killed a scary black panther, needed money to get away, and thought Gary had some...
Why did Mary Brunner and Susan go with Bobby to Gary's house?
A Gift Shop... LMAO!!!
"I'll take two of the Charles Manson Dolls.. and a key chain".
AHahahaha
"Oh, and throw-in a couple snickers... we've been out all day"! AHahaha
Hi Marliese!
I do think that Charlie wanted Gary's money. And I do think it was to escape from what he thought was going to be really bad for him if he didn't.
But I really don't know why Gary was killed. Except for what Bobby said: he thought Gary might go to the police. Which, if you stop and think about it, doesn't make much sense. Getting in trouble for holding someone hostage and roughing them up is a lot better than getting in trouble for murder.
I don't see how killing Gary made Bobby or Charlie any better off. It seems like it just made things worse.
I'm not sure why Mary & Sadie went to Gary's. Should we just call this a "botched home invasion"? :)
"Actually, can I get the purple one... it matches my bag better".
Ahahahaha
Counting her change:
"So, is Charlie really in there"? LOLOL
Guard:
"No Mam, it's a chocolate factory". LOLOL
Many members of the family dealt drugs- including Charlie...
if it is justification to murder people because they are involved in drug trade...
then if one of the other guys at Crowe's house had a gun, and shot back and killed charlie- would that be o.k.????
If Crowe had sent an army of friends to the ranch and shot every memeber of the family who ever sold or bought drugs...
would that have been o.k.???
cause some people think it is less of a crime to kill Gary if he sold drugs...
He should have known better as a drug dealer than to let people he knew and had helped often into his home..
these people who betrayed him and tortured him never would have done those horrible things, or been capable of such things at all...
if only Gary wasn't a drug dealer..
Sigh....
Lynyrd, LMAO!!!
"I'll take a lid of the "Charlie Chronic" and....oh yeah, a Charlie Cupie Doll. You know, the one with the swastika on it."
HA HA HA.
CarolMR said...
Thanks, katie, for clearing up my Rosina question. I had read on another site that she was definitely Deana.
Hi Carol,
In her book about life with her father, Deana Martin talks about her friendship with Terry Melcher and meeting Charlie and Tex at Cielo Drive when Terry was living there.
bobby said...>>>>
So Marlin say's that Charlie told him the victim's (tates) were his friends, he knew them & it was a botched home invasion.
That would make it the same basic scenario as Gary Hinman & Bernard Crowe.
If you can't steal from & kill your friends. Who can ya. lol.<<<<<
Hi Bobby! Good to see you.
Yeah, really...what are friends for.
LOL.
St. Circumstance said>>>if only Gary wasn't a drug dealer..
Sigh....>>>
Hi St. Circumstance, didn't quote all of your great post, just wanted to to say i liked it... :)
Standing in line last night in the grocery store...saw the tabs with George and Cindy Anthony kissing dolphins in the Bahamas...! Had to smile knowing it was true they were really there. :)
Hi Katie...you always make so much sense.
Marliese- I am always happy if I can contribute to making you smile :)
Thanks as always for such kind words
Marliese I was thinking that when Deana Martin testified at the trial that she was shown a picture of Tex and she didn't recognize him because it was a picture of him from high school.
I think Bugliosi was trying to show how Tex went from an "ordinary Joe" to a drug-riddled baby killer.
Do you remember that?
I found this excerpt from Deana Martin's autobiography...
"But at one point in Deana’s life, the Hollyood-bright circles in which she ran intercepted a darker one, and she encountered a more sinister sort of celebrity. Charles Manson and Deana met at a house party before he gained notoriety as the creepily charismatic leader of the murderous Manson Family. Back then, he was an aspiring musician, writing songs and courting a deal with Terry Melcher, an Apple Records producer whom Deana was dating. In her book, she writes that Manson played guitar at the party while she and a group of friends watched. She didn’t know Manson, but he recognized her. Giving her a silver ring off his own finger, he asked, “You’re Dean Martin’s daughter, aren’t you?” The story at its most chilling is best read from the pages of her book, but by the time the ordeal ended, Deana had learned that her brother, Dean Paul, was on the Manson Family’s hit list, and Deana might have been there as well. The police didn’t comment when she asked. She writes: “While Manson had given me the creeps, I’d never for one minute suspected that he could be guilty of such a heinous crime. It shook me to the core, to think that I could have been one of his targets.” The first of the Manson Family murders took place at the home where Deana had initially encountered Manson."
http://www.417mag.com/417-Magazine/February-2008/The-Princess-of-Cool/index.php?cp=1&si=0#artanc
will try to find more...but I thought the last line was very interesting...
Hi Bobby! Good to see you!
Charlie knew Gary, Crow & Shorty. But as I said before, I don't believe he knew the others. I know he didn't know Parent....unless he was also hanging around high schools. LOL.
He may have encountered the other Cielo Drive victims at some point...MAY have. But he wasn't good friends with them.
And I can't imagine that he knew the Labiancas. I've never seen any proof that he did. Just other people's opinions.
As I said before, your comments are usually very interesting, which invoke conversation. Which is good!! HA HA.
Hi Mary!!! Thanks for the excerpt!! That is very interesting!
Did Deana say she was dating Melcher? I thought he was with Candace Bergen during the "Charlie years". Or am I mis-reading something?
I didn't realize that Deana & Dean Paul were on the "hit list".
I do know that she was scared to death of Charlie and Tex after the murders and was very reluctant to testify at the trial.
Let us know if you find more!!! Thanks!
Hey Katie - I am a huge Dean Martin fan and would like to read her book just becuase of that...so I will go to the library and scour the actual book to see what she says...I had to place a hold on it at the library since it was already checked out...St, did you beat me to it???
Will let you know what it says when it comes in
Oh Mary...I LOVE Dean Martin!!! I used to watch his hour long variety show every week back in the 60's. I've downloaded all his songs. My favorite is "Not Enough Indians". HA HA.
I was also a big fan of Dino, Desi & Billy, which featured Dean Paul. He was soooo cute!!! I was so sad when he died. I think it just about did Dean in.
Bobby we LOVE your posts. You don't cause any trouble at all. You're very intuitive, sweet and soft-spoken!! :)
>>>Bobby said: Gee Katie, I was trying to develop a tougher blog image. lol.>>>
Well let's put it this way...you're macho on the inside, but not a trouble maker on the outside. HA HA.
Mary said...<<<<
Hey Katie - I am a huge Dean Martin fan and would like to read her book just becuase of that...so I will go to the library and scour the actual book to see what she says...I had to place a hold on it at the library since it was already checked out...St, did you beat me to it???
Will let you know what it says when it comes in <<<<
The one i have is "Memories are Made of This"...Dean Martin, through his daughter's eyes.
One thing that surprised me was hearing how difficult life had been for his older children...before they came to live with Jeanne and Dean and the younger kids.
She speaks lovingly of Dino, and kindly of Olivia Hussey and Dorothy Hamill. Katie, you're right...Dean never recovered from Dino's death.
Think i read somewhere that Olivia Hussey was represented by Rudy Altobelli and rented the Cielo house from him after she and Dino were divorced...not sure if that's ever been confirmed though. Would have been early to mid 70's.
She talks about dating Terry Melcher, no mention of Candace, and meeting Manson and Tex a few times 'at Terry's house' on Cielo. Another time she mentions seeing Manson, Tex and Squeaky at the house. She says Manson was using his friendship with Dennis Wilson to influence Terry about signing him.
She says Manson...looking like any other hippie from the Strip in those days, said you're Dean Martin's daughter, aren't you? and took off a little ring he was wearing and gave it to her, and that after the murders her father was furious she'd even met him, and worried for her safety.
katie8753 said...>>>>
I didn't realize that Deana & Dean Paul were on the "hit list". <<<<<
Katie, in the Memories book about her father, Deana says that after the murders, Dean received a scary letter threatening murder against 'certain members of our family' ...she says he turned it over to the FBI and that they didn't realize what it was all about until several months later when she was contacted by the police for questioning about knowing Manson...
Thanks Marliese! I'll have to see if I can find that book. Sounds interesting.
I never knew that Deana dated Terry Melcher. That's interesting. Must have been before he dated Candace.
That must have been so hard for witnesses in this trial to testify, knowing that their lives were being threatened. It was scary because so many of the family members weren't in jail. That made the prosecution's job even harder to get a conviction.
It's amazing that Bugliosi even got convictions on all of them!
katie8753 said...>>>>
I never knew that Deana dated Terry Melcher. That's interesting. Must have been before he dated Candace.<<<<<
Hi Katie, yeah, i don't get her time on being with Melcher either.
She also says that her older sister Claudia dated him first, that he was always around the Martin house, very cool and great looking. So that would have been before Candace.
She says "i was dating Terry Melcher" but maybe it was more like family friends hanging out...because of the timeline when its known he was living with Candace at Cielo.
Marliese I was doing some checking and trying to find out when Terry moved into Cielo Drive, and I came up with in 1966 he and Mark Lindsay moved to Cielo Drive. I can't for the life of me find out when Melcher started seeing Candace, but I'm pretty sure that Melcher was already living at Cielo Drive when Candace moved in.
Sooooo....if Deana was seeing Melcher at Cielo Drive and met Tex & Charlie, then I'm assuming it would have to be in the spring/summer of 1968, because I believe that's when the Family started living with Wilson and met Melcher. But...I'm thinking Melcher was seeing Candace then.
This is confusing! Was he two-timing them? Double dipping?? HA HA.
Maybe so! Or maybe it's more she had a crush on an older guy and confuses hanging around his house with 'dating Terry Melcher'. LOL! Ooops, i just won't mention Candace was sleeping with him while I was 'dating' him and met Charlie Manson at their house. :)
Kind of odd she doesn't even mention Candace. so I have no idea!
That is odd that she doesn't mention Candace.
Well, we know one thing. Hanging around with Melcher was probably the most dangerous thing she ever did. LOLOL.
Oh yeah, you said Olivia Hussey supposedly lived at Cielo Drive at some point in the 70's.
I was just remembering that Olivia Hussey was "supposedly" seeing Christopher Jones, right after Christopher Jones "supposedly" had an affair with Sharon Tate. Jones has been connected to Cielo Drive too.
Boy, I need a scorecard to keep all these people straight.
"Can't tell who the players are without a scorecard!!"
HA HA HA.
I read Ed Sanders' book many years ago,but I remember that he made a lot of claims of Charlie and Co. being very involved with specific Hollywood stars. Sanders didn't name names, though. He wrote these claims in the form of "blind items."
Hi Carol!!
I have no doubt that Charlie got around. He probably did meet a lot of stars, as well as musicians. But....you can schmooze all night, but never get close to anyone.
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that most of these Hollywood types that brushed shoulders with Manson didn't even recall it until they saw his name in the papers about the TLB murders. Then they cringed.
Carol...come join us on the current thread!!! :)
i think melcher was either cheating on bergen the whole time they were together or they had an open relationship. melcher, wilson, and jacobson had a formed a little club with the descriptive name of "the golden penetrators."
>>Beauders said: i think melcher was either cheating on bergen the whole time they were together or they had an open relationship. melcher, wilson, and jacobson had a formed a little club with the descriptive name of "the golden penetrators.">>>
That's VERY possible Beauders. LOL
Bikers are just the muscle, Lynyrd.
There are lots of organized crime outfits. Italians, Greeks, Asians, Jews, plain ol' white boys. Called syndicates, or gangs, or families, or whatever in their own languages. Or just outfits. Mafia is just the word for it in Italian. Or Cosa Nostra. Charles met some of their leadership in prison, of varying factions.
Then, as now, the various well-healed leaders of crime "gangs" used others for their enforcements. Then, as now, it was bike clubs. (Although now it's more Latino gangs.) Charles was a mechanic who serviced motorcycles, and he also had connections in prison, with people suitable to do enforcements against those who owed money to the large syndicates.
The person who was in control of this particular enforcement wasn't Italian. They were well involved with supplying Hollywood with its vices. Gambling, women, drugs.
You keep saying "drug burn", which is true of Frykowski. Not true of LaBianca. That was gambling. The gang doesn't care if you owe money for drugs or gambling or buying too much red licorice... it only cares you owe money.
So a guy comes to Charles and asks, "Do you know anyone can do this job?" And Watson is fairly jumping up and down, yelling, "Me! Me! I'll do it!"
Watson wanted membership in a bike club. He had pussied out at the dustup w/ the black pimp, and was aching to prove himself.
Hinman was an independent thing, between Bobby and Gary. Shea was an independent thing, between Shorty and Bruce. However, Frykowski, Seabring and LaBianca had the motivation of owing the wrong people money.
Charles worked at race tracks in Ohio and in Nevada.
Charles knew Polanski from filming. You know the type of sleazy movies that were being filmed at Spahn Ranch in the last days? Yeah.
Carol, yes to Langeberry's daughter, no to Deana Martin and Rosina being the same person, although Rosina was related to an actor.
Asked Marliese: "Why did Mary Brunner and Susan go with Bobby to Gary's house?"
And why did women come along on the raids at the Tate Polanski house, and to the LaBianca house?
Because Bobby and Tex were wimps. There is a code about not bringing women along on jobs. It puts the women in danger, and it is a surefire way to get caught!
>>>AC said: Charles knew Polanski from filming. You know the type of sleazy movies that were being filmed at Spahn Ranch in the last days? Yeah.>>>
Last days?? Polanksi was out of the country.
Post a Comment