Grab Bag! LOLNader, Pugh, Cults, Manson’s Mental Health and Anger, “Pigs“, Manipulation, Motive Theories, "Helter Skelter", "Pimping", "Stranger in a Strange Land"… a new member “8/9 Baby“… and Mary’s Back!
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288 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 288 of 288Adam Gorightly: The shadow over Santa Susana.
I have never read this book. Is it worth the read?
Lynn, I've not read that either so I don't know if it's any good or not.
V717, Bugliosi prosecuted Tex Watson differently for different reasons.
The defense was trying to get him off on an insanity plea. He had to prove that Watson was not only sane, but had enough of his senses to know at the time of the murders that they were wrong.
He did question Watson under oath at his trial about the Helter Skelter crap that Charlie was always talking about. And Tex admitted that Charlie talked about it all the time.
Tex also testified that Charlie told him to kill both nights, which he did.
Tex wasn't tried at the same time as Charlie, Pat, Susan & Horseteeth because he wasn't extradited from Texas in time, which wasn't in Bugliosi's hands.
So I'm not sure why you're saying it wasn't fair to Charlie.
bobby said...
It breaks my heart when i see young kids like these defend a Charlie manson or subscribe to skin head or nazi ideology. I cant imagine trying get through to them. I wouldnt have the patience. Bug tries to take them through some logical steps & they are having none of it.
Mr Poirot replies:
You can vividly see the Mansonites aversion to logic. Reason was not a part of their psyche. Only satiating their compulsions mattered. Bug was playing with them. The black ladies question was like a left hook in Sandy's jaw. Somehow that black lady got a punch in that stung Sandy. But Sandy gathered her obsessiveness and went back down into the rabbit hole.
Bobby said:Did he have anything do to with the death of Gary Hinman & Shorty Shea ?
Gary Hinman: It was Bobby Beausoleil that killed Gary Hinman. I don´t think Manson orded Bobby to kill Hinman.
Shorty Shea: Yes, I think he had something to do with it. To what extent I can´t say.
Katie 8753: I still think there is reason to belive that Susan Atkins and Abigail Folger had met each other before. And ackording to Adam Gorightly Tex Watson had visited Cielo Drive on several occasions before the murders.
Adam Gorightly writes: One day in july of 69 caretaker William Garretson witnessed Voityck Frykowski taking pictures of a nude lady in the swimming pool. Later, a cable TV repairman by the name of Villela came to the residence and stumbled upon some sort of nude love scene going on. Recently, former Family member Catherine Gypsy Share disclosed that she and Susan Atkins had visited the Polanski residence prior to the murders, both of them taking a dip in the swimmingpool. Recently, Terry Melcher has confirmed this swimmimgpool incident.
If there is anything true in Adam Gorightly´s statement that could explain why Susan Atkins waved and smiled to Abigail Folger, they had met before.
Lynn. Yes it´s worth reading. What is true or not I can´t say.
We are to some degree in a twilight zone here.
v717 said...
Bobby said:Did he have anything do to with the death of Gary Hinman & Shorty Shea ?
Gary Hinman: It was Bobby Beausoleil that killed Gary Hinman. I don´t think Manson orded Bobby to kill Hinman.
Shorty Shea: Yes, I think he had something to do with it. To what extent I can´t say.
Mr Poirot replies:
I can say!
Charlie slices Hinman's ear and face with a sword then told Bobby "you know what to do".
Charlie was present as Shea was beaten to death. He may even have got in a stab or swatted Shea as he was dying.
Charlie was the architech of both those murders.
What would you think if a guy came in youe house and slashed you up with a sword?
V717, I know that Charlie and Tex had both been at Cielo Drive before the Polanskis moved in. Charlie was there when Terry Melcher lived there, and Tex was there when Dean Moorehouse lived there.
Voytek may have filmed lots of nude ladies in the pool. I have no idea.
You say "Recently, Terry Melcher has confirmed this swimmimgpool incident." Terry Melcher died of cancer in 2004. That wasn't recently.
As to Sadie and Gypsy being there, that's just hearsay, and I won't comment on that, because it can't be proven.
I still say that none of the murderers knew the victims at Cielo Drive.
Tex & Charlie were there BEFORE the Polanskis moved in.
And yes, Charlie did stop by in March 1969 and saw Sharon Tate, but he didn't know her.
Mr. P.: as to Charlie's involvement in Hinman's and Shea's murders:
Charlie did slice Hinman's ear off and say "you know what to do".
Now whether that means he ordered murder or not...is up to interpretation.
Bobby says he conceived it as a murder request.
But...Bobby changes his story a lot. And Bobby is a liar. A big liar.
So....I think that Bobby just took it upon himself to kill Gary, as, in his own words....he might go to the police.
How stupid was that????
In the Shea murder, according to Clem, Charlie was an active participant in the murder of Shea, stabbing him multiple times and encouraging others to do so.
That's why...when people say Charlie never actually killed anyone....I bring up Shea.
Because I think he did actually cause Shea's death.
Charlie was watching at minimum as Shea was being stabbed and beaten to death. At most he was ten ft from the murder. Those were his thugs beating Shea.
As far as Hinman. Two guys came into his house. One stabbed him in the heart and one slashed his face with a sword. That means rhose two guys are the killers. Boil that cabbage down!
Mr. P., according to Clem, Charlie stabbed Shea too. Do you not believe that??? I do. Charlie was all "GET GO" about killing that "n*gg*r lover" according to Charlie.
According to Clem, Charlie was all "hot and heavy". HA HA.
Charlie boasted "I cut his head off".
gorightlys book is a collection of
all the theories and myths about the case.
hes also one of the coolest researchers out there.
his book is great for folks new to the case it'll save them from having to buy all the other books!
if you buy the book make sure you
get the 573 page version theres a shorter revised version also.
Katie 8753.And yes, Charlie did stop by in March 1969 and saw Sharon Tate, but he didn't know her.
In an iterview I think it was with Ronnie Reagan Charlie claimed that he had met Sharon Tate at a party before march 1969
But he never took any notice of her.
Linda Kasabian according to Sandra Good had also visited Cielo Drive before the murders.
I say these murders that took place on Cielo Drive wasn´t random killings. The perpetrators wasn´t in on some holy crusade to ignite a race war. It was presumably about Drugs, money and also prehaps revenge. Rumours say that Linda Kasabian had been burned on a drug deal by Voytek Frykowski. If that so then some of the victims and the perpetrators knew each other.
But with such a simple explanation to the crimes Vincent Bug never could have implicated Charles Manson in the crimes.
That is where Helter Skelter comes into the picture. A supernatural explanation that accounts these gruesome murders and paints Charlie as the mad Messiah who sents out his minions on a murder rampage to ignite Helter Skelter.
Helter Skelter was just one of Charlies mindgames nothing more nothing less. Charlies mindgames was not to interpret in any literal sense.
But Vincent bug jumped on the bandwagon and became both famous and rich.
Clever fellow.
V717 said:
"It was presumably about...", "Rumours say that..."
Well, there's the problem: presumptions amd rumors do not make a legal case, they aren't even useful for forming an opinion that holds water, in my view. My own presumption is that even in the sixties, those close to wealth and power had access to a better class of dealer than some flea-ridden, stinky hippie living in the dirt. There has never been a shortage of dealers in LA. i presume that sebring or tate would not have to troll the gutters for what they wanted, but what do i know? The hs shtick was supported by many witnesses, it was the case bugliosi could build - he said that himself in his book, in discussions with Aaron Stovitz (i think); he would gladly make a case for robbery instead, but the evidence wasn't there.
As for the fact that he got rich and famous; i'd say that's the American way - if you luck into the spotlight, make the most of it. How does that change anything? Was that his plan all along, and he just went for the bizarre and hard-to-prove premise because it would sell more books? I can't figure how its relevant, or how it impugns the credibility of the case.
I know it makes me envious, i want to be rich too!! Why won't someone publish my book, and let me opinionate on TV?! Oh right, i never finished writing it. Also, i'm a nobody. Sigh... (lol)
"Luck into" is the wrong way to put it in this instance; if you wind up in the spotlight, is what i mean.
Poirot said:
>>>>"You can vividly see the Mansonites aversion to logic. Reason was not a part of their psyche. Only satiating their compulsions mattered. Bug was playing with them. The black ladies question was like a left hook in Sandy's jaw. Somehow that black lady got a punch in that stung Sandy. But Sandy gathered her obsessiveness and went back down into the rabbit hole.<<<<
Well said.
Hey 8/9 Baby!
Hey lynyrd! :)
Mr poirot: i think ocd is a good way to describe the way the manson "kids" functioned after succumbing to charlie's mindf*ck. Those folks were literally tripped out of their heads, after hours and hours of time spent on acid listening to him prattle on and on with his acid-fueled mystical "teachings". Out of their heads, as in Literally absent mentally, an empty space in their heads with nothing but charlie's voice in a crazy tape loop, and repetitions of the behaviors that charlie reinforced. It seems that not treating charlie's words as gospel meant getting the crap kicked out of you, or facing some knife scene with charlie, or worse. Maybe an MD wouldn't diagnose it as OCD, but the outcome is the same: Mindless, compulsive repetition, in thought and behavior.
Sorry folks, but I've got to ask:
Is "Adam Gorightly" an alias?
I mean... is that really the dude's name? LOL
Speaking of mental illness, i was thinking about that in terms of motive. Motive is a tricky thing, because you can't ever know for certain why a person does a thing. Even if they tell you or others directly, they could be lying, or blind to their own motivations and lying to themselves. This is why evidence of guilt is the primary interest of the justice system, and matters of intent and motivation are relevant in terms of severity of the charges and mitigating-aggravating circumstances. But people like to know why, juries tend to demand a fully developed story, amd only the most clearcut evidence can overcome that tendency. If your intention is to win a criminal case, prosecution or defense, in the absence of definitive proof, you have to put it together.
But what if the case involves someone who is by his own admission psychotic? It becomes more complicated. Motive, to me, implies a through-line of consistent reasoning that leads a person to a choice or action. "consistent" being the key word here. I have two good friends, each diagnosed and treated for psychosis because of extreme behavior that put them in custody, One for doing what he called "the street-corner-shouter thing". Both are fairly high functioning now, but they still have the brain of a psychotic, and their behavior reflects it. Both of the are brilliant and creative. Unfortunately, you cannot count on them to remember what they said later, when the surge of mental energy is gone. Promises, plans, tearful pleas, angry tirades, inspired sermons. It doesn't matter how Much they meant it at the time.
Let me be clear, i start with the premise that manson is psychotic. From there, based on experience, i conclude that motive is a confusing and contentious issue in this case in large part because a psychotic's inner world is confused and self-contradicting. The motive here was generated from such a mind. the mind of a violent, predatory madman. Trying to sort that stuff out is like sifting through a bucket of snakes.
My opinion: Manson probably believed the helter skelter scenario some of the time, especially when they were all tripping balls and playacting at the ranch. There are several people who stated that charlie tried to lay that trip on them, with varying effectiveness. However, i'm sure that other times, if you brought it up he would not know what you were talking about. In my experience, with psychotics the true motive is usually pretty visceral, and the ideation is a cover for the emotion. In general, motive for them is an inconsistent and fragmentary thing at best.
As for bugliosi, whether he belived that hs was the "true" motive or not, i don't know. he obviously thought it would get him the convictions he wanted. He was right.
V717 said: "In an iterview I think it was with Ronnie Reagan Charlie claimed that he had met Sharon Tate at a party before march 1969"
---------------
Yeah right. Next we'll have his scraggly little ass at the Playboy Mansion, bringing those buxom chicks to "now".
Or maybe next rumor will be that he hung out at the Governor's mansion, laying his "rap" on the Gov.
Boy, that would have been handy.
"Hey Gov, I got me a little problem that I need your help on."
HA HA.
Hi 8/9 Baby.
I agree with you about Bugliosi becoming a millionaire and meant to post that earlier but got caught up on other stuff.
What's wrong with making some money if you can? As long as it's legal, who cares? Like you said, I wish I was rich, but then again, I didn't invest 12 hours a day for 9 months to get a conviction. I'd say he's earned every penny.
He prosecuted and WON one of the most difficult cases to ever get a conviction on. And not just that one, but the other trials involved in this case. Guilty every time.
LynyrdSkynyrdBand said...
Sorry folks, but I've got to ask:
Is "Adam Gorightly" an alias?
I mean... is that really the dude's name? LOL
Mr Poirot replies:
I think it was though I didnt look that up. I thought I remember seeing a picture of him at a book duscussion.
The editor/co-writer Guillermo Soledad of Watkins book was a pen name.
Hi katie, you crack me up!
katie8753 said:
"Yeah right. Next we'll have his scraggly little ass at the Playboy Mansion, bringing those buxom chicks to "now"."
LMAO!
Can't you just see it? The lost chapter in the Manson Family story: Charlie tries to horn in on Hef and the mansion, but then maybe Frank Sinatra showed up with his cronies and ran 'em off. Charlie vows revenge, and moves in with Dennis Wilson. It's why Frankie was on Crazy Sadie's "list", right? Plus it explains why the mob got involved; nobody messes with Sinatra, pally! LOL
8/9 Baby said: Can't you just see it? The lost chapter in the Manson Family story: Charlie tries to horn in on Hef and the mansion, but then maybe Frank Sinatra showed up with his cronies and ran 'em off. Charlie vows revenge, and moves in with Dennis Wilson. It's why Frankie was on Crazy Sadie's "list", right? Plus it explains why the mob got involved; nobody messes with Sinatra, pally! LOL
----------------
HA HA HA HA. Yeah weren't they gonna make Gucci bags out of Sinatra's skin or some shit? Hoo hoo. Boy that Sadie had some imagination!
You just don't mess with Frankie boy!! You might just have to "take a long walk off a short pier". HA HA.
The ramblings of Sadie where she was making threats about skinning Sinatra and burning Elizabeth Taylor's face are examples of the effects of Charlie's helter skelter ideology. The robots began thinking in violent terms because Charlie had programmed violence into their minds. The whole killing pigs thing was helter skelter. It wasn't something Bug made up. It is very well documented.
8/9 Baby said:
>>>>"i start with the premise that manson is psychotic. From there, based on experience, i conclude that motive is a confusing and contentious issue in this case in large part because a psychotic's inner world is confused and self-contradicting. The motive here was generated from such a mind. the mind of a violent, predatory
madman. Trying to sort that stuff out is like sifting through a bucket of snakes".<<<<
Brilliant Post Baby!
Baby said:"i start with the premise that manson is psychotic".
As the old nursery rhyme/song goes... a very good place to start!
We come from the same "school of thought"... literally.
I've worked in the mental health field for 21 years, and, I agree totally, that many folks suffering with these issues are truly "blind to their own motivations", as you stated so eloquently.
If you believe Manson was mentally-ill, and consequently "blind to his own motivations" (at least in-part, or some of the time)... it follows that... Bugliosi had an uphill battle defining motive... because analyzing the mindset, actions and motivations, of a mentally-ill person, can be (and usually is) like trying to make sense of the senseless.
The mindset is often conflicting and in-consistent.
To Baby:
Add a healthy does of mind-altering drugs (to Manson, and his listeners), and you've got some tenuous communication, and about 100 more snakes. LOL
As for your proposal that Manson sometimes believed HS... and other times didn't:
It's entirely possible, but not a concept I'm sold on.
Lynyrd said:
If you believe Manson was mentally-ill, and consequently "blind to his own motivations" (at least in-part, or some of the time)... it follows that... Bugliosi had an uphill battle defining motive... because analyzing the mindset, actions and motivations, of a mentally-ill person, can be (and usually is) like trying to make sense of the senseless.
The mindset is often conflicting and in-consistent.
Mr Poirot replies:
Summer 67 Manson wasn't insane. But in fall and winter 1968 he had begun to go severely bonkers. It is in that one year period that his mental state began to decline steadily and rapidly from bad reactions to LSD. The Manson of 67 was not the same Manson of 69. By 69 he had become the full fledged psychopathic asshole that he remains till this day.
Anger/bitterness, self-gratification and preservation....
Manson's Big motivators.
Think about it folks....
lynyrd you've just described a con-man.
not a hippie who cares about others, thats why i don't see him sticking around after hinman to help get beausoleil out.
there had to be something in it for him and it was'nt love of brother.
btw i don't know if thats adams real name!
either way hes a good guy.
mattprokes said...
lynyrd you've just described a con-man.
not a hippie who cares about others, thats why i don't see him sticking around after hinman to help get beausoleil out.
there had to be something in it for him and it was'nt love of brother.
Mr Poirot replies:
Read "Manson In His Own Words". Charlie specifically stated why he didn't leave. Manson was most certainly strongly attached to his Family.
mr p- i've read that selfserving book and i just don't buy into most of what was said in it about tl or his whole woe is me look at what the world did to me view of his own life
i don't think manson cared about anyone but himself.
thats just my opinion though
it reminded me of that book o.j.
put out a few years back....
nothing was his fault either.
does anyone else who was there at the time besides sandy good think that he really loved them and would have laid down his life for them?
i'd be willing to bet that most felt he used them for whatever he could get and curse the day they met him.
again thats just my opinion and yours is as valid as anyones but
the nuel emmons book ain't going to convince me that he was a great guy who was sh#t on by the world.
let me revise that last statement.
the emmons book BY ITSELF isn't going to convince me.
Matt said: lynyrd you've just described a con-man.
not a hippie who cares about others, thats why i don't see him sticking around after hinman to help get beausoleil out.
there had to be something in it for him and it was'nt love of brother."
-----------------
That's right Matt. Charlie was/still is only in it for himself.
The motive for these murders did not include any caring for getting Bobby, Mary or Sandy out of jail. They were just collateral damage.
8/9 baby and others tend to think that Manson is psychotic.
That´s wrong. He is not. Where to begin?
Charles Manson belongs to a special group of people that indeed are rare and few throughout the history. This group of people have through the course of evolution (whatever the underlying force behind that phenomena is – “development” is actually a better word) changed on the surface so to say but the underlying “power” and the “patterns” have remained unchanged through the (probable) millennia. 100 000 years ago we needed physical force and endurance to survive in a harsh environment that forced mankind to develop extreme features. Of some unknown reason nature added to our existence a great brain and mind – maybe “compensating” us for a psychical weakness compared to for example the Neanderthals who where more psychically fit to survive in a harsh environment. This added feature to us, Homo Sapiens, is assumed by many modern researchers to be the reason why we survived and why the other human species did not (some assume as much as 10 human species quite close in time to our own in the past).
There have always been humans capable of extraordinary things. In the far past they where skilled soldiers. The mythological Achilles is one example proving himself to be impossible to defeat by any standard means of fighting… only vulnerable by unconventional or “tricky” ways of defeating an opponent… the believed arrow through the famous “Achilee’s heel” in his case. These soldiers are in some cases described as standing alone – swearing alliance to no one except family and close friends. Fighting for reasons that lies in their nature or if forced to do so.
During our development things have changed dramatically – WE have in a large degree changed our own reality and surroundings. The forces that are over or under us have responded. The modern man is defined largely by the statement I think therefore I am. As we left the savannah, built cities and walls, more sophisticated surroundings and cultures… the need for brute physical force became less needed. But the underlying force, the core-force, remained. After a few drinks of alcohol or a few doses of some powerful substance we are back in the past no matter how “civilized” we thought we were before that.
Lets think about this concept – “I think therefore I am”. IF there is an ongoing strong development in the human race since its beginning and to this day. HOW would we evolve in today’s world? HOW would a future human look like? Well, here appearances are very deceiving as the THOUGHT that defines us are what matters from a strict logical perspective. The definition of a future human being is therefore “I think MORE – therefore I am”. Do you begin to understand the idea? Einstein, Tesla… great thinkers in “technical ways” but limited to their areas of expertise. What if someone would be able to think more or even perhaps better in ways we never expected? The terms never explored, invented or written down… the psychology never understood by the outdated Freud the future but perhaps present and past state of mind that some few have and had, still do, and will have. It is not likely to see some strange “X-man” running around with claws on his hands… what would it serve him in today’s world? It wouldn’t. Then what would? The answers you seek lies in the person I am writing about. The definition of such an extreme type of human is from a logical perspective “I think EVEN MORE – therefore I am”.
The original powers in human beings most likely “transformed” from mostly extreme psychical features to extreme mental features as we (or something else) changed the environment from a very “simple” one to a very very complex one. The few that owned some particularly extreme powers in the past are still few but they are still here today.
Poirot said:
>>>>"Summer 67 Manson wasn't insane. But in fall and winter 1968 he had begun to go severely bonkers. It is in that one year period that his mental state began to decline steadily and rapidly from bad reactions to LSD. The Manson of 67 was not the same Manson of 69. By 69 he had become the full fledged psychopathic asshole that he remains till this day".<<<<
Poirot, I agree, that Manson was healthier mentally in 1966-67, than 1969-70.
Like I said previously... the "family" lifestyle, deteriorated Manson, just as Manson deteriorated the group.
(Likely not in equal proportions, but worthy of note).
From a "sociology" stand-point, the individual effects the group, and the group effects the individual... and folks behave differently in groups.
Yeah... he was healthier in earlier years.
BUT... I submit, that he always had "issues".
It's not like he was completely mentally healthy, and then suddenly "went insane".
People do sometimes "go insane" for various reasons (post-trama, etc), but, I don't believe, in Manson's case, he was ever completely "sound".
I also believe, that his mother had mental health issues that went un-addressed, and sadly "self-medicated" with alcohol.
MatP said:
>>>>"does anyone else who was there at the time besides sandy good think that he really loved them and would have laid down his life for them"?<<<<
I've often pondered:
If Lynn and Sandy were incarcerated for life, and Manson was completely free... how long would Manson "pine-away" for them???
He'd probably visit them in jail once or twice, and then forget them, like yesterday's newspaper.
MattP said:
>>>>"let me revise that last statement.
the emmons book BY ITSELF isn't going to convince me".<<<<
I've been told, that the Emmons book, was actually written by an inmate, by the nick-name "pin cushion".
I have no idea if that's true, or not.
"Pin Cushion", I think, because he was stabbed, like 1000 times or something. LOLOL
>>V717 said: Charles Manson belongs to a special group of people that indeed are rare and few throughout the history.>>>>
On behalf of most of the planet, may I say a resounding "whhheeewww"!
>>>This added feature to us, Homo Sapiens, is assumed by many modern researchers to be the reason why we survived and why the other human species did not (some assume as much as 10 human species quite close in time to our own in the past).>>>
Really, and what are those 10 human species? And don't say Vulcans. Doesn't count. HA HA.
>>>There have always been humans capable of extraordinary things. In the far past they where skilled soldiers. The mythological Achilles is one example proving himself to be impossible to defeat by any standard means of fighting… only vulnerable by unconventional or “tricky” ways of defeating an opponent… the believed arrow through the famous “Achilee’s heel” in his case.>>>
V717, mythology is not real. These were Gods that the Romans, Greeks and Norsemen made up to make them feel better.
>>>The original powers in human beings most likely “transformed” from mostly extreme psychical features to extreme mental features as we (or something else) changed the environment from a very “simple” one to a very very complex one. The few that owned some particularly extreme powers in the past are still few but they are still here today.>>>
Are you comparing Charlie to Wolverine???
Well, I have to say that Wolverine is much cuter. And definitely taller. HA HA.
Hey did you see Plan 9 From Outer Space? That's another good one. That might explain a lot more to you. Check it out.
V717 said:
>>>>"There have always been humans capable of extraordinary things. [Break]... Einstein, Tesla… great thinkers in “technical ways” but limited to their areas of expertise. What if someone would be able to think more or even perhaps better in ways we never expected"?<<<<
Here's the reason why I've never considered Manson extraordinary:
Manson is VERY adept, at pointing-out other people's faults.
He can hit all the government's, and society's, short-comings, with pin-point accuracy.
He'll tell you at length, and great detail, everything that's being done wrong environmentally.
Politics, greed, consumerism... the list is endless.
BUT... he never offers any solutions.
A truly enlightened person, such as Ghandi or Einstein, formulates a plan, and exacts positive, measurable change.
They offer solutions, and work towards those ends.
Charlie is impressive... but, at the end of the day... if you don't offer solutions... you're essentailly just "belly-aching".
I'd rather see an individual choose one goal... such as curing cancer... or, decreasing our dependency on fossil fuels... and succeed... than simply belly-ache regarding 500 issues... and accomplish nothing.
Manson could have gone through 20 years of college and "really offered society something".
Instead... the world has more string tarantulas and scorpions... and several music albums recorded over a telephone.
I have no beef with Manson... but, sometimes you have to look at things from a point of reality.
V717...
Manson is interesting... he's entertaining... he's insightful in some areas... he's funny as a bastard... in his younger days, he was a better-than-average musician, and quite a fertile songwriter.
On a personal level... he's got some very likable qualities.
If I was in prison, I'd rather have Manson as my cell-mate, than most other criminals, I'm sure.
"Cellmate-wsie"... you could do a LOT worse, than a 5 foot 2, aging hippie in prison!
And, with any luck, he'd get his guitar back... and Star would stop-in for a visit.
But V717... you're "elevating" Manson to something beyond reality... just as the media, "de-elevated" him, in the other direction.
Somewhere between the media's bullshit... and the "Einstein" bullshit... is the truth.
Manson is a MAN... and in 5-10 years, he's gonna die, like every other man.
V717... you're simply elevating Manson to extremes, that are not realistic.
Manson is no more a "Genius", than he is the "Devil", or a "Bogeyman".
Hear hear Lynyrd. I agree with you about Manson. He has lived his whole life being a leech upon society.
V717, I don't know where you're getting your information, but you need to listen to the voice of reason.
So you think Charlie is intelligent beyond measure? Then why didn't he use that intelligence to even get a high school degree? Like Lynyrd said, he could have used that intelligence to better the world. Talk about all the environmental issues that Charlie is supposed to be so involved in. Has he offered one solution to the problem, developed one theory that might help integrate one alternative to our current usage of fuel, offered any suggestions to prevent global warming, save the environment, save marine life, save plant life, save human life???
No...Mr. Charlie's solution to helping the environment is "killing 1,000,000 people".
Now that's a solution.
I'm sorry V717, but your hero has feet of clay. He hasn't done anything in his whole life but murder, bellyache, steal, pimp, abuse, and make the world a worse place because he was ever in it.
V717, how can you compare Charles Manson to Einstein? Now I'm gettin' mad.
Did Einstein ever cut off someone's ear??? GET OUTTA HERE.
Charles Manson isn't able to lick Einstein's bootstraps.
I don't think Charles Manson could even tie his shoes. That's why they wore moccasins and went barefoot so he wouldn't have to be embarrased....again!!
Charles Manson was a fucking bully. If you, V717, were in his vagabond tribe, he would kick your teeth down your throat if you didn't agree with his bullshit.
He raped young girls, savagely beat the girls if they disobeyed (a man that would hit a woman isn't a man!!!) and finally ordered the killings of 9 people (that we know of) that didn't deserve it, all because he was pissed off because he wasn't a "rock star".
FUCK HIM!!!
I don't believe I ever used the word "leech" (lol)... but, whatever....
V717:
Your ideas are not unfamiliar to me, as odd as they seem. I have encountered this idea of the "exyraordinary individual" in a few places, Neitzche not the least of them. The idea that a very small percentage of human beings are fundamentally different in a way that gives them "gifts" is currently embraced by a few groups that actively seek out such people for cultivation. This is fringe stuff, but if you look for it there's info.
Charlie would not rate. He would be considered one of the failures, who couldn't navigate the Abyss and lost his mind. It's a pitfall for those who seek along that path. Charlie is a fool, a poor custodian of whatever power he might have had. One the primary guidelines these people offer is to avoid putting yourself at the mercy of the authorities. The police and justice system can deprive you of your property, your liberty, your life - if you put yourself in their sights. Charlie could not stay out of jail, and never seemed to be very smart about any crime he committed or the company he kept. As many others have pointed out on this blog, When he was on trial, he couldn't keep from playing into bugliosi's hands,
I do wonder if Charlie has these kind of "occult" ambitions. A lot of his rants suggest he does, and it seems he manages to sell people on the idea a lot. There is no denying his strange magnetism, even in recent photos. But in my view, he is a sad example of occult ambition outstripping ego strength. A failed apotheosis, with catastrophic results.
Lynyrd, Charlie is a leech. He sucks the blood off young women (and young men) who are stupid enough to do his bidding, and he still does!!!!!
He's leeching off this Star, and a myriad of other young people who think for some reason that he is a superhuman who came to save the earth.
Kinda like ET gone psycho.
Charles Manson is, like I said, a little boy who never grew up. He still wants his "mama". A Peter Pan.
And he can't have that, so he still derides anyone who ever did.
Anyone who had parents was/is his intended victim. He proselytized that "parents are evil". That's why he sold that to his dupes, because he didn't have "parents".
And that's not the world's fault.
LOSER DELUXE!!!
Katie 8753 and Lynyrd Skynyrd´s.
Let´s take this thing to a "simple equation." All Manson is saying is that we have lost contact with our roots, where we came from. We must go back to basic.
The modern times that we lives in today is in opposite to the enviroment where we came from. We were not originally made to live in such comfortable enviroments that we enjoy today.
Manson want´s to go back to those days in the past. He is a super enviromentalist.
Manson has very strong mental powers but his also very primitive.
He needs to be that because otherwise he wold loose control over himself. There must always be a balance in nature.
If you put Manson in an primitive tribe let´s say somewhere in South America the villagers would immediately understand what kind of person Manson is. They would have appointed him to the tribes Shaman. Yes he is a Shaman. But in todays modern society we have lost knowledge of such things. That is why we classify Manson as psychotic.
In the end it´s not so complicated. It´s really quite simple.
According to some, Charlie wants out, for some reason.
I can't imagine why.
He would have to either live off some idiot (Star and her other man) or live off the government, which he's been doing his whole life!!! HA HA.
He can't manage for himself, so he'd have to live in a senior citizen home unless he mooched off his followers.
I can just see it. HA HA. In a retirement home:
"Come to now....oh, what did that mean anyway....Does anyone have a new diaper???
"Hey someone creepy crawled my room. My pill box is now on the left side of my clock."
"B-17, BINGO!!
No Charlie, you didn't win, Mrs. Swartz won.
SHE'S CHEATING. I WIN THE $1 FOR BINGO! WHERE'S MY CANDYBAR!!!"
"Charlie we can't have the Hitler Channel on all the time. Everyone sleeps through it."
HA HA HA.
"V717 said: If you put Manson in an primitive tribe let´s say somewhere in South America the villagers would immediately understand what kind of person Manson is. They would have appointed him to the tribes Shaman. Yes he is a Shaman. But in todays modern society we have lost knowledge of such things. That is why we classify Manson as psychotic.
In the end it´s not so complicated. It´s really quite simple.>>>
Darlin', I don't know if you're a girl or a boy. But I think you're young.
And as such, are sucked in by any Tom, Dick & Harry that flies about.
You honed in on Manson for some reason.
If Manson was so very well received in South America, why didn't he land there, instead of Sunny Southern California??? He never tried to move there before his ass was arrested.
Why don't you ask your mentor that?
Hoooo-wah!!!
Ask him....I'm waiting for your answer!!!
You are aware, that Jim Jones established his new cult in Jonestown, in South America.
He moved from nothern California because of the wave of resistance to South America.
There he killed 909 inhabitants of Jonestown, 303 of them children, died of apparent cyanide poisoning, mostly in and around a pavilion.
909 people. He was the GOD back then. Now Charlie's the God, according to you.
Jim Jomes was a lot more of a GOD than Charlie.
Why don't you follow Jim Jones??
If you want to follow a cult leader that killed people, just follow Hitler.
Now that dude killed folks.
He killed over 6,000,000. and counting.
If you want a murdering folk hero, why not follow Hitler?
Manson was a worm. He will soon be worm's meat.
And they will squirm and scrunch til they reach that brain you keep talking about. And they will have a worm's feast!!! HA HA.
Not every cult ends in murder. And some occassionally become religions.
If CM got out, he would be able to support himself. Undoubtably would get a movie and book deal and do the celeb tour of talk shows.
>>>Shak El said: If CM got out, he would be able to support himself. Undoubtably would get a movie and book deal and do the celeb tour of talk shows.>>
Are you outta you're fucking mind??? If Charlie got any money if would go to Frykowski's pole dancing daugher.
Which would be ironic.
Are you kidding???
PLEASE don't bore me.
Marliese, where are you? I hope you're not gone.
I miss you.
That judgement is so old it can easily be overturned by bankrupcy and/or settled. Any lawyer who can get CM out could get that judgement dealt with one way or another.
I wonder why no one went after Linda's money when she had been included in that civil judgement?
And can Katie lay off the personal insults?
Okay I'm going to bed. I'm tard.
Mattprokes said:
again thats just my opinion and yours is as valid as anyones but
the nuel emmons book ain't going to convince me
Mr Poirot replies:
I didn't give you mu opinion. I told you what Charlie said to a guy he served time with. The book is not self serving. Manson did not write it.
To say that Manson was not emotionally tied to his Family? That is opinion.
mr p-do you believe what manson told emmons?
sounds to me like you do.
maybe i'm crazy but that would qualify as an opinion.
and the book is called manson in his own words if i'm not wrong so unless the whole book is a sham its charlies side of the story and to me it comes across as bs
so tell me do you believe what manson said in the book or are you just telling me what he said?
what IS your opinion on it?
Katie, sometimes you take things too far.
There's no need to get nasty, and insult people... especially folks who aren't even participating here (i.e., Star in this case).
This is just a discussion.
Let me explain something to you.
It's very difficult to change people's minds.
But, if you remain sensible... construct sound points... and invest a whole lot of time... you just might influence the thinking of someone like V717, who has a different perspective.
When you get nasty... it sends people packing... but does zero, to influence their thinking, convince them you're right, or exact any change.
If you're REALLY passionate about somthing... it would make much more sense, to invest the time and effort, to actually convince someone to alter their view.
It's very hard, and requires much time and effort, but, it can be done.
Lambasting folks accomplishes nothing... and moreover, doesn't prove to them, that you're right.
They don't leave, believeing that you are right... they just leave thinking less of you, AND your opinion.
Sorry to say it... but, it's true.
"The message, is only as effective as the messenger".
Think about it...
V717 said:
>>>>"If you put Manson in an primitive tribe let´s say somewhere in South America the villagers would immediately understand what kind of person Manson is".<<<<
V717... read your own sentence about 12 times, and then consider what I am going to say.
It may be very, very, true, that Manson would function MUCH better in a primitive tribe.
BUT... he wasn't existing in a primitive tribe or culture.
He was existing in a modern culture.
It's a hypothetical point, which is moot.
Think about it this way V717:
Assume you got in an automobile right now... and crashed... and ended-up completely paralyzed, feeding from a tube, and wearing diapers.
Then... your friend walked into your hospital room, and said:
"Ya know V717... if you simply walked to the store, you wouldn't be injured right now".
It's a 100% true statement.
Your friend, is absolutely right.
BUT... what's the value?
It's already over, and done.
You've already driven the car... and you're already completely fucked-up!
It may be TRUE, that Manson would fare better in a different place, and a different time... but, what's the point???
Can we turn back the clock, and re-birth Manson in medieval times... where he'd have a better go at it?
Heck... he'd probably ROCK during the days of wenches, swords and guillotines.
But... what is the point in fantasizing?
Manson lived in the USA, during the 1900's... period.
V717:
EVERY MAN must fend for himself, and fare as best he can, given the circustances he finds himself in... that's every man.
I can think of 100 environments I'D rather be in... but, what's the point?
Being able to accept your circumstances as a man... and making the best of it, are part of maturity and competence.
Heck... every man on the planet, can name 12 places they'd be better off!
My Dad used to say:
"Sometimes, I wish I was on a slow boat to China"! LMAO
But, he wasn't... he was a firefighter, in New England.
Time to grow-up V717.
Manson is just a man... like any other man.
We all have our strengths and faults, and put our pants on, one leg at a time.
If you idolize any man... you're be-littling yourself.
What's that quote you made on another site Shak El?
"Folks are only great, when others are on their knees"??
It was something like that.
It applies here.
Get off your god-damn knees V717!
Manson is just a man... like any other man.
I may be completely full of shit on everything I've ever said, regarding this case.
But, you can take that one to the bank.
Be a man... and don't make any other man into a hero.
No one's better than you... remember that!
We're all flawed.
AND V717... no man needs a freakin' "Shaman".
You've got all the wisdom you need within yourself.
In the end my brother... we ALL have to formulate OUR OWN answers, and fend for ourselves EVERY DAY.
My grandfather used to say:
"Every man carries his own bag"
... and that's the God's-honest truth.
Find a new hobby V717... invest in yourself!
Invest in yourself every second V717... 'cuz believe me... Manson made his own bed... he's taking care of his own business... and he's not even thinking of you.
Believe me... he's not
A litle "fatherly" advice from the Lynster!
Peace!
V717:
Manson's life is winding to a close, and he played his cards the wrong way.
Don't waste time trying to learn something from Manson.
Lead a life, such that, a man like Manson, can learn something from YOU!
Katie...
I removed your post, because once again... you insulted a person who doesn't even blog here.
Please address the folks who actually blog here only.
It's a reasonable expectation... thanks.
I'm sure V717 already has a degree.
The wisdom I'm discussing above, is not taught in schools... and is not measured by commercial success.
Time for Bed.
Peace...
Lynyrd aid: I'm sure V717 already has a degree.
The wisdom I'm discussing above, is not taught in schools... and is not measured by commercial success.
Time for Bed.>>>>
Good! What is his degree in???
pin cushion was roger smith, manson's best friend in prison. he died from cancer. manson referred to him as "the best of the worst.
in the hendrickson book ronnie howard claims virginia graham made up the bit about the hollywood hitlist. now who do we believe?
mattprokes said...
mr p-do you believe what manson told emmons?
sounds to me like you do.
maybe i'm crazy but that would qualify as an opinion.
and the book is called manson in his own words if i'm not wrong so unless the whole book is a sham its charlies side of the story and to me it comes across as bs
so tell me do you believe what manson said in the book or are you just telling me what he said?
what IS your opinion on it?
Mr Poirot replies:
After you've read a dozen or so books on the case; some of then 4 or 6 times you should be able to see that there are many lies and truths. If you can corroborate something by the testimony of multiple people then truth is most likely evident.
When the Emmons book came out even Squeaky said there was a lot of truth in it. Manson himself says the book is basically true. I learned a lot in Emmon's book. Did you learn nothing in that entire book at all? Was it all lies to you? If it was then you are not assimilating data that you have amassed from other books which can reveal what is and isn't true in the many the books on the Manson case.
I can read any book on any subject and find inaccuracies and lies. Should I just stop reading books entirely? Is that what you have done?
I deleted my virulent comments. They were self serving and without worth.
I just wish Charlie had been executed years ago. He's still leading young people down the wrong path.
Proof that he should never be released.
mr p-if manson AND squeaky said its true then true it must be
with two unbiased sources like that i guess i should believe that manson was forced into tl by this horrible world.
c'mon man who said stop reading books?
i've read the same books you have and i've come to a different conclusion about what i believe.
what i learned from the emmons book is that charles manson blames the world for what he did and doesnt accept responsibility you think differently and thats fine
but it doesnt change what i think.
we can agree to disagree on this point or keep trying to change each others minds but i think we both know that thats not going to happen on either side.
its up to you i guess
Matt in Emmon's book Charlie talks at length about his bond with the others in the Family but you can get a feel for his emotional bond with the others in many places. You're saying Charlie had no bond and that is not believable. Even since the murders I've watched videos where it was stunningly obvious he was bonded to the Family. I watched one video where they showed Charlie a tape of Patricia Krenwinkle now. Charlie was overcome with emotion for a short time. It was blatantly obvious that Krenwinkle was a soulmate. I don't need a book to tell me my mother loved my father. I dont need a book to see emotional bonds. The Family was devoted to one another to an extreme degree. It was them vs the world.
Probably not worth mentioning... but this is the interview, where Lynn discusses her opinion of the Emmons book:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-fJGxTfeqI
Her opinion starts at 25 seconds in, and ends at 1 min., 30 seconds.
Mixed messages as usual. LOL
That is vintage Squeaky. She was flipping out about the book before she read it. Then she read it. She says Manson had not read the book yet Ive seen him and Emmons in an interview where Charlie says the book is true while holding the book in his hand with Emmons sitting across from him. Emmons is not a Charlie apologist. Charlie told Emmons he went back to Cielo after the murders. There's a lot of negative stuff about Charlie in the book. Charlie does not come off well in the book. Emmons painted an accurate picture. I just wish the book was longer.
LynyrdSkynyrdBand said:
"V717:
Manson's life is winding to a close, and he played his cards the wrong way.
Don't waste time trying to learn something from Manson.
Lead a life, such that, a man like Manson, can learn something from YOU!"
Right on, right on, right on.
Well said. I much appreciate your posts to V717, Lynyrd. Your approach works for me.
Lynyrd Skynyrdband
Please understand I have no problems with Manson. I can read him. But any roll model no,no.But I can tell you one thing, Manson isn´t psychotic in any way.
The problem is that you and others assume that he is. That´s why he is being misinterpret.
And 8/9 baby. You talked about Nietzsche. Yes you are on the right track. But in case Manson there are some things that are a little bir different.
Hi V717.
I believe Manson has mental health issues.
I wouldn't be so bold, as to diagnose him as psychotic, specifically.
I did "second" 8/9 Baby's comment though... so, I can see where you would assume that.
I just meant, that the situation is exascerbated (sp?), when mental illness is involved... which is essentially what 8/9 baby said.
Mental illness is a huge umbrella, including many things.
If I came across, that I believed Manson was psychotic specifically... I apolgize.
My experience with Manson, is not extensive enough, to start offering definitive diagnosis. LOLOL
Keep in mind... I try to read every comment on the blog, and respond to as many as I can.
Sometimes details get lost in the process, due to the sheer volume, and time constraints.
I'm barely following the exchange between Poirot and MP right now... I just don't have the time.
I believe the "cruxt" of what 8/9 baby said, is accurate.
As for diagnosing Manson specifically as psychotic... you'd need a hands-on team, to get to the bottom of that guy! LOL
I dont feel CM is ruining certain young people who contact him; those folks would probable be on their own road to ruin. Instead, they get a simple philosophy of environmentalism based on individual action from CM. Sure it might be better if they would join the Greeen Party or Earth First!. However, these folks would not run across such groups in their daily lives but somehow thinks it Kewl to contact CM. There is no evidence that CM has used these folks he teaches ATWA that he has sent them out to commit any violence.
Why the hate katie? The world changes and moves on. Wishing folks to die is bit pathological don't ya think?
Hi Shak El.
I think it all boils-down to the degree, with which, someone is "immersed" in a subject.
I don't think folks communicating with Manson... chatting with him about the environment once in a while... or being "fascinated" by him... is particulalrly "dangerous", or anything like that.
Heck... I'm fascinated by the man myself... which is quite obvious.
I'd love the opportunity to meet Manson face-to-face, before he dies.
I think it'd be quite an experience.
But... when that fascination gets overb-blown, to the point where, communicating with Manson, admiring him... and even adoring the man, starts to supercede other ambitons of daily life... then, it's unhealthy.
I mean c'mon Shak El... even you must know, there's some folks who take this stuff over-board.
There's a guy on another site, who calls Manson "The Soul", or something like that.
A very nice guy actually... but c'mon, that's a little bizarre.
These folks would be better-off to dote on their own children that way!
We all have friends... that's normal and healthy.
If someone wants to "be-friend" Manson, that's cool with me.
He has a right to have friends... and folks have a right to "be-friend" him.
BUT... when folks start to believe he's more than a friend (like any other)... or more than a man (like any other)... it's gone too far... and it's not healthy, or productive to the individual.
AND... if Manson was really their friend... he'd tell them that!
Like any other pursuit in life... anything to excess is not ideal.
My thoughts on Manson personally?
I have no beef with Manson.
He's serving his jail time, according to the justice system, we have elected.
When he dies... I wish him the best in the after-life... whatever he believes that to be.
I believe, that after death... all slates are cleaned between society and him... and after that... it's between him and God (again, whatever he deems that to be).
I wish him the best in the here-after.
As for now... given all the variables collectively... I believe he's right where he belongs.
Ad yes... I do have some sympathy for him.
He had a tough up-bringing, and he does suffer from mental illness.
I hate to see anyone killed... or anyone rot-away in prison forever.
There are no winners here.
A wasted life, is nothing I take pleasure in.
Any one of us could write a book on Manson... but, that's my thoughts on him... and his present-day followers... in an all-too-small nutshell.
Oh... one last thing.
If someone does want to over-indulge themselves in devotion to Manson (beyond normal friendship)... that's their business, not mine.
It really doesn't bother me in the least.
Excess has it's own price.
>>>Shak El said: Why the hate katie? The world changes and moves on. Wishing folks to die is bit pathological don't ya think?>>>
Hi Shak El.
I don't think Charles Manson serves any purpose at all.
As we've discussed, he could have utilized his time studying, getting a degree and making this world a better place.
Instead, he just keeps leading impressionable young people to the River Styx by singing the same old song, year after year, like a broken record.
If he had been executed years ago, that wouldn't be possible, and these young people would be saved, at least from him. They might try to follow some other fanatic, I don't know.
I don't mean anything against you. :) Glad you post!
Hi, all...a couple of thoughts:
Adam GoRightly is definitely a pseudonym. And I don't know what all he has done to earn some of the admiration around here, except write a poorly written - kitchen sink-throw everything up at the wall and see what sticks - kind of book.
Examples: He writes the girls went to the POLANSKI residence for a swim, and this is confirmed by MELCHER. WTF does that mean? Melcher would have only been there when he lived there, not the Polanskis...and when did he recently confirm this to Mr. GoRightly?
And then we get that Linda Kasabian had been to Cielo Drive before. How do we know? Sandy tells us. For crissakes, I don't thaink I'd believe a word of what that bat shit crazy broad has to say. Plus it only fits into her blaming LK and not CM for what happened.
once again gorightly collected all the theories from other sources and put them into one book.
none of them are his ideas or research as far as i know.i don't think he endorses any of them, hes just putting them out there so they're all in one place for easy
reference.
i'm pretty sure i'm the only one around here whos been giving him any love and the reason for that is based on my contact with him
on his old mansonmythos website
hes a nice guy...simple as that.
katie8753 said...
Marliese, where are you? I hope you're not gone.
I miss you.
Hi Katie, my youngest son had surgery tues so i haven't been on line much the last few days. Quick click on 'newest' and your post caught my eye...I sincerely appreciate what you said. :) Thank you. You're the best and i think you have a great and clear relationship with truth.
Hi Marliese.
Here's wishing your son a speedy recovery!
Marliese,
Katie has been away visiting with relatives... she'll be back tomorrow (friday) late afternoon/evening (depending on your time zone)...
I miss the rapscallion! LOL
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