This is some very interesting footage. Manson explains Bernard Crowe and Gary Hinman's murder in his own words.
You've gotta tolerate some foolish footage from a cheesy movie inter-spersed, but if you focus on Manson, it's very interesting.
43 comments:
The movie is "My name is Leslie and My name is evil"
Its Canadian and I have a copy lol- they renamed it for U.S,. distribution...
The video is new to me however- and really fascinating...
I have never heard him personally talk about any of these events in so much detail..
Very good stuff L/S :)
Saint Circumstance
Hello Gentlemen.
I'm sure the three of us, have all watched many hours of footage.
As soon as I watched this piece... I realised this interview had much more "meat on it's bones", than most others.
It's obvious, you both recognized that as well.
Personally, I've never seen Manson talk so candidly, and frankly... with seemingly no sensationalism, or interruptions.
I really believe he's telling the truth here, as he percieves the truth to be.
He's being honest from his perspective.
If you interview several folks regarding a car accident, or fight they witnessed (or were part of), several years after the fact... they'll all have a slightly different story.
But... I honestly believe, this is Manson relating the truth, honestly, as he personally remembers the events.
Thanks a million for the background information Circumstance!
That's why I love having you around... you know your stuff!
... and other reasons as well, of course.
What I'd really love to know... is where the rest of this interview, with Manson in the yellow jumpsuit is?
Anyone know who the interviewer is?
Where and when this was shot?
I'd love to watch the rest of this interview!
Thanks gentlemen for your great comments.
Peace..... Lynyrd
The Bernard Crowe portion, is accurate for sure.
Tex was the one who got himself in trouble with Crowe.
Crowe (from what I read) made a phone call, and asked for Charles/Charlie... and Manson was given the phone.
Crowe was actually referring to Charles "Tex" Watson.
I don't know how true the "phone-call story" is...
But irregardless, Tex definitely is the one who had troubles with Crowe, and Manson went on Tex's behalf to straighten things.
Manson ended-up shooting Crowe, in what seemed predominantly self-defense (from what I've read anyway).
Hi Bob.
Yeah... according to Manson, Bobby was trying to keep Hinman from reporting Manson (for slicing his ear, with the sword).
Entirely possible.
It actually seems to make a lot of sense.
Maybe Bobby didn't want that version perpetuated... as Bobby always tried to distance himself from Manson and the Family, as much as possible.
Bobby always acted as though, he was never truly a "Family member".
I think Bobby was smart enough to realise, that being closely tied to "The Family" would only hurt his chances of innocense initially... and parole therefter.
Bobby didn't want to be perceived, as being THAT loyal to Manson, as to kill Hinman on Manson's behalf.
Probably why Bobby lied... assuming Manson's story is accurate.
Manson's story actually makes more sense.
Avoiding the police, would likely be the most pressing thought, in a sitaution like that.
I should really watch this footage again.
There's a lot there, in a condensed time.
Manson mentions that Melcher made promises to a lot of people, that he didn't keep.
That's interesting, that Manson would feel the necessity to mention that.
As the years pass... I slowly see Manson in more amd more, of a positive light.
Manson's definition of morality and truth... stem from a prison code of ethics.
Amongst criminals, and in the context of crime, he's probably the most loyal and trustworthy guy around.
'Course, avoiding drug transactions, theft... and all the other things that lead to violence, would be the smartest, and most ethical in the truest sense.
Manson is basically an "honest criminal"... if that (contradiction in terms) makes any sense to anybody.
I think Manson believed he was "doing right" by his brothers, and avoiding his own culpability... even "sticking his neck out" at times... for some.
(Again... if that makes any sense) LOL
In a sense, I suppose he did.
Bob asked:
"Lynryrd, do you know much about that tj wallerman that was with manson when he shot crow ? I saw him on jeroldo with anson 13 , bill nelson. His story wasa that manson was a real hero saving the damsel in distrees. He seems like he was close to Charlie but i dont see anything written by him ? or videos?"
TJ Wallerman...
Sorry Bob, that one is beyond my knowledge base.
Katie and Circumstance are really amazing with details like that.
Maybe they can help you.
Anyone?
If I come across anything Bob, I'll post it.
Peace... Lynyrd
Hi guys. I watched this video with Manson talking as well.
Yes the movie looks REAL cheesey. HA HA.
Lynyrd I agree that Manson remembers things "according to Manson".
He said a couple of things that didn't make sense. Maybe more...he talks to fast I have to listen fast, which means I need to hear it probably 2 more times.
He said that Hinman sold some bad drugs that killed Bobby's wife.
I didn't know Bobby had a wife then. Never heard any of that.
He also said that the "gun" at Hinman's house belonged to Hinman. I thought bobby had the buntline, used in the Cielo Drive murders.
I'm going to listen to it again and see if I've got this right.
Hi St. Circumstance. Hope you stick around..."said". HA HA.
Bobby the only thing I know about TJ Wallerman was that he accompanied Manson to Crowe's apartment to "rescue the girl".
Manson was pretty put out at Tex's antics, and that he was having to get involved.
Manson told TJ that he was going to stick the buntline in the back of his pants, then when they got there, and Charlie was "jiving" with Crowe, to pull the gun out of his pants and shoot Crowe.
But TJ froze and couldn't do it, so Manson did it instead.
Then he ordered one of the guys standing there to give him the buckskin clothing, that he was wearing on the Spahn Ranch raid in August 1969. LOL.
I'll say one thing about Manson. He doesn't seem to have any fear at all. About anything or anyone.
Katie said>>>
"Manson told TJ that he was going to stick the buntline in the back of his pants, then when they got there, and Charlie was "jiving" with Crowe, to pull the gun out of his pants and shoot Crowe.
But TJ froze and couldn't do it, so Manson did it instead".
Oh... that's right.
It's all coming back to me now. LOL
TJ is the guy that was supposed to pull the gun from the back of Manson's pants.
Pretty cool plan actually!
I can see Manson holding his hands up, chatting with Crowe, like he's clearly empty-handed, and un-armed.
And BAM!
TJ, whips the gun from nowhere and as Squeaky says... SHOOTS! LOLOL
Seriously, only a criminal would come up with something that ingenius.
Manson also tells Bobby in the video, to slap Hinman across the face first, to distract him, before pulling the gun.
He must have had a lot of experience with out-smarting people! LOL
>>>Bobby said: He said that Hinman sold some bad drugs that killed Bobby's wife.- He said Bobbies wifes baby- misscarriege i assume.>>
Bobby you're right. He said it caused her to lose her baby.
But he didn't have a wife. Not that I know of. Don't know who he's talking about.
>>>Lynyrd said: Oh... that's right.
It's all coming back to me now. LOL
TJ is the guy that was supposed to pull the gun from the back of Manson's pants.
Pretty cool plan actually!
I can see Manson holding his hands up, chatting with Crowe, like he's clearly empty-handed, and un-armed.
And BAM!
TJ, whips the gun from nowhere and as Squeaky says... SHOOTS! LOLOL>>>
Yeah that was the plan, but T.J. couldn't go thru with it. Left Manson no choice but to do "what a man's gotta do". HA HA.
>>>Seriously, only a criminal would come up with something that ingenius.
Manson also tells Bobby in the video, to slap Hinman across the face first, to distract him, before pulling the gun.
He must have had a lot of experience with out-smarting people! LOL>>>
You're right Lynyrd, Manson learned from the bottom up how to distract and overcome.
I actually learned those same tactics when I was young in a rough neighborhood. LOL.
Katie said>>>>
"I actually learned those same tactics when I was young in a rough neighborhood. LOL".
I believe it!
I've seen you in action! LOLOL
Lynyrd said: Katie said>>>>
"I actually learned those same tactics when I was young in a rough neighborhood. LOL".
I believe it!
I've seen you in action! LOLOL >>>
HA HA HA HA HA HA. You crack me up!!
Katie
Hinman didn't own a gun.
The gun used at the scene
was actually Bruce Davis's
gun. Bobby borrowed it from
Bruce. Bruce mentions in his
hearings that it is his gun.
I don't think this is the same
gun used at Cielo however.
Bobby was not married. I think
your talking about his common
law wife Gail. Yes he did have
a child with her. No miscarriage.
and as far as I know the child is
still living.
Wallerman split the same night as the Crowe shooting- as soon ss Charlie went behind bars he returned to the ranch- in fact - he is sitting next to Mary rubbing her hands with a crazy looking grin on his face while she is being interviewed in the Hendrick documentary..
in his book on his website- Tex mentions that TJ was a really nice guy and his favorite guy at the ranch ( not the he is a character reference by any means)
I got the impression from the limited stuff I read- that TJ was really around for the girls and the drugs, and really didnt have it inside him to do much violence...
-
St. circumstance
I'm almost positive Gary
wasn't a mescaline dealer.
I'm quoting Bobby here in
a letter he sent me.
"Far too much has been made
of the "drug dealer" factor
Gary sold some amounts of pot
and ocassionally organic
psychedlics to pad his piano
income. All of this just circumstantially played into
the events that led up to the tragedy and his untimely death."
yes I am pretty sure the biker
theory is just made up to distance
himself from Manson.
Hi "Molly 67"!
Welcome to the Blog!!
Molly said>>>>
"Hinman didn't own a gun.
The gun used at the scene
was actually Bruce Davis's
gun. Bobby borrowed it from
Bruce".
Sounds familiar.
I thought Bruce drove out there, dropped-off the gun and split. No?
That's seems to be what I remember.
Saint...
Is TJ Wallerman the guy in the Hendrickson film, with the big black beard, primarily bauld-headed.. sitting on the floor with the others... looking like he's completely blasted out of his mind? LOLOL
His eyes are totally "glazed over", almost drooling on himself?
Looks kinda older than the rest...
I think there's only one bearded dude in the film other than maybe Clem... so, I'm assuming you know who I'm referring to.
Molly...
If drugs weren't the primary motive, the next logical question is... why were they there?
I'm not dis-agreeing with you... but, there's got to be a motive.
Let's assume for a moment Manson is completely dead-on in this interview:
Manson explains that Bobby killed Hinman... to keep Hinman from reporting the ear incident, thus sending Manson back to prison.
So... Bobby was being a loyal friend... as it were.
BUT... why were Manson, Bobby (et,al) there in the first place, slicing ears and what-not... if not involving a drug burn?
Is there more to Katie's "inheritance" theory?
Yes L/S- that is exactly who I am talking about- lol can't confuse that crazy looking smile with anyone else- even in that group...
He looks scarier than any of them- but by all acounts i have read- he never did any violence at all, and in fact was afraid of Charlie himself after the Crowe incident..
Gary was probably the type of drug dealer that my friends are- they do not solicit strangers much- but make a few extra dollars selling to friends who would get it elsewhere- and in the process saved himself a few bucks...
If he were a regular dealer- in the couple of days they held him- wouldn't at least a few people have stopped by???
I do think they thought he had money- but not really sure if they thought it was from inheritance or drugs- I have heard both...
Bobby sounds the most reasonable today to me of all of them, and I think he knows that... I think he always had the habit of saying whatever he thought put himself in the best light... He has the most potential of giving us some real insight and truth into what really went down, and maybe one more 5 year denial- and he finally releases the book he has been promising...
When Bobby finally gets the sense he is not going anywhere- we may finally get something close to truth regarding what he knows firsthand...
In the meantime- its anyone's guess why they went there- like everything else in this case- there are 4 or 5 stories- even the people involved have different versions...
St. C
Hi guys. St. why don't you just sign in with your name and avatar and then you won't have to keep explaining who you are. HA HA.
I don't think Bobby killed Gary to save Manson, I think he did it to save himself.
The reason Bobby & the girls were at Hinman's was to get money. Now if it involved a drug burn, that depends on who you're listening to I guess.
Gypsy has said in past interviews (and I know she's not the pillar of truth) that Charlie was desperate to get to the desert. He thought he had killed Crowe and was paranoid that the black panthers were going to come to the ranch and kill him.
In order to get to the desert, Charlie needed money fast.
Charlie wanted Hinman's money. I personally don't think Hinman had any money.
Good 'ole baby-killing Tex states that Charlie told him to "go to the house where Melcher used to live, kill everyone there, and get as much money as you can. We need $800. If you don't get that much at that house, keep going from house to house until you get $800".
But we all know Tex is a liar, soo.......
O.K. Katie- Good idea
>>>St. Circumstance said: O.K. Katie- Good idea>>>
YYYYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAA. Welcome back!!
Thanks- but it is very warm here, so let me adjust the pic for the season lol....
There- now I am back lol
Lynyrd
Personally I know one of
Gary's relatives. And he told
me that Gary wasn't killed
due to a drug debt. It
was for inheritance money.
He is very credible to
me. I believe him. Also
Bruce Davis states the same
thing in a letter he writes.
He states Gary wasn't a drug
dealer and that he was killed
for inheritance money. When
he didn't give them the money
the decision was made to kill
Gary. yes I also believe it
was planned ahead of time.
Hi Molly. Welcome aboard.
>>>Molly said: Bobby was not married. I think
your talking about his common
law wife Gail. Yes he did have
a child with her. No miscarriage.
and as far as I know the child is
still living.>>>
I know Bobby wasn't married. I was just saying that's what Charlie said on the video on this thread.
I'm not sure who Charlie was talking about, since he mentioned miscarriage.
>>>Katie Hinman didn't own a gun.
The gun used at the scene
was actually Bruce Davis's
gun. Bobby borrowed it from
Bruce. Bruce mentions in his
hearings that it is his gun.
I don't think this is the same
gun used at Cielo however.>>>
I know the gun belonged to someone in the family. I was thinking it was the buntline used in the Cielo Drive murders and also to shoot Crowe. But I could be wrong on that one.
>>>Personally I know one of
Gary's relatives. And he told
me that Gary wasn't killed
due to a drug debt. It
was for inheritance money.
He is very credible to
me. I believe him. Also
Bruce Davis states the same
thing in a letter he writes.
He states Gary wasn't a drug
dealer and that he was killed
for inheritance money. When
he didn't give them the money
the decision was made to kill
Gary.>>>
Molly I had heard that too, that Charlie thought Gary had inherited quite a bit of money, and told Bobby to go get it.
>>>yes I also believe it
was planned ahead of time.>>>
You believed what was planned ahead of time? The murder of Hinman??
>>>St. Circumstance said: Thanks- but it is very warm here, so let me adjust the pic for the season lol....
There- now I am back lol>>>
Welcome back dear friend. You look very cheery in your summer duds. HA HA.
Bobby thanks for posting that link. Quite informative!!
Hi Bob,
Thank You for locating the 3-part series.
I really enjoyed watching it.
Until the last half of the thrid section, Manson was down-right lucid.
I wish there were more productive interviews with Manson.
Usually Manson is interrupted so frequently by the interviewer, it goes nowhere.
I think most interviewers are desperate for shock value, and consequently, don't allow Manson to finish a thought.
Thanks Again!
Hi Molly,
If you say the motive was inheritance, you'll get no argument from me.
Drugs or inheritance...
it equals money either way.
The bottom line was money.
Hinman doesn't strike me to be the serious "drug dealer" type.
The guy probably sold pot, and acid... and acid wasn't even illegal back then was it?
Also... as Circumstance pointed-out:
Wouldn't a serious drug dealer have a lot more visitors?
...or, at least a few visitors over a couple days?
It evidently wasn't a very large-scale, lucrative business, if there were no visitors.
It's very possible, they were there for inheritance money... and after Manson cut his ear... Bobby killed Hinman, for fear he'd tell the police. (as Manson said)
In the end, your theory holds as much water as any...
As Circumstance also said:
"its anyone's guess why they went there- like everything else in this case- there are 4 or 5 stories- even the people involved have different versions"...
Inheritance certainly paints Hinman in a better light... and Hinman was by most accounts a decent guy.
Thanks for your input Molly.
Hi Circumstance...
Yeah, TJ stood-out even amongst that group.
He looks down-right demented.
I'm not surprised in the least to learn he wasn't violent though.
I seriously think he'd be hard-pressed to even stand-up! LOL
It's amazing that CM devised such an elabprate rouge, with the gun hidden... and he chose that guy, to literally "have his back".
TJ looks like the type of criminal who would fall asleep in the get-away car! LOL
If I was Manson, I think I would've chosen someone a bit more coherent! LOL
L/S- alot of stuff I read said that TJ was Charlies right hand man for awhile in many things. He was with him when they moved stuff from the Gresham house, and he is mentioned as being one of Charlies early sidekicks often...
It may have been that he trusted TJ first, and after he chickened out- then subsequently fled- he moved onto others?? Maybe when Bobby was not an option, and TJ turned out to be unreliable- ( Watkins was split by now) Tex and Bruce became the next best options??
Circumstance said>>>
"L/S- alot of stuff I read said that TJ was Charlies right hand man for awhile in many things. He was with him when they moved stuff from the Gresham house, and he is mentioned as being one of Charlies early sidekicks often"...
Saint, if you say so... I'll take your word as fact.
You always bring great facts to the table... and I have no reason to doubt you regarding TJ.
Truth be told... I know little-to-nothing about TJ, and was just clowning.
Saint said>>>>
"It may have been that he trusted TJ first, and after he chickened out- then subsequently fled- he moved onto others?? Maybe when Bobby was not an option, and TJ turned out to be unreliable- ( Watkins was split by now) Tex and Bruce became the next best option"s??
Sounds like very sound logic to me.
Bob... unfortuantely your address link to the TJ footage got cut-off... and doesn't work.
Sometimes on the longer adderess links, you gotta hit "enter" and split a portion to the next line, to get it all in.
Bummer...
I really wanted to watch that video.
Hi Bobby. I still can't get that link.
Don't know what's going on???
I'd like to see it.
Is it on You Tube?
Bobby did you mean this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVlFQQUyV2E
Here's another freak of nature that thinks Charlie is "innocent". HA HA.
http://wn.com/Ansom13
Flowers in her hair...Flowers everywhere....I love the flower girl...Oh I don't don't know just why...she simply caught my eye.
HA HA.
I found it Bob, doing the search you suggested.
I haven't had a chance to watch it yet... but, I will soon!
Everyone:
Paste this into your main browser (not the YouTube search), but your main browser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVlFQQUyV2E
Cool footage Bob! Thanks!
The latter part of the 3rd clip, when TJ explains the Crowe shooting, is the best part.
Molly - interesting stuff, I always wondered about Gail - Bug mentions her as "Gail Beausoleil" without further info...also, first time I heard about Bobby having another child..anymore info on that?
Katie,
I think You're right. The
gun used at Crowe and Cielo
was the same gun. The one
used at Gary's was Bruce Davis's.
Kimchi,
Bobby mentions in an interview
a few years back that when he
gets arrested for Hinman. He was
on his way to visit his pregnant
girlfriend. I think he
has other kids, but never talks
about them.
The only reason I think Hinman
was planned is that Bruce Davis
states this in his letter to the
parole board. He says Hinman was
planned. Whether that is actually
true or not I'm not sure, but he
does tell the parole board that.
I spoken with Bruce in a few
letters and I am just saying he
seems alot more truthful to me
than Manson. No I don't believe
Bugliosi's race war motive it
just doesn't make sense.
Hi Molly.
According to Ed Sanders, the gun used on Hinman was a 9mm owned by Bruce Davis.
You're right.
>>>The only reason I think Hinman
was planned is that Bruce Davis
states this in his letter to the
parole board. He says Hinman was
planned. Whether that is actually
true or not I'm not sure, but he
does tell the parole board that.>>>
Molly I really don't think Hinman was planned. At least, not the murder.
At least, not by Bobby. And I really don't think it was planned by Charlie either.
Charlie wanted money. He thought Gary had some. He told Bobby to get it.
I don't think at that point that anyone thought about killing Gary. I think they just wanted the money.
Bobby says many times, that things went too far when Charlie cut his ear off.
He was afraid that Gary would go to the police and he would be arrested.
I know Bobby killed Gary.
And I don't think that Bruce or Charlie had anything to do with that.
I think that was a decision Bobby made, probably in haste, but nonetheless, his decision.
>>>I spoken with Bruce in a few
letters and I am just saying he
seems alot more truthful to me
than Manson. >>>
I don't think Bruce is any more truthful than Charlie or Tex. I think Bobby is a lot more truthful, although none of them reveal the entire truth.
>>>No I don't believe
Bugliosi's race war motive it
just doesn't make sense.>>>
The "race war" was a screen that Charlie put up for his followers to do his bidding.
It was a bunch of nonsense to keep them in control.
So...no there wasn't a "helter skelter" really going on. Charlie just wanted the family to think that, so they would do his bidding.
It was all about money.
Money to get to the desert.
Charlie was paranoid, and needed to get to the desert. He needed money for that.
Hence...Gary Hinman. He thought he had money.
To answer the Tj question, he was an member of the family from the end 1967 but came and went. Once the idealogy of Manson switched from peace and love to murder he hauled ass and didn't associate much with the family until later on during the trials. After the familys convictions he and BO his wife came back into the folds of what was left of the family and stayed a active family member until his death I think in 2005 from a auto accident, he was trying to pass another car on a curve in Topango canyoun and hit another car head on.
Tj used to be in the army.
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