Saturday, June 22, 2024

Was Charlie at Cielo the night before?


A number of sources do suggest that very thing:

Death to Pigs, by Hendrickson pg501

Bugliosi interview by Merrick, 12-15-71

Bugliosi: "I'm the one that put Manson inside the gates of the Tate residence. I put him in there, not on the night of the murders, but a couple of nights earlier."

Manson's Right Hand Man Speaks Out by Charles "Tex" Watson c. 2012 pg43

It's believed that Manson was at the house looking for Terry the night before the murders and was offended by the new occupants.

www.mansonblog.com/2016/07/does-hour-or-three-make-difference.html

Grimtraveller said... "Back in 2005 on Col Scott's site, someone called GLH said that he'd spoken with Tex the month before and this is what Tex had told him "Manson had been to Cielo the night BEFORE the murders". I debated that with him, saying I'd heard that Manson had been there in March '69. He stood firm on his claim that Manson was there on August 7th (in the evening). ...and Manson was agitated the next day"

www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/manson-family-murder-victims-friend-posits-alternative-motive-1227729/amp/?fbclid=IwAR2zLJptusNrnAdAqMpYBbHFVS_PzcjA9J_985vXOOltgXVMPOxNcGDaNyU

Jay Sebring’s business partner Jim Markham:

"I believe Manson had gone up to the house” — Polanski was away shooting a movie — “and Manson wanted to sell cocaine and marijuana,” he says. “He showed Jay and Wojciech the product. They were going to buy some of it, but the two of them beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them].”

 truthontatelabianca.com/threads/true-detective-1970.2881/

Beausoleil: "He(Charlie) had been over near his [Melcher's] house and, as he said, he checked out the wires, telephone wires and the electric gates and exits from that property."

=======================================

Wait...  wasn't Charlie down in San Diego County on that date, bringing Stephanie Schram down to her sister's house in Jamul and having dinner there, and then sleeping on the lawn of the residence of one of Stephanie's friends?  Well, that is what Bugliosi claimed.  But what was that based on? 

Not Charlie.  He admitted going down to Jamul but didn't put a date on it.  

Not Schram.  She couldn't remember the date:

Helter Skelter, pg368

"Stephanie was a bit vague when it came to dates. She "thought" the day they returned to Spahn Ranch was Friday, August 8, but she wasn't sure."

Not that traffic ticket Charlie got from the Highway Patrol near Oceanside on the way down.  It's never been made public.

Not Stephanie Schram's sister, identified only as "Mrs. Hartman," who allegedly claimed that Charlie told her that "people were going to be slaughtered, they'll be lying on their lawns dead."    Her interview was never released.

Not Stephanie's 'friends' in San Diego on whose lawn Manson and Schram allegedly slept on, the night of Aug 7 to the morning of Aug 8.   There's no evidence they were ever identified.

=====================================

Though of course Schram never said anything about Charlie stopping by Cielo Dr. in the time she was with him, from her meeting him near Esalen to when they allegedly returned to Spahn, "arriving there about two in the afternoon" on Aug 8, in Bugliosi's version.  

But Schram claimed it was Aug 5 when she first came to Spahn with Charlie.  They had dinner there, and then in the evening drove off the ranch, but only for a couple of blocks before Charlie pulled over and they slept in the bakery truck that night.  The next day, which would have been Aug 6 if Schram is right, they drove down to San Diego, spent the night, returning to Los Angeles on what would have been Aug 7.  Note that during his trial Tex claimed he saw Charlie at Spahn the next morning, on Aug 8.  There are now enough gaps in the timeline to make a trip to Cielo the night before very possible.

So why didn't Bugliosi use evidence of this alleged visit by Charlie up to Cielo the night before, at the trial?  It would have been very incriminating to Charlie, whether the visit was to do a drug deal with Voytek, as per Markham, or to do a reconnaissance, as per Beausoleil.   The only realistic scenario is that Bugliosi could not have entered this evidence without revealing the source, which might refer to the house being under surveillance before the murders, as Doris Tate claimed.

Submitted by Starviego. Thank You Starviego.

Monday, August 7, 2023

Conspiracy to Incite Violence

A man stands accused of inspiring, inciting, prompting (insert your word of choice) his followers to act, and their actions lead to violence and death. The accused man is not physically present during the violence, but he is arrested based upon his alleged influence over the perpetrators.

Does this sound familiar?

As I listen to the proceedings against Donald Trump, I'm struck by the parallels with Manson's case.

And Manson, as we know, helped to convict himself by virtue of his enormous ego, arrogance, and disdain for the court system. That seems to be another notable parallel. Could history repeat itself?

Both cases were national news and will span months.

This is obviously a gross oversimplification of the two cases, but there are similarities.

In my humble opinion, when the date for "transfer of power" arrived, Trump should have conceded defeat graciously. I think it was okay for Trump to challenge the election results up to that point, but if he couldn't prove election fraud before the "transfer of power" date, it should have been "game over". That should have been his deadline to admit defeat. 

Even if Trump was still convinced that there WAS election fraud, at that point, the peaceful transfer of power supersedes all else (for the good of the nation). At that point, the time for challenging the results had expired.

Do I think Trump belongs in prison over this situation? 

I think Trump exercised poor judgement. I think Trump is an extremist. His use of "social media" is unprofessional and detrimental to himself, and arguably others. But as of now, I don't think he belongs in jail. He probably belongs on a psychiatrist's couch, but not jail. (In his mind, I think he truly believed that the election had been stolen. That of course, is subjective speculation on my part). I say "as of now", because the legal proceedings have just begun, and I have no idea what further evidence the prosecution will submit. In short, I'm presuming Trump is innocent, until I'm convinced of his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Presumption of Innocence; Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. It is a cardinal principle of our system of justice that every person accused of a crime is presumed to be innocent unless and until his or her guilt is established beyond a reasonable doubt. The presumption is not a mere formality.

Context:

I think it should be noted, that Liberal Left "activists" have rioted, burned cities to the ground, looted stores, obstructed traffic, etc, etc,... all in the name of justice and protest (for various reasons, including outside Trump rallies), and no political figurehead has ever been held personally responsible for those actions. In fact, to my knowledge, no Democratic figurehead has ever publicly discouraged or condemned such actions (which obviously, would be the right thing to do). In reality, Democrats have condoned such actions repeatedly. It seems to me, the issue is not about what's being done (wrong), but who's doing it. We need a consistent standard of behavior and justice system for everyone. Unfortunately for Trump and the Republicans, from a legal standpoint, they probably chose the wrong venue and event to finally vent their spleen.

To vent one's spleen means to air one's grievances, to make enraged complaints, or to express one's anger.

I think the perpetrators of January 6th were complete whack jobs. I would never support or condone such activity. However, up until now, I haven't seen anything concrete which proves that Trump had specifically ordered those specific actions beyond reasonable doubt. Words such as "We have to fight for our Freedom. We have to fight for our country" can mean many things to many people. We'll see what the prosecution submits as evidence going forward. The prosecution may produce evidence that will convince me of Trump's direct participation and intent.

This situation does prove one thing however...

Our Department of Justice is definitely partisan along party lines, and that's bad for everyone. The Judge presiding over Trump's case is a hardcore Democrat, and any fool knows that will work to his disadvantage. In contrast, some of the Republican candidates for Presidency have already said they will pardon Trump if they are elected. What does that tell you? Our system has become an absolute joke.

If you're a Republican politician, you're innocent with a Republican Judge, and guilty with a Democratic Judge. If you're a Democratic politician, you're innocent with a Democratic judge, and guilty with a Republican judge. 

If you're a Republican politician, you're impeached by the Democrats, and pardoned by your own Republicans. If you're a Democratic politician, you're impeached by the Republicans, and pardoned by your own Democrats. This nonsense isn't good for anyone. We've become a 3rd-world nation.

Maybe Charles Manson's opinion of our justice system was more accurate than we care to admit. Don't get me started on the disparity of justice for rich men versus poor men...

Kangaroo court is an informal pejorative term for a court that ignores recognized standards of law or justice, carries little or no official standing in the territory within which it resides, and is typically convened ad hoc. A kangaroo court may ignore due process and come to a predetermined conclusion.

Trump would do himself a HUGE favor if he simply stopped insulting and threatening the Judge, Prosecutor and potential witnesses on social media. It's like watching Charles Manson screw himself all over again. Manson lost his right to defend himself because of his antics, and Trump may get his bail revoked for the same reasons. Where is Irving Kanarek when you need him?? LMAO!!!

Wednesday, August 2, 2023

THE PROGRAM PEOPLE

The word 'programming' comes up repeatedly in the Manson saga.  And in the way it's used, I think they are referring to 'mind-control programming'

Helter Skelter, pg235 Bugliosi questioning Atkins at Grand Jury
Q: Did Charlie ask you to steal?
A: No, I took it upon myself. I was--we'd get programmed to do things.
Q: Programmed by Charlie?
A: By Charlie...

Helter Skelter, pg319
As with the others, I(Bugs) questioned Watkins about Manson's programming techniques.

Helter Skelter, pg326
According to Watkins, in this song Charlie "figured the Beatles were programming the black people to get it up, get in on, start doing it."

Helter Skelter, pg494
Because Kanarek had questioned Juan about Manson's "programming of Family members, I was able to bring in a conversation Manson had with Juan in which he explained that he had to "unprogram" his followers to remove the programming placed upon them by their parents, schools, churches, and society.

The Family, by Ed Sanders
pg94
The story is told how some of the family, evidently as part of the program to experience everything, revel in horse excrement.

pg151
...that great Manson trick of programming people while they were on LSD trips.

pg171
Guys like Sunshine Pierce and Joe and others left the Spahn Ranch because they found themselves slowly becoming one of those "program people" that Manson talked about. And who on earth really wants to become a zombie.

pg181
Manson became more and more involved with blending violence into his transactions. He seemed to be eager to see which of his "program people" would kill. ... One of Manson's potential "program people" was the Vietnam veteran..Juan Flynn.

pg184
Early in the day Manson would "program" the girls--give them a list of things to do.

pg190
Watson never made a move without Manson's "programming."

pg362
On the ride down to Los Angeles, Squeaky, according to legend, told the officers that Charlie had the girls perform fellatio with dogs as part of his mental-death program.


https://www.mansonblog.com/search?q=reflexion
Like Sadie and Brenda, Clem would turn a question back at the questioner, or give pat answers as a way of "reprogramming" himself.

Member of the Family: My Story of Charles Manson, Life Inside His Cult, and the Darkness that Ended the Sixties,by Dianne Lake
--After the attorneys were finished examining and cross-examining me, Charlie got my attention. He made full penetrating eye contact. "Were you programmed to answer?" he shouted.


LADA FILES Box54-2
pg2364 Manson: "I was programming him(Whitely) for something." ... "Sir, I didn't look at Mr. Whitely at anything but a brain that I could program."
pg2381 THE COURT: "What lies in his mind, I don't suppose any one of us knows, when he says that he wants to program Sergeant Whitely."

LADA files Box 46 vol32 pg133 Watkins:
"So the music was designed to draw them from San Francisco to the desert by programming them like you program a computer."

LADA files Box 46 vol 26 Grogan retrial Aug, 1971
pg417 Spahn visitor Dawn Quandt:
Q: After the Manson family arrived, did some change come over Clem? ..
A: A change of--he was in their power or their thoughts. ... he had a tendency to be programmed by them.

pg1015
Q(Weedman): Now, Charlie prophesized that the revolution was going to come, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Then why was it, according to his philosophy, that it was necessary to compose this music to program the girls to leave Haight-Asbury if the revolution was coming down anyway?.

LADA files Box 20 vol7011 Posten at Watson trial
Q: What did he say the Beatles were saying?
A: He said the Beatles were telling it like is and that they were programming the people to helter-skelter.

My Life With Charles Manson by Paul Watkins, Chapter 7
It wasn't that Clem was dumb, it was just that he adopted Charlie's program of playing the idiot (playing beneath the awareness of people) so completely that he became an idiot.

My Life With Charles Manson by Paul Watkins, Chapter 12
Meanwhile, we practiced our own music for hours, wrote new songs to operate beneath the level of people’s awareness and to program those “who were one in their minds,” to come to the desert.

My Life With Charles Manson by Paul Watkins, Chapter 15
Neither of us really know how to handle what was inside us; we’d both been so heavily programmed by that time that all natural impulses were trapped, blocked off.

My Life With Charles Manson by Paul Watkins, Chapter 23
Charlie...  had attempted to program me for this long before: “When Helter-Skelter comes down, I’ll be back in the joint, it’ll be up to you.”

My Life With Charles Manson by Paul Watkins, Chapter 23
Basically, Charlie’s trip was to program us all to submit: to give up our egos.... But generally, the girls were easier to program than the guys. It was easier for them to submit; they were more ingenuous and didn't have as far to fall, as much ego to drop off. They'd already been programmed into a form of submission by society.

Death to Pigs, by Robert Hendrickson, c.2011 pg277
Watkins: "He(Manson) always said, he said, "I'm gonna unprogram you and program you again," and that's what he did."

http://www.aboundinglove.org/main/images/bookPDFs/Mansons_Right_Hand_Man-small.pdf
Manson's Right Hand Man Speaks Out Charles "Tex" Watson c. 2012  pg20
I never heard Manson mention Scientology... I know he was into mind control and good at programming us with his beliefs.

Kasabian's attorney: "She said that all the girls felt as if they were computers for this man (Manson)." (10:40mark)

Death to Pigs, by Robert Hendrickson, pg244
Brooks: "Well, before when he put his motions in with it, all he had to do was start his motions and it's like, I would immediately turn on like a computer. Like, the button would be clicked and I'd become whatever machine or whatever tape was playing at the time."

The Mind Manipulators by Alan W. Scheflin c.1978
pg39
Many of the Family members have concluded that they were indeed hypnotized....
pg471
At her re-trial, former Manson cult follower Leslie Van Houten argued that she was a programmed dupe whose mind had been softened by LSD and then shaped to commit horrible, violent crimes without remorse.


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http://robertscourt.blogspot.com/2008/06/donate-today.html
If one examines the case closely, it becomes obvious that Manson used mind-control techniques such as hypnotism, LSD, and other types of mental programming to turn middle-class suburbanites into selfless killers...

https://www.freedommag.org/english/la/issue02/page12.htm
The Senate Select Committee’s investigation revealed drugging of unsuspecting targets, electric shocking to obliterate memory and “programming” individuals to kill ...
Submitted by Starviego. Thank you Starviego.